April 2025 Bangkok Trip Report

[PeterRS]

14 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

 1 from Shan 

 1 from Mon - but he kept telling me that he identifies as a Karen

 1 from Karen

 1 from Myanma (Yangon)

I asked them what would it take for the 7 states of Myanmar to stop fighting with each other and to unite the country?  They could not really articulate what would be required.

So, I asked them if perhaps for Myanmar - it would be better if they went the way of the former Yugoslavia - break up into 7 distinct countries instead of one Myanmar that continues to have tribal factious battles for decades?

They sharply told me that it would be better if Myanmar remained in-tact instead of 7 distinct countries but they could not tell me how to make this civil war stop. 

WIth all respect, I think asking any individual barboy about the politics in his country is a really bad idea, especially re Myanmar where the civil war which many commentators talk about as having started after the 2021 coup, actually started with the 1962 coup. 

Myanmar is a hugely complex country with a hugely complex history. First there are 14 States - not 7. Second, in general terms, they are not fighting each other. The primary objective of all the State militias is to get rid of the ruling junta. Can you imagine any ruling government which continued its air offensive against the militias in the immediate aftermath of the dreadful earthquake last month? Is it any wonder most in that very large country loathe the national government and want change?

Third, as I have ponted out before in these forums, Myanmar is made up of 135 different ethnic groups. In terms of population China is 26 times larger but has only 56 different ethnic groups. Each ethnic group in Myanmar has its own objectives, even those belonging to just one State.

Fourth, the four States you list are all very different. Shan State is the largest, the closest to the longest part of the border with China and therefore has been historically open to a great deal of Chinese influence. The Shan are a fiercely proud people. The Karens in Kayin State, however, are probably the most western oriented of the States, despite being geographically one of the closest to the east. This is a result of extensive British influence in the colonial period when many British settled there and there remains a higher proportion of Christians than elsewhere.

Fifth, in general one reason for the country's problems is the result of the utterly disastrous rule by the British. Colonialism created all manner of problems for many countries during the colonial era. Almost nowhere on the planet did it destroy a country as completely as it did Burma. It never even considered Burma a separate country until 1937. Before then it called Burma a division of India and its capital Rangoon as "a suburb of Madras".

Sixth, despite their differences, all Burmese are extremely proud of the country's long history. How many in the west are aware that for a century during the Taungoo Dynasty its Empire was the largest ever in South East Asia, greater even than the much earlier Angkor Empire?

Lastly, do you think any of them actually realised the significance of Yugoslavia, a 'country' born out of world War I and kept in place largely as a result of the Cold War before collapsing before any of them were born?

1 hour ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

I am truely interested to hear from actual Myanmar citizens about why this internal conflict cannot end. Only those from within Myanmar would know.

Sorry again, but no one from Myanmar can tell you why "this eternal conflict cannot end". That is typical western thinking and I'm certain we'd all love to know. Other than saying everyone wants to get rid of the junta, four guys from four States certainly cannot tell you, so complicated are the reasons for the conflict, the history and the international pieces on that particular chess board. Even once the junta is despatched - if ever Russia, China and other players allow that to happen - there is absolutely no one presently in the country who could unify it. In an earlier thread about the history of the country, I have tried to explain why this is.

[PeterRS]

I'm sorry there is one issue I did not cover in my earlier post. This is conscription. These boys from Myanmar are almost certainly here either illegally or on temporary visas of some sort. They will eventually have to return to Myanmar and do not want anyone informing on them about things they might have said outside the country - however unlikely. Myanmar is a country ruled by fear as much as the junta! Returning means they will be liable to be called up to serve in the national army, the one that is slowly being defeated in many parts of the country with consequent loss of life. The alternative is to fight with one of their local militias or go underground. But even in Yangon, army units are patrolling streets after dark to pressgang any they come across and force them into the military. As my Myanmar friends tell me, the last thing they want is to end up dead killed by a fellow Burmese.

The latest militia victory came two days ago when resistance groups led by the Kachin Independence Army seized full control of the strategic northern Sagaing town after eight months of fighting. All the time junta fighter bombers were trying to avoid the Resistance Army from winning the battle. The KIA and its allied forces have now captured over 300 junta outposts and bases in Kachin State. This is the northernmost State with an almost equally long border with China as the Shan State.

https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/war-against-the-junta/kia-led-force-seizes-indaw-from-myanmar-junta-after-8-month-battle.html

[Moses]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

Second, in general terms, they are not fighting each other.

