Did Judge Dugan go too far?

[unicorn]

At first, when I heard the FBI arrested a judge for helping an illegal alien, I thought "...Another one of those Trump administration over-reaches...". Then, when I looked more into it, I felt a lot less sympathy for her. It's not the fact that he was still in the country well after a decade of being ordered to leave. Rather, it was the combination with his other, violent crimes, including battery and domestic abuse, which made me lose sympathy.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-hannah-dugan-arrested-fbi-allegedly-helping-undocumented/story?id=121161497

..."Just now, the FBI arrested Judge Hannah Dugan out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin on charges of obstruction — after evidence of Judge Dugan obstructing an immigration arrest operation last week," Patel said in the new post. "We believe Judge Dugan intentionally misdirected federal agents away from the subject to be arrested in her courthouse, Eduardo Flores Ruiz, allowing the subject — an illegal alien — to evade arrest."  ... Federal prosecutors allege Flores-Ruiz illegally entered the U.S. from Mexico and was issued an Expedited Removal order in January 2013, according to a criminal complaint. Bondi alleged that Flores-Ruiz beat his roommate and a woman so badly that they needed to be hospitalized and that he continued to be belligerent in the hospital before his arrest. According to the complaint, Dugan allegedly sought to help Flores-Ruiz evade arrest by federal officers from an ICE task force...

"The courtroom deputy then saw Judge DUGAN get up and heard Judge DUGAN say something like 'Wait, come with me,'" the complaint states. "Despite having been advised of the administrative warrant for the arrest of Flores-Ruiz, Judge DUGAN then escorted Flores-Ruiz and his counsel out of the courtroom through the 'jury door,' which leads to a nonpublic area of the courthouse."...After he was encountered by FBI and DEA agents outside the building, Flores-Ruiz "turned around and sprinted down the street" before he was ultimately apprehended, according to the complaint...

It would be one thing if his only crime were being in the country illegally. But the violent crimes add another, more significant layer, at least as far as I'm concerned. Judges shouldn't consider themselves immune from consequences if they break the law. 

[Suckrates]

40 minutes ago, unicorn said:

At first, when I heard the FBI arrested a judge for helping an illegal alien, I thought "...Another one of those Trump administration over-reaches...". Then, when I looked more into it, I felt a lot less sympathy for her. It's not the fact that he was still in the country well after a decade of being ordered to leave. Rather, it was the combination with his other, violent crimes, including battery and domestic abuse, which made me lose sympathy.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-hannah-dugan-arrested-fbi-allegedly-helping-undocumented/story?id=121161497

..."Just now, the FBI arrested Judge Hannah Dugan out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin on charges of obstruction — after evidence of Judge Dugan obstructing an immigration arrest operation last week," Patel said in the new post. "We believe Judge Dugan intentionally misdirected federal agents away from the subject to be arrested in her courthouse, Eduardo Flores Ruiz, allowing the subject — an illegal alien — to evade arrest."  ... Federal prosecutors allege Flores-Ruiz illegally entered the U.S. from Mexico and was issued an Expedited Removal order in January 2013, according to a criminal complaint. Bondi alleged that Flores-Ruiz beat his roommate and a woman so badly that they needed to be hospitalized and that he continued to be belligerent in the hospital before his arrest. According to the complaint, Dugan allegedly sought to help Flores-Ruiz evade arrest by federal officers from an ICE task force...

"The courtroom deputy then saw Judge DUGAN get up and heard Judge DUGAN say something like 'Wait, come with me,'" the complaint states. "Despite having been advised of the administrative warrant for the arrest of Flores-Ruiz, Judge DUGAN then escorted Flores-Ruiz and his counsel out of the courtroom through the 'jury door,' which leads to a nonpublic area of the courthouse."...After he was encountered by FBI and DEA agents outside the building, Flores-Ruiz "turned around and sprinted down the street" before he was ultimately apprehended, according to the complaint...

It would be one thing if his only crime were being in the country illegally. But the violent crimes add another, more significant layer, at least as far as I'm concerned. Judges shouldn't consider themselves immune from consequences if they break the law. 

She overreached, and acted outside her scope of duty AND the rule of law....   For that, there should be consequences,  but the Trump administration is so chaotic,  everything gets mixed up and becomes the same issue in public perception.   And I think Trump wants us to be CONFUSED..?.   

