Why did Sunee plaza die off

[Olddaddy]

What was the decline of Sunee Plaza do you think ?

I remember at one stage the business owners tried their best  with the SP  , (Sunee Plaza Initiative) to re re-ignite the 🔥 🔥 

Offering discounts loyalty cards etc but that was like 2008

Go back 20 years ago and the place was buzzing 🕺🩰a gay hive 

Today it's a ghost town and obviously up for redevelopment eventually ,who knows what it will be ?

Another shopping centre?

Condos ? 

Maybe even a new bar area 

😳What caused this ?😳

Short term leases ? ❓

Deaths of the old timers?💀

Over policing?👮‍♂️

Anger by the Do gooooooooders ,?

Demography 

The owners of the area 😳

It started to "die off " around when The Jomtien complex started with Gay bars back around the 2012 era with The Bondi (now the Venue) hosting Gay cabaret 

But should that have made a difference?

Sunee now had 3 bars 🍺

They were great days 😊 

🎵🎵🎵🎵🎵🕺Those were the days my friend......🎵🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶

...I thought they'd never end ! 💃💃💃da da da da ....da da da da 🎵🎵🎵oh those were the days ...da da da

[macaroni21]

@Olddaddy, hasn't the death of Sunnee been discussed to death?

[Olddaddy]

29 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

@Olddaddy, hasn't the death of Sunnee been discussed to death?

And one must never forget 

Shouldn't there be a memorial plaque 

The people who gave their lives , and many other have been forgotten,

It only occurred to me today a few days before my next trip, the memories of those who have sacrificed their life's bothi Thai and farang to give us entertainment that we enjoyed 

RIP to many of them.

I actually cried tonight thinking of all those people ,tears welled up in my eyes thinking about those times and the people , and can you tell me doctor why I can't get to sleep 

The good memories the bad memories and the channel 7 chopper which chlls me to my feet 

Think of all the old bar owners and be grateful they were around back then to give us the time of our lives 

I know I said a silent thankyou prayer today 🙏the service they gave and the great memories 

 one will never forget Crabby of the Corner bar and if he is reading this today thankyou for the good times .

Thankyou to all the former bar owners of Sunee Plaza 🙏

Lest we forget 💜💜💜

[bkkmfj2648]

47 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

Thankyou to all the former bar owners of Sunee Plaza 🙏

If you go to the M Bar in the Jomtien Complex (aka Supertown) you can give your thanks to Madam M, the owner, as she is still alive and she cultivates a warm and friendly family environment for the guys who work for her.

@Olddaddy she can also answer ALL of your questions (she is super friendly) as to why Sunee Plaza died - which consequently was why she had to move first to Boyztown and then to Supertown.

https://m.facebook.com/61554743396145/

 

[Olddaddy]

Yes I will be back next week 

Dance in the Cocka2 bar  ,I like the bar owner there he seems to ignore me which is good as I can dance for hours and be left alone 💃🕺

[floridarob]

3 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

he seems to ignore me

Rob is a wise man indeed ....

[thaiophilus]

4 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

she can also answer ALL of your questions (she is super friendly) as to why Sunee Plaza died, which consequently was why she had to move first to Boyztown and then to Supertown.  

What (and where?) was the Boyztown incarnation called? I don't recall an M Bar.

Any chance you can share some of her other answers here, or is it too inflammatory for print? 😲

[Olddaddy]

Do you think this training is....how to get out of a headlock 😮😮😮

[Keithambrose]

1 hour ago, Olddaddy said:

Do you think this training is....how to get out of a headlock 😮😮😮

Would be nice to be a volunteer.  Do you think they advertise?

[bkkmfj2648]

8 hours ago, thaiophilus said:

What (and where?) was the Boyztown incarnation called?

She may have told me the name but I do not recall the Boyztown name.

In fact, I am not even sure that the name = "M Bar" was used/existed in Sunee Plaza.

She was reacting to my question to her about her journey from Sunee Plaza to the Jomtien Complex.

8 hours ago, thaiophilus said:

Any chance you can share some of her other answers here, or is it too inflammatory for print?