Well, actually they do - local elites control local "armies" - I prefer to name them "gangs". And by hands of these gangs they are fighting not only with central government, but also each other for to control local natural resources: gems and so on. 

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

Fifth, in general one reason for the country's problems is the result of the utterly disastrous rule by the British.

+1000

[Moses]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

will be liable to be called up to serve in the national army

... or forced to fight on the side of local gangs "for the freedom and democracy" - read it as "for rights of local elites to control local resources".

(additional comment) That why so many Burmese flee from country - they don't want to take ether side, because they know: it isn't war for real democracy, it is war for who will control resources.

[bkkmfj2648]

Thank you to @PeterRS and @Moses to shed some light on the causes for this internal Myanmar strife and never ending civil war.

Do either of you think that in our lifetime (I am already 63) that we will see a form of peace that would allow us to vacation in Myanmar again? 

This is one of my bucket list dreams.

[Moses]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Even once the junta is despatched - if ever Russia, China and other players allow that to happen - there is absolutely no one presently in the country who could unify it.

And that exactly means what junta is currently the only power in Myanmar which keeps Myanmar as a solid state.

[Raposa]

It’s easy to fall into the trap of overcomplicating the situation in Myanmar by relying on experts who emphasize the complexity of the political dynamics, sometimes to elevate their own role in explaining the issue. But, I believe it’s important to encourage more open discussion and learning about Myanmar’s politics. While discussing the country’s politics with locals inside Myanmar may not be advisable, especially considering the risks involved, there’s value in engaging with those who live outside of Myanmar. However, it’s essential to keep in mind that the diaspora has its own perspective, which may not align with the views of those still living under the current regime.

What follows is my interpretation of the situation, but I acknowledge there are many other valid perspectives out there, some of which may offer deeper insights.

Dragon and Koi

It’s important to note that the people you guys have interacted with in places like Dragon and Koi aren’t representative of the average Myanmar citizen. These are middle-class individuals with education and solid English skills, a far cry from the majority of the population.

These individuals often don’t need to return to Myanmar to renew their visa exemptions in Thailand; they typically travel to neighboring ASEAN countries like Laos and then return. Furthermore, the military’s conscription efforts mostly target working-class boys, not the educated middle class. There’s a clear class dimension, which shouldn’t be overlooked when we discuss the situation.

Ethnic Resistance

One of the more complex aspects of the situation is the diverse objectives of the various ethnic resistance organizations (EROs) in Myanmar. Not all of them are focused on overthrowing the military junta. Many of these groups are primarily concerned with securing greater autonomy for their respective ethnic groups, and some even see the Wa state, which is heavily influenced by China, as a model for their future.

For instance, the Arakan Army (AA) has long talked about independence, but their leadership seems more pragmatic in recent years, likely recognizing that outright independence may not be feasible. Other EROs are more flexible in their approach and may even shift allegiances depending on their current interests. Some of these groups, however, are far less focused on ideals of democracy and are often criticized for engaging in illegal activities, such as running drug cartels.

It’s crucial to understand that not all resistance organizations have the same goals, and the majority aren’t necessarily aligned with the West’s ideal of democracy. Some are willing to negotiate with the junta, and a few might even see collaboration as a means to further their ethnic agendas.

The Role of Myanmar’s Neighbors

Myanmar’s neighbors, particularly Thailand, China, and India, have no interest in seeing the country fragment in a manner similar to the breakup of Yugoslavia. These countries have historically preferred to engage with Myanmar’s military junta and have tried to manipulate their relationships with ethnic groups to serve their own interests. This geopolitical dimension further complicates the situation, as external powers are often more concerned with maintaining stability and their own influence than with promoting democratic values or supporting the aspirations of Myanmar’s ethnic minorities.

British Colonialism 

The current military junta has been quick to point to British colonialism as the root cause of Myanmar’s political turmoil. While British colonial rule did leave a legacy of exploitation and division, it is misleading to suggest that colonialism is the sole or even the primary cause of the current predicament. The junta’s narrative conveniently ignores decades of their own economic mismanagement, the system of ethnocracy they’ve perpetuated, and their brutal suppression of minority groups.