[Lucky]

When you have ICE closing in on the Courthouse, you sometimes decide to help the ones they plan to torture and deport to some country that they have never been to. I think the Judge acted for the greater good.

[unicorn]

4 hours ago, Lucky said:

When you have ICE closing in on the Courthouse, you sometimes decide to help the ones they plan to torture and deport to some country that they have never been to. I think the Judge acted for the greater good.

Well, maybe if he were arrested for something minor such as petty theft or reckless driving, but do you really feel that he deserves mercy after beating two people so badly they needed hospitalization? For the most part, I disagree with almost everything the Trump administration does. However, it's sentiments such as these which I think incensed the public enough to elect the orange buffoon--obviously with tragic consequences for not just the US, but probably the entire planet. 

[stevenkesslar]

6 hours ago, unicorn said:

Well, maybe if he were arrested for something minor such as petty theft or reckless driving, but do you really feel that he deserves mercy after beating two people so badly they needed hospitalization? For the most part, I disagree with almost everything the Trump administration does. However, it's sentiments such as these which I think incensed the public enough to elect the orange buffoon--obviously with tragic consequences for not just the US, but probably the entire planet. 

The polls on this are interesting, and a bit surprising.

So first I will make three points about why you are right, and then cite polls that say you are wrong.

1.  No one likes a wife beater or a woman beater.  A wife beater staying illegally in the country is worse.  A wife beater who also sends other to the hospital should be easy to ship off to be tortured in some place no one wants to go.

2.  This was a massive unforced error.  It was clear for at least a few years that chaos at the border that spread across the country was becoming more and more unpopular specifically among Democratic or D-leaning Independent constituencies in blue cities or states.  Trump's pollsters clearly figured that out, and honed in on it in all kinds of ways.

3.  The interest groups pushing the policies Trump lambastes are the ones Ruy Teixiera despises and says have to be purged.  Because they insist on forcing Democrats to adopt positions that are wildly unpopular.  He makes a good argument that even Hispanics don't buy what the pro-immigration interest groups push.  Which is why more and more will vote Republican.

So for all these reasons, these people just suck.  Please.  Torture them. They deserve what Joel just got in The Last Of Us.  😨  

And yet, survey says:

Trump is getting negative marks on immigration, polls show

Quote

The Post-Ipsos poll dove into more specific recent actions by the administration, asking Americans about Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Salvadoran native who was deported to El Salvador by mistake. Their polling showed a plurality of respondents at 42 percent support his return to the U.S. The survey also revealed a majority 51 percent opposition to sending immigrants accused of being gang members to El Salvador without a court hearing.

It actually surprised me that half the country would say it's wrong to send people who somebody says are gang members to El Salvador with no court hearing.  It makes perfect sense to me that most judges, who probably think courts do support the rule of law, would say even a wife beater (Garcia) or a woman beater deserves a court hearing.  I would guess a majority of Americans might be fine with overlooking due process for gang members who do bad things.  But maybe not.

There is nothing "woke" or radical about a conservative SCOTUS telling Trump he went too far. Kudos to them.  It is probably partly why the polls are shifting.

 

 

[unicorn]

8 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

...

So first I will make three points about why you are right, and then cite polls that say you are wrong....

There is nothing "woke" or radical about a conservative SCOTUS telling Trump he went too far...

Even if it were the case that polls determine right from wrong (which they don't), your statements are misleading, as I very much hope you know. The polls are about Trump's general behavior towards deportation, which any reasonable person would agree are outrageous. There are no polls (as far as I'm aware) regarding this particular person. This person HAS had his day in the immigration court, and HAS had due process there. He has an active deportation order. As you also know, I was not defending Trump's usual behavior in the immigration sphere. Even the Thomalitos of the SCOTUS agree that snatching legal permanent residents from the streets and sending them to El Salvador without due process is super-illegal. However, in this case the defendant did have due process (over a decade ago, when Obama was POTUS), and he clearly represents a danger to society. You're confounding two completely separate issues (as I hope you know, unless there's seriously something wrong). 

[stevenkesslar]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

There are no polls (as far as I'm aware) regarding this particular person. This person HAS had his day in the immigration court, and HAS had due process there. He has an active deportation order. As you also know, I was not defending Trump's usual behavior in the immigration sphere.

Correct.  There are no polls about this particular situation.   And I specifically avoided commenting on it because, if I were on a jury, I would want to know about the details.