The only inflammatory parts were related to what has already been stated many times here in our gayguides.com forum:

1. too many bars were working with underage guys which was attracting a bad element to Pattaya,
2. various NGOs were made aware of the above item #1 and they spilled the beans in the media on the world stage and consequently giving Thailand a bad name,
3. local police were told to take care of this,
4. the turf war distinction about who controls Sunee Plaza, Boyztown, and Jomtien Complex - as in which factions of the local Pattaya police versus the military,
5. she reiterated several times that she never employed underage guys in any of the places where she worked.

I would encourage anyone reading this and wanting to know more to pay a visit to her M Bar in Supertown and have a chat.  She reminded me of the famous historian, Bangkok Pat, who always has a wealth of historical information to share.

https://www.youtube.com/@BangkokPat

 

 

[PeterRS]

14 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Shouldn't there be a memorial plaque 

The people who gave their lives , and many other have been forgotten,

It only occurred to me today a few days before my next trip, the memories of those who have sacrificed their life's bothi Thai and farang to give us entertainment that we enjoyed 

RIP to many of them

Oh dear! A memorial plaque? That's surely going way too far. Who sacrificed what? People "gave their lives"? Come on, let's face facts. With few exceptions, they worked in Sunee and virtually all were there for one reason and one reason only - owners and boys - to make money. It was their commerical decision to move and work there. Would a plaque be there to celebrate all those who failed to make money? Nobody conscripted them! Nobody forced them into some sort of slavery!

These people were nothing like the 140,000 Chinese, mostly illiterate peasants, who were sent by their government to work as labourers to repair war machinery and to dig trenches for the Allied forces in Europe in World War 1 and who suffered in ghastly, appalling conditions. In return China gained less than nothing at the Versailles Peace Conference with, for example, the German concessions in Shandong being handed back not to China but to the hated Japanese! The ordinary Chinese man in the street was outraged and saw this as an enormous humiliation. Demonstrations led by students erupted in China. I mention this only because these were to lead directly to the start of the Chinese communist party. Had China been treated in accordance with its war contribution - perhaps a few plaques here and there - there might be no communist government in Beijing today. That from Bruce Ellemen, Professor of Maritime History at the US Naval War College.

I know I've gone off on a tangent - but an important one given the thought that Sunee should erect a plaque!

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/surprisingly-important-role-china-played-world-war-i-180964532/

[reader]

In the end, Sunee Plaza entered the death cycle because increasingly fewer people wanted to rent space there. In other words, the ageless fact of real estate life won out: location, location, location. 

[Olddaddy]

2 hours ago, reader said:

In the end, Sunee Plaza entered the death cycle because increasingly fewer people wanted to rent space there. In other words, the ageless fact of real estate life won out: location, location, location. 

True to some aspects ,but I can't help to think the owners of the estate's had some part in it's demise

[reader]

18 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

True to some aspects ,but I can't help to think the owners of the estate's had some part in it's demise

Could be. We’ll know when developer announces plan to build condo complex on site.

[spoon]

12 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Do you think this training is....how to get out of a headlock 😮😮😮

That gap between the boy and "customer" lol

[a-447]

Maybe we don't need to over -think this.

I was a regular visitor to Sunee for many years - I even stayed at the Don Plaza/Elephant Plaza hotel, situated right in the middle of Sunee, a few times.

My regular haunts were Eros, Holiday 2, Goodboys and the bar directly opposite called All of Me, and Krazy Dragon.

Over the years I noticed fewer and fewer customers - they just stopped coming. So the bars closed. The final straw was when Eros closed. 

Over the years I rarely saw Asian customers. I did see a couple of Japanese guys, one Korean and one or two Chinese, but that's about it.

I always wondered why the bars didn't get together and advertise on Chinese social media. Given their population, there must be millions of gay cocks looking for a home.

[Olddaddy]

3 hours ago, a-447 said:

Maybe we don't need to over -think this.

I was a regular visitor to Sunee for many years - I even stayed at the Don Plaza/Elephant Plaza hotel, situated right in the middle of Sunee, a few times.

My regular haunts were Eros, Holiday 2, Goodboys and the bar directly opposite called All of Me, and Krazy Dragon.

Over the years I noticed fewer and fewer customers - they just stopped coming. So the bars closed. The final straw was when Eros closed. 

Over the years I rarely saw Asian customers. I did see a couple of Japanese guys, one Korean and one or two Chinese, but that's about it.