The military coup in 2021 and the subsequent violent response to pro-democracy movements cannot be solely blamed on colonialism. These events reflect deeper issues: the failure of Myanmar’s post-independence political system to develop democratic norms, the entrenched militarization of society, and the dominance of the Bamar-dominated military establishment. The ongoing struggles for democracy and human rights in Myanmar are far more a result of these internal issues than a continuation of colonial legacies.

Going forward

While British colonialism undoubtedly influenced Myanmar’s early political development, we must understand that the current crisis is the product of a complex mix of factors that extend well beyond colonialism. The post-independence period saw political mismanagement, the disastrous “Burmese socialism” experiment under Ne Win, military domination, and the exacerbation of ethnic divisions—all of which played significant roles in shaping Myanmar’s present political landscape.

The Chinese Civil War, which spilled over into Burmese territory, was another crucial event that set the stage for the 1962 military coup. These historical developments, along with the rise of the military as a powerful political force, are much more significant in understanding Myanmar’s current political situation than the distant legacy of British colonial rule.
 

PeterRS points to the civil war as having started decades before 2021. This is true but ignores a unique characteristic of the present situation. This civil war encompasses also the Bamar people, which is the majority ethnic group, against the military. This is unique. Normally the Bamar majority would be relative unaware of the plight of the ethnic minorities prior to 2021.

A nation unfinished, not broken

Ultimately, Myanmar remains an unfinished country, and there is no single force or leader who can unify it inclusively at present. That being said, the possibility of a more unified, democratic Myanmar in the future is not entirely out of the question. However, this will require addressing the deep-rooted ethnic divisions, the militarized state, and the lack of genuine political reforms that have persisted for decades.

 

[Raposa]

1 hour ago, Moses said:

Well, actually they do - local elites control local "armies" - I prefer to name them "gangs". And by hands of these gangs they are fighting not only with central government, but also each other for to control local natural resources: gems and so on. 

Some like the Arakan Army are highly professional and are beating the Myanmar military every day. Others fit your description better, gangs controlled by local drug lords.

[Raposa]

10 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

I hope you're not trying to say that they are NOT  'well-educated' based on your discussions with them. It's very likely that they could  have answered your questions. They just didn't want  to discuss political questions with you, a foreigner whom they'd never met before.

They also didn't want to answer your political questions in front of three other guys from Myanmar at the same table. 

Would you (a white man) have asked a Thai guy what he truly thinks of the king, the government and the security forces -- in front of other Thai guys? There's your answer. ☺️

Your response is exactly the kind of patronizing, overly sensitive attitude that has led to the growing backlash against “woke” thinking around the world. You’re so preoccupied with optics and imagined offenses that you’ve overlooked the actual substance of the discussion.

Suggesting that someone shouldn’t even attempt a conversation because of their nationality is not only intellectually lazy—it’s hypocritical. You accuse others of being intrusive for asking questions, yet you feel perfectly entitled to project motives, judge intent, and shut down dialogue without any real evidence. That’s not empathy; it’s self-righteous gatekeeping.

Not every interaction needs to be wrapped in layers of ideological overanalysis. Sometimes people simply avoid tough questions because they don’t know how to answer—or don’t want to expose a lack of critical thought. Stop pretending it’s always about some grand power dynamic. This mindset is exactly why so many are tuning out of these tedious, over-politicized narratives.

[jason1975]

18 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

They are very nice guys - but too twinky and kind of feminine for my tastes - so I did not wait until 3am to take one home - as the American owner does not let them be offed during the operating hours of the bar.

 

Agree that the Myanmar guys are nice. I know one who moved to work in Freshboys. Very good looking! 🥰🥰🥰

[PeterRS]

4 hours ago, Moses said:

Well, actually they do - local elites control local "armies" - I prefer to name them "gangs". And by hands of these gangs they are fighting not only with central government, but also each other for to control local natural resources: gems and so on.

You may call them gangs, but the vast majority of Burmese do not - and certainly do not consider themselves as gangs. They are fighting for freedom, first and foremost, from a succession of military juntas. A small handful, perhaps, see control of natural resources as a secondary aim - but the numbers are tiny compared to the total in the militias. If anyone, it is the Chinese in the Shan State who have for years been after the country's raw materials and other resources - and that has not stopped.