The relevant part of the polls, to me, is this.  There is more concern about due process, in general, than I might have guessed.  Forget about MAGA diehards.  I might guess some lifelong Democrat in NYC says there is too much crime.  So yeah.  If some wife beater who has been in this country for more than a fucking decade illegally is sent to El Salvador to be tortured, with no due process, I have no problem with that.  Hasta la vista, pendejo!

In terms of this specific case, I have no clue.  I'll repeat what I said.  If I were looking at it from the perspective of a judge, I would probably think the right way to do this is the legal process needs to play out.  If I were Tom Homan, and I believe what I read and hear 24/7, the right way to do this is just deport the son of a bitch.  He is a gang member.  He beats his wife.  He is a terrorist.  He is an illegal.  Fuck him.  He deserves no due process. 

I'm not sure whether I even fairly characterized what a judge would think, or what Tom Homan thinks.  I do think Tom Homan completely failed in his first act, in Trump's first term.  And he got tens of thousands of Americans killed by letting fentanyl flood through the borders.  So I am not particularly sympathetic to anything he says, or any "deport them now, no questions asked" strategy. It seems like a majority of Americans agree with me.

But, if you and I were on the jury in this particular case, I think we are both saying we would want to be fair, and we would want more information.  Was it reasonable for ICE to arrest the judge?  Based on what you posted, it seems so.  I hope the judge was aware of the risk she was taking when she did what she allegedly did. Does she deserve her day in court?  Yes, of course.

I'll also repeat that, in general, as a partisan and loyal Democrat, I think my party fucked up royally.   These are unforced errors.  Whatever the facts are, which I do not know, it sounds awful to say we are the party that wants wife beaters to run loose lawlessly.  That is not what anyone is actually saying.  But that is how Trump and his pollsters make it sound.

The good news to me, as a partisan and loyal Democrat, is that some leaders of my party are saying, "We are not for wife beaters.  We are for due process."   A conservative SCOTUS is saying the same thing.  And the polls suggest that resonates with a bare majority of Americans.

 

[Suckrates]

3 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

Correct.  There are no polls about this particular situation.   And I specifically avoided commenting on it because, if I were on a jury, I would want to know about the details.

The relevant part of the polls, to me, is this.  There is more concern about due process, in general, than I might have guessed.  Forget about MAGA diehards.  I might guess some lifelong Democrat in NYC says there is too much crime.  So yeah.  If some wife beater who has been in this country for more than a fucking decade illegally is sent to El Salvador to be tortured, with no due process, I have no problem with that.  Hasta la vista, pendejo!

In terms of this specific case, I have no clue.  I'll repeat what I said.  If I were looking at it from the perspective of a judge, I would probably think the right way to do this is the legal process needs to play out.  If I were Tom Homan, and I believe what I read and hear 24/7, the right way to do this is just deport the son of a bitch.  He is a gang member.  He beats his wife.  He is a terrorist.  He is an illegal.  Fuck him.  He deserves no due process. 

I'm not sure whether I even fairly characterized what a judge would think, or what Tom Homan thinks.  I do think Tom Homan completely failed in his first act, in Trump's first term.  And he got tens of thousands of Americans killed by letting fentanyl flood through the borders.  So I am not particularly sympathetic to anything he says, or any "deport them now, no questions asked" strategy. It seems like a majority of Americans agree with me.

But, if you and I were on the jury in this particular case, I think we are both saying we would want to be fair, and we would want more information.

I'll also repeat that, in general, as a partisan and loyal Democrat, I think my party fucked up royally.   These are unforced errors.  Whatever the facts are, which I do not know, it sounds awful to say we are the party that wants wife beaters to run loose lawlessly.  That is not what anyone is actually saying.  But that is how Trump and his pollsters make it sound.

The good news to me, as a partisan and loyal Democrat, is that some leaders of my party are saying, "We are not for wife beaters.  We are for due process."   A conservative SCOTUS is saying the same thing.  And the polls suggest that resonates with a bare majority of Americans.

Eventhough "due process" is a principle and legal process as American as apple pie,  leave it to the Supreme Court to DISAPPOINT you when the shit hits the fan....

I am NOT betting they will make the "right" call here....although it should be a slam dunk, no brainer. 

Sis, you have more faith that I do,  but all these years of Trump Dump have "soured" me.