I always wondered why the bars didn't get together and advertise on Chinese social media. Given their population, there must be millions of gay cocks looking for a home.

Good points , this "generation" had gone to Jomtien complex,only because they have no choice 

I wonder if this generation (guys under  60 ) would of liked Sunee 

[macaroni21]

5 hours ago, a-447 said:

Over the years I rarely saw Asian customers. I did see a couple of Japanese guys, one Korean and one or two Chinese, but that's about it.

I always wondered why the bars didn't get together and advertise on Chinese social media. Given their population, there must be millions of gay cocks looking for a home.

I can think of four reasons:

1. Vacation time and disposable income

Even today, Asians seldom make long-stay trips to Thailand. Three to seven days would be typical. Given such short trips most will largely stick to Bangkok, maybe add Chiang Mai or Phuket and not venture beyond. Less disposable income than westerners limits how long they can vacation abroad. Paid annual leave in Asia is way less than in Europe.

2. Sunnee's heyday was before Asian wave came into Thailand

Sunnee's heyday was 2000-2010. Chinese outbound tourism to Thailand didn't really take off till after 2008. Nor Korea. The markets of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore (the richest of Thailand's Asian neighbours), while active during that period, are much smaller than Western countries. Japan is a big market, but its people seem to be very demanding of Japanese-centric attractions. For example, they're numerous enough to keep Thaniya Road thriving, but do we see Japanese in the Patpong bars, just a couple of blocks away?

3. Asians are rarely into skinny fem twinks

Again, the Japanese are an outlier; they have a domestic market for skinny fem twinks. But I don't see much demand for this type of boy in other Asian markets. Sunnee was well-known for this type, so there wasn't a good fit between what Sunnee offered and what Asian markets wanted.

4. Host bars are useless for non-English-speaking markets

Sunnee had more host bars than gogo bars. Even their gogo bars tended to be hidden behind alfresco host bars, with seats occupied by farangs. I don't think they ever looked appealing to Asian tourists even if they walked by. The problem is language. Did the owners and managers of the Sunnee bars speak Korean, Chinese or Japanese? Did the boys speak any of these languages, even if not fluently or grammatically?

Do a thought experiment. Imagine a street full of gay host bars in Vientiane with managers more or less fluent in Chinese, but unable to speak a single word of English. Imagine that the boys there speak some Chinese - not well, but enough for a light chat. No English spoken. Imagine the music they play in the bars mostly comprise the top hits in the Chinese music market. Do you think we will see westerners in these bars?

This English-centric host bar concept is replicated in Jomtien. Do we see Asian customers there? Do we see Russian customers there? Yet, both come to Thailand in huge numbers.

 

[floridarob]

7 hours ago, a-447 said:

Maybe we don't need to over -think this.

Speaking from personal experience, what kept me away...and I was going 4 times a year back then...was the risk of association of being a pedophile by going there. 

I remember walking where double shot was, I don't remember the name of the bar back then and the bar across from there and seeing kids around 10-13 yrs old hanging around the old guys there....this wasn't innocent hanging around either...I got cold chills and decided that wasn't a place for me and never went back.

That was before the scandals started, cameras went up and everyone was talking about it.....

I have a VERY open mind with what fetishes or kinks other people have....but will never for the life of me understand or accept the attraction to children ☠️

[Olddaddy]

2 hours ago, floridarob said:

I have a VERY open mind with what fetishes or kinks other people have....but will never for the life of me understand or accept the attraction to children 

Very well said 👍

 

[bkkmfj2648]

9 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

This English-centric host bar concept is replicated in Jomtien.

 

9 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

Do we see Russian customers there?

I remember Mike and his partner (? James ?) catering for the Russian market in their former bar = Dorothy's Showbar.

I do not know what was their marketing strategy to get the Russians to come to their bar....

I even attended one of these events where they hired a DJ so that the Russians could all dance together.

it was fun - as it is very rare to have the opportunity to be able to dance in the Jomtien Complex (aka Supertown).

 

[PeterRS]

9 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

Sunnee's heyday was before Asian wave came into Thailand

Sunnee's heyday was 2000-2010. Chinese outbound tourism to Thailand didn't really take off till after 2008. Nor Korea. The markets of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore (the richest of Thailand's Asian neighbours), while active during that period, are much smaller than Western countries. Japan is a big market, but its people seem to be very demanding of Japanese-centric attractions.