3 hours ago, Raposa said:

It’s easy to fall into the trap of overcomplicating the situation in Myanmar by relying on experts who emphasize the complexity of the political dynamics, sometimes to elevate their own role in explaining the issue. But, I believe it’s important to encourage more open discussion and learning about Myanmar’s politics. While discussing the country’s politics with locals inside Myanmar may not be advisable, especially considering the risks involved, there’s value in engaging with those who live outside of Myanmar. However, it’s essential to keep in mind that the diaspora has its own perspective, which may not align with the views of those still living under the current regime.

I absolutely cannot agree. The situation in Myanmar is hugely complicated and that is not merely the view of your so-called "experts". I would certainly trust a small number of Myanmar historians like Thant Mint-U to provide a very detailed and accurate picture. It seems you are suggesting that the situation in Myanmar is not as complex as I and others have suggested. With respect, perhaps you might therefore tell us more about your own detailed and extensive research that brings you to that view.

As far as engaging in discussion with those Burmese outside the country, the fact is that almost no-one has much clue about what is going on within, and this is made more difficult by the day-to-day changes we hear little about. As I have written before, there are about 300 Myanmar journalists camped out near Mae Sot who manfully bring to the world as much news as they can from inside the country. Trump's slashing of USAID means that many now work for either penuts or nothing at all. I have written a book about a boy born in the Shan State in the year 2000. He is now in Switzerland. Three of his siblings have managed to flee to Thailand but his oldest sister and father are still in the country. Typical of the average Myanmar citizens, they have little clue about what is going on within the country as a whole - merely their own small district.

3 hours ago, Raposa said:

Dragon and Koi

Furthermore, the military’s conscription efforts mostly target working-class boys, not the educated middle class. There’s a clear class dimension, which shouldn’t be overlooked when we discuss the situation.

That is just not true! The military conscription law covers all males between 18 and 35 - and is likely to have the upper age limit further extended. If Burmese live officially overseas, they can only get new passports if they show certificates either proving their service in the military or a specific reason for not serving. Those merely renewing work papers will have to pay a new tax to the junta government. Some 3 million Burmese work legally in Thailand. If they are illegals in non-essential work, they better hope they are not caught because the Thai government has not been slow in deporting Burmese back to Myanmar. As Roisai Wongsuban, a policy advocate for a Thai NGO said in January, "While all nationalities face similar risks, Myanmar nationals face dual risks - both political opposition groups and ordinary workers uninvolved in politics. If deported, they might be drafted into military service, risking their lives." 

https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/thai/myanmar-refugees-thailand-migrants-01252025163854.html

3 hours ago, Raposa said:

British Colonialism 

The current military junta has been quick to point to British colonialism as the root cause of Myanmar’s political turmoil. While British colonial rule did leave a legacy of exploitation and division, it is misleading to suggest that colonialism is the sole or even the primary cause of the current predicament. The junta’s narrative conveniently ignores decades of their own economic mismanagement, the system of ethnocracy they’ve perpetuated, and their brutal suppression of minority groups.

I agree with the point you make in your last sentence. But even to suggest "it is misleading that colonialism is the sole or even the primary cause of the current predicament" is absolutely untrue! It is the primary truth! Do you really know anything about Myanmar before and during the British colonial era? Are you aware that the British tore the country apart in terms of governance, economics and religion - all for profit of the British. Are you aware of King Mindon's major reforms for the country which effectively made it the most powerful monarchy in South-East Asia? Are you aware that in the three wars against the British, Mindon's successor Thibaw in the capital Mandalay was so concerned about the British bringing vast numbers of Indians into the lower part of the country they then controlled, that he asked the French for help in getting the British out? Are you aware that Randolph Churchill, Winston's father and at that time Britain's Secretary of State for India, was so infuriated by this he ordered 10,000 British troops to sail up the Irrawaddy and dethrone Thibaw who became Burma's last king?

Are you aware that the British terminated the millennia-old alliance between Buddhism and governance of the country? Are you aware that the British destroyed the hitherto self-sufficient economy of  Burma? Are you aware that the British uprooted the extensive mangrove forests in the irrawaddy Delta to make way for a vast increase in rice farms? The opening of the Suez Canal had created new markets for rice and these the British intended to and did exploit making Burma the largest rice exporter in the world. Are you aware that this resulted in soaring land values and major inflation? Are you aware that the British allowed Indian and Chinese merchants to control the rice trade? Cheaper labour from India was then imported resulting in massive unemployment amongst the native Burmese? Are you aware at the beginning of the 20th century, more than 250,000 Indians each year were flocking to Myanmar to work? Are you aware that the governance of the country was in the hands of the British and Indians, without any native Burmese?

One who witnessed the destruction of Burma by the British was one of their own. Eric Blair had been born to a poor family in Bengal. Thanks to a scholarship he was educated in England at Eton before returning to work in the Burma colonial police force. Blair took the trouble to learn Burmese, but he hated his time there. He hated the corruption. He was devastated at how Britain was destroying the country. After five years Blair left Burma and became a writer. In his most famous novel, he wrote, "“Power is tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing.” He learned that from his time in Burma. His name as a writer is George Orwell and that novel is "1984".

3 hours ago, Raposa said:

Going forward

The Chinese Civil War, which spilled over into Burmese territory, was another crucial event that set the stage for the 1962 military coup.

That is another wholly inaccurate statement. The Chinese Civil War started in 1927 and continued with a short WWII break until the communists won in 1949. Communism in China was a fact 13 years before the 1962 military coup. Communism or fear of it had virtually no role whatever in the Burma coup. As in many countries, it was student uprisings that started that ball rolling. But it was another colonial act which spurred events. Prior to departing the country, under the Panglong Agreement the British colonial government had promised the huge Shan State (almost four times the size of Switzerland) independence within a united Burma ten years after the country's independence. The army was against the agreement and determined that it be torn up. The army feared any form of outside influence if any State broke away. After rebellions in the Shan State, the Panglong Agreement was shredded.

I could go on and on. I spent much of last year researching Myanmar and its long history. I am no expert, but I believe I now know vastly more than I  did before I started. I am happy to argue further on specific issues, but generalisations are rather a waste of time in my view.

[PeterRS]

4 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Do either of you think that in our lifetime (I am already 63) that we will see a form of peace that would allow us to vacation in Myanmar again? 

This is one of my bucket list dreams.

To your question I have to say I have absolutely no idea, very sadly. As I wrote in an earlier post, the huge problem facing Myanmar should the militias win and the army is truly beaten is - is there an individual with the power and charisma who can both lead and unify? At one time I think we all assumed that Aung San Suu Kyi would fill that role. Sadly she is now thoroughly discredited and disliked, both within Myanmar and around the world. Besides she is over 80 and, as one who initially admired her and ended up speaking out quite forcibly against her, President Bill Clinton's once Ambassador at Large in his diplomacy with North Korea, basically told the world she "lacked moral leadership."

The situation is somewhat similar to what existed in the mid-1930s. Britain then still regarded Burma as a Province of India. Many students actively felt betrayed by this and formed associations to find a way to gain independence. Ms. Aung's father, Aung San, became this group's natural leader. As war approached, Aung had taken note of the Japanese successes in China. He was almost certain that the Japanese intended to widen its war in Asia. So he spent a year in Japan, learning the language and studying its military methods. When the Japanese did invade Burma, General Aung believed that they did so primarily as a route to India where they intended to foment rebellion against the British. He sided with the invaders and became the second most important man in the Japanese occupying force. In that role, he was effectively fighting the Karens from Kayin State who fought on the side of the British. It was only when Aung realised he had been duped and that the Japanese were intent just as much in pillaging and raping Burma that he changed sides.

At this time, the British had started their slow return to Burma. In London it was realised that the end of Empire was on the horizon and Burma would be one of the first countries to be granted independence. Winston Churchill was furious at General Aung whom he believed had  been a traitor who should be tried and hung. He might have got his way had it not been for Admiral Louis Mountbatten, then the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in South-East Asia. Mountbatten argued with Churchill that such a move was a recipe for disaster. He considered that only one man was capable of keeping Burma together as a country - General Aung. Mountbatten got his way. In the April 1947 General Election four months prior to independence, Aung's party won 176 of the 210 seats. Three months later Aung was having a cabinet meeting when four armed men burst into the chamber and asassinated Aung and six of his ministers.

Although the country's pre-war Prime Minister U Saw was arrested and hanged for his participation in the murders, the guns and buillets used had come from a cache of British armaments. Rumours persist to this day of British involvement. Certainly there were some shady British ex-army characters who had joined the Burmese police about whom much has been written. One had allegedly been killed in 1950 but was then found to have been spirited back to Britain from Bangkok in 1955 using false papers! Britain's Secret Service monitored a group based in London interested in Burmese affairs. The fact that most of the documents remain sealed in the Brtish archives suggests - although there is to date no proof - that Britain could have been more heavily involved. All that can be assumed is that there were powerful people in Britain who wanted a different course for an independent Burma.