I agree with much of @macaroni21's reasoning. I agree too with @reader's comment about location. And I suggest they are related, at least a litle. Westerners and expats knew about Sunee from a variety of sources. Asian tourists, for the most part, had no clue about it. I don't read Chinese, Japanese, Korean and other Asian gay blogsites but in one English one based in Singapore I rarely ever read about Sunee. This was long after the under-age issue when it was effectively dead to all but those who had experienced it or heard about it.

Sunee's location was definitely not somewhere a newbie gay tourist would accidentally stumble upon. Did any of the gay venues in Sunee ever attempt to market their service - even to the usual western expats? They just assumed since customers had been coming, they would continue to come. Word of mouth!

For example, some will remember that there used to be various free gay publications available in many of the gay bars in Bangkok - and probably Pattaya and Chiang Mai. I cannot recall when the last one disappeared, but most were in English or Thai - with one or two being in both languages. Was there ever even one article in Chinese about Sunee Plaza and/or one ad from one of the Sunee venues? If so, i do not recall any. If people do not know you exist, you have to be mighty clever to keep going on any kind of commercial basis. 

[Olddaddy]

44 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

remember Mike and his partner (? James ?) catering

Mike from Le cage bar ???

I thought he would be on his 90's by now?😮

[bkkmfj2648]

2 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Mike from Le cage bar ???

No - as I wrote above it is Mike from Dorothy's Showbar.

Here is a picture from the Gay Supertown Twitter feed with Mike's picture on the left and his partner James on the right.

[a-447]

.

14 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

I can think of four reasons:

1. Vacation time and disposable income

Even today, Asians seldom make long-stay trips to Thailand. Three to seven days would be typical. Given such short trips most will largely stick to Bangkok, maybe add Chiang Mai or Phuket and not venture beyond. Less disposable income than westerners limits how long they can vacation abroad. Paid annual leave in Asia is way less than in Europe.

2. Sunnee's heyday was before Asian wave came into Thailand

Sunnee's heyday was 2000-2010. Chinese outbound tourism to Thailand didn't really take off till after 2008. Nor Korea. The markets of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore (the richest of Thailand's Asian neighbours), while active during that period, are much smaller than Western countries. Japan is a big market, but its people seem to be very demanding of Japanese-centric attractions. For example, they're numerous enough to keep Thaniya Road thriving, but do we see Japanese in the Patpong bars, just a couple of blocks away?

3. Asians are rarely into skinny fem twinks

Again, the Japanese are an outlier; they have a domestic market for skinny fem twinks. But I don't see much demand for this type of boy in other Asian markets. Sunnee was well-known for this type, so there wasn't a good fit between what Sunnee offered and what Asian markets wanted.

4. Host bars are useless for non-English-speaking markets

Sunnee had more host bars than gogo bars. Even their gogo bars tended to be hidden behind alfresco host bars, with seats occupied by farangs. I don't think they ever looked appealing to Asian tourists even if they walked by. The problem is language. Did the owners and managers of the Sunnee bars speak Korean, Chinese or Japanese? Did the boys speak any of these languages, even if not fluently or grammatically?

Do a thought experiment. Imagine a street full of gay host bars in Vientiane with managers more or less fluent in Chinese, but unable to speak a single word of English. Imagine that the boys there speak some Chinese - not well, but enough for a light chat. No English spoken. Imagine the music they play in the bars mostly comprise the top hits in the Chinese music market. Do you think we will see westerners in these bars?

This English-centric host bar concept is replicated in Jomtien. Do we see Asian customers there? Do we see Russian customers there? Yet, both come to Thailand in huge numbers.

 

You make some valid points.

I don't think the Japanese have a particular aversion to twinks. In fact, they are open to anything.

I wasn't talking about host bars or beer bars - the bars I mentioned were sleazy hands-on bars where the language barrier wasn't a real problem. And twinks were few and far between in those bars. (I'm more into masculine types.)

I still think the main cause for the demise of Sunee is the lack of advertising to the Asian gay tourists. If they didn't know it existed, they onviously wouldn't be turning up there.

BTW, a bar like Eros would have certainly appealed to the Japanese, as they are totally into sleaze, whereas I think the Chinese are a bit more shy and reserved.