Balloons Over Bagan

Although considerably older than you, that also remains one of the few items on my bucket list. I have been told that some of the temples were almost certainly affected by the earthquake. The last major quake in 2016 sadly did considerable damage.

[Raposa]

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

That is another wholly inaccurate statement. The Chinese Civil War started in 1927 and continued with a short WWII break until the communists won in 1949. Communism in China was a fact 13 years before the 1962 military coup.

I have to disagree with your assessment. While it’s true that the Chinese Civil War technically ended in 1949 (lets just go with the conventional view here), its consequences certainly did not. In fact, the presence of the KMT in Burma after their defeat by the Communists was a crucial factor that shaped the military dynamics in Myanmar, directly influencing the events leading up to the 1962 coup. My line of argument is about how the presence of the KMT built the capacity and the mindset of the tatmadaw, that was until the 1950s nothing more than a colonial constabulary force.

In 1950, thousands of KMT troops, rather than surrendering, fled into Burma’s Shan State, where they established bases and created an extraterritorial military presence. These KMT forces, under General Li Mi, were effectively running their own mini-state on Burmese soil. The Tatmadaw, under General Ne Win, was forced to confront this violation of Burma’s sovereignty head-on, despite already being stretched thin by internal rebellions. This wasn’t just a border skirmish; it was a serious conflict that lasted years, forcing the Tatmadaw to adapt rapidly. The military was no longer just fighting insurgents—it was gaining valuable experience in counterinsurgency and modern warfare, learning how to coordinate large-scale operations in difficult terrain, and effectively building the institutional capacity that would later allow it to seize power.

By the mid-1950s, the Tatmadaw had become a battle-hardened force with growing confidence. The military’s success against the KMT reinforced its role as the “protector of the nation,” a narrative that solidified its increasing political power. The military’s victories, especially the success of Operation Bayintnaung, gave the Tatmadaw significant prestige and positioned it as the only institution capable of holding Myanmar together, particularly in contrast to the feckless civilian government, which failed to deliver on critical issues like security and ethnic autonomy.

Your argument about the Panglong Agreement is valid, but it overlooks the critical role the KMT conflict played in shaping the Tatmadaw’s power. The military’s victories against the KMT—backed by foreign powers—directly contributed to its belief that it alone could guarantee Myanmar’s survival. By the time the Panglong Agreement was undermined, the military had already consolidated significant political and military power, and had little trust in the civilian government’s ability to manage the country.

The KMT issue did more than just create military tensions—it was the crucible in which the modern Myanmar military was forged. This conflict set the stage for the 1962 coup by giving the military both the confidence and the institutional power it needed to take over. While the army may have used the Panglong Agreement as a convenient excuse, its real motivation was the military’s own growing belief that civilian leadership was ineffectual and incapable of safeguarding the nation.

Whole former KMT villages remain on Thai soil and to this day there is a strong Taiwanese presence in Myanmar.
 

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

But even to suggest "it is misleading that colonialism is the sole or even the primary cause of the current predicament" is absolutely untrue! It is the primary truth! Do you really know anything about Myanmar before and during the British colonial era? Are you aware that the British tore the country apart in terms of governance, economics and religion - all for profit of the British. Are you aware of King Mindon's major reforms for the country which effectively made it the most powerful monarchy in South-East Asia? Are you aware that in the three wars against the British, Mindon's successor Thibaw in the capital Mandalay was so concerned about the British bringing vast numbers of Indians into the lower part of the country they then controlled, that he asked the French for help in getting the British out? Are you aware that Randolph Churchill, Winston's father and at that time Britain's Secretary of State for India, was so infuriated by this he ordered 10,000 British troops to sail up the Irrawaddy and dethrone Thibaw who became Burma's last king?

I am very familiar with everything you write here. I have even visited Ratnagiri in India to pay my respects at King Thibaw’s tomb there. Where we differ is in the interpretation of those events.
 

 

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

That is just not true! The military conscription law covers all males between 18 and 35 - and is likely to have the upper age limit further extended.

We both agree about the law. However, my argument was not about the formal reach of the law itself but how it is being implemented. A disproportionate number of working class youths are being pressed into conscription as whatever formal system to organize this has already broken down. The Irrawaddy and Frontier confirms as much. Middle class youths have other avenues to evade. Through bribes and their families connections. Nothing is new under the sun. 

[jason1975]

Can OP please continue with his trip report? 🤣

I know @vinapu is eager to read!

[Raposa]

16 minutes ago, jason1975 said:

Can OP please continue with his trip report? 🤣

I know @vinapu is eager to read!

There is too much whoring in all these trip reports 🤣

[Foolish]

Why have a report on the boys of BKK became a history lesson 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

Can we move the discussion on the effects of colonialism to another thread 😅

Reports on whoring is always more entertaining 🤭

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, Raposa said:

I have to disagree with your assessment. While it’s true that the Chinese Civil War technically ended in 1949 (lets just go with the conventional view here), its consequences certainly did not. In fact, the presence of the KMT in Burma after their defeat by the Communists was a crucial factor that shaped the military dynamics in Myanmar, directly influencing the events leading up to the 1962 coup. My line of argument is about how the presence of the KMT built the capacity and the mindset of the tatmadaw, that was until the 1950s nothing more than a colonial constabulary force

Yes, the remains of the KMT in Yunnan which were unable to flee with Chiang Kai Shek to Taiwan did cross into Burma's Shan State in 1950 and were supported by the USA through the CIA, the ROC from Taiwan and Thailand. But they were not welcomed by the Burmese military, the Tadmadaw. One reason for its anger was the KMT had become involved in the lucrative opium trade. Another was its presence on the border with China compromised Burma's declared policy of neutrality.

Having refused to depart the country after many requests to do so, in 1953 the Tadmadaw launched  Operation Nagar Naing against the KMT forces. This resulted in a defeat at the hands of the KMT forces. The Burma government then complained to the United Nations about the KMT invasion of its territory. The UN told the KMT to withdraw. They did not. Like Chiang in Taiwan, those KMT forces in Burma intended to build up their forces and then help to invade communist China. Early in the following year in Operation Bayintnaung, though, the Burmese army managed to force much of the KMT out of the country into Thailand. That May these KMT forces were flown from Chiang Rai to Taiwan.

About 6,000 KMT forces remained in Burma, but merely a rump of those who had invaded. Most of these remained on the Shan State border with Thailand  - and sometimes across that border. Some have argued, as @Raposa has, that this group helped build the Burmese army into a true army that enabled the 1962 coup. But far from all agree with this. Some commentators have argued strongly that this is based on propaganda emanating from Taiwan. Having looked at various sources and their authors, I believe in this propaganda theory.

[vinapu]

9 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Thank you to @PeterRS and @Moses to shed some light on the causes for this internal Myanmar strife and never ending civil war.

Do either of you think that in our lifetime (I am already 63) that we will see a form of peace that would allow us to vacation in Myanmar again? 

This is one of my bucket list dreams.

you still can go as Christian PFC attested, he was there in January/ February

ChristianPFC - Adventures in Thailand: Myanmar Jan2025 general observations

[vinapu]

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

 

Balloons Over Bagan

 

when I was there in 2001 it was only one balloon , now it seems there are several

[vinapu]

3 hours ago, Raposa said:

We both agree about the law. However, my argument was not about the formal reach of the law itself but how it is being implemented. A disproportionate number of working class youths are being pressed into conscription as whatever formal system to organize this has already broken down. The Irrawaddy and Frontier confirms as much. Middle class youths have other avenues to evade. Through bribes and their families connections. Nothing is new under the sun. 

Indeed, 

I grew up in place with then  universal conscription since discontinued. And yet I remember one veteran colonel saying " I saw  everything in army but yet I 'm to see doctor's son being drafted "

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, Raposa said:

There is too much whoring in all these trip reports 🤣

that's the whole point

[Raposa]

40 minutes ago, vinapu said:

that's the whole point

I am always celibate on my trips 😁

[khaolakguy]

What learned people we are lucky enough to have on this forum. Thank you for your Burmese history lessons. Much appreciated.

Just goes to show that there is never only one version of history, but it is always good to find a common narrative, where possible. No one interpretation of historical events is ever 100% correct.

Back to the whoring........

Looking forward to the next instalment from CallMeLee.......

[CallMeLee]

The historical and geopolitical analysis and conversation from this thread is so impressive! Unfortunately, not much I can contribute around the topic.

Writing this report while having a foot spa / pedi at a massage shop in Surawong. Gave me some time to do a bit of writing in between whoring!

----------

After James left, I realized how completely drained I was. The moment the door closed behind him, I collapsed onto the bed and sank into a deep, dreamless sleep. It was honestly the reset I didn’t know I needed. As fun as our time was, I really need to start being mindful of my energy. I'm not as young as I used to be—and my body’s definitely not shy about reminding me.

Woke up late and slow. Breakfast was just a bunch of random stuff from 7-11—some snacks and whatever looked vaguely breakfast-y—chased down with black coffee. Nothing fancy, but it did the job. Checked work emails just to make sure there were no small fires to put out. Thankfully, it was a quiet inbox. Spent the morning lounging and taking my time. No rush, no noise. Just how I like it sometimes.

Sometime in the afternoon, I messaged Ssense and booked Mai for a two-hour session via their Line account. They did what they always do—tried to push the expensive package. I passed. Paying an extra 300 baht just to get rubbed down with fancy oil isn’t worth it to me. Feels like paying more for the same outcome.

Got to the place and everything felt familiar. I started to relax and mentally settled into what I expected to be the usual decent experience. The massage itself was fine—same level as before—but it ended way too early. Mai stepped out after about 90 minutes, saying he’d go shower. I figured, sure, he wants to rinse off after the B2B part. But when he came back, he told me to shower, and I noticed he was already tidying up the room, setting it for the next customer. There were still at least 15 minutes left. Just like that, it was done.

Tipped the bare minimum and messaged Mr. S about it. He apologized, but I don’t really expect anything to come of it. First time this has happened, and fingers crossed it’s also the last.

Headed out after that to Suan Phlu market. Picked up some fruit and grabbed a couple of waterproof bags for Songkran. Afterward, made my way to Icon Siam to kill some time. The Souk Siam food market was lively as ever—this time with a Songkran theme going on. Sat by the waterfront for a while, just enjoying the view and watching the crowd. The mood felt normal again. Seems the recent earthquake has slipped from the forefront of people’s minds.

Chatted with the taxi driver on the way there—he brought up the structure collapse in Chatuchak. He said some of the workers who were “missing” might not be under the rubble at all, but are actually undocumented and hiding to avoid being found. Not sure if it’s true or just gossip, so I didn’t say much.

Spent the early evening chilling in the hotel. Then, once the timing felt right, I headed over to Good Boy. The Mama San greeted me like an old friend—we sat outside on the couch and had a quick catch-up. Tee the papasan showed up not long after. He looked tired and a little worn out. I asked how he was, and he told me he'd just gotten out of the hospital after a three-month stay. Even showed me a photo. Said he’s trying to live healthier now, but working in a bar makes that an uphill battle.

Inside, the show was starting. Same format as always, though the faces had changed—apparently a fresh batch from Laos and Vietnam. One noticeable change: Mai wasn’t in the Big Cock show. That stung. To make it worse, my favorite from last time—Number 7—got scooped up right away. No chance. Double heartbreak.

Still, I scanned the lineup and noticed Number 73—cute, with a shy vibe that stood out. I waved him over. Turns out he’s only been working there for a couple of months. Took him a few minutes to open up, but soon enough he was smiling, getting playful, and clearly trying to seal the deal. I found his awkwardness kind of adorable, so I offed him. Wasn’t sure yet if I wanted him for LT. When I asked, he just said, “Up to you,” with that same sheepish smile.

We stopped by Foodland after and I asked what he wanted to eat. He just said, “You can order for me.” Again—so unsure of himself but in a sweet way. It made me wonder how many more months he’ll stay that way before the bar life fully gets to him.

Back at the hotel, things shifted. He relaxed a lot more and was surprisingly cheeky and passionate once we were alone. The whole thing turned out better than I expected. Afterward, we were curled up in bed and I asked if he wanted to stay the night. Same answer, same shy smile: “Up to you.”

And just like that, another Bangkok night ended—with cuddles, quiet, and the buzz of the city outside.

[ichigo]

3 hours ago, CallMeLee said:

The whole thing turned out better than I expected.

I love these moments where things turn out better than expected!