How much responsibility do you feel for mitigating others' mistakes?

[unicorn]

A couple of weeks ago, I took a flight on American Airlines from Los Angeles to Miami. We were held at the gate for a good half hour past departure time, with the crew telling us that this was because there was a "maintenance issue" on one of the engines. When we arrived in Miami (about 30 minutes late), the crew asked people to somehow "let people with tight connections deplane first." Well, first of all, I can't see how that would work, unless all of those with tight connections were in aisle seats, and those who weren't were in window seats. As usually happens in these circumstances, the plane just deboarded as it usually does, from front to back (probably taking 10-15 minutes). According to the announcement, there were people who scheduled 1-hour connections on flights to South America, who therefore only had 30 minutes to make the connection (if the subsequent plane left on time). The primary culprits were AA, who should maintain their equipment properly so that this didn't delay departure. It is they who ultimately have to decide if they're going to hold the 2nd flights some 15-20 minutes, or if it's more cost-effective for them to reschedule all of the missed connections, paying the inconvenienced passengers with hotel and meal vouchers. 

Secondly, I had to wonder what kind of an idiot allows only 1 hour for international connections? 30-minute delays are not that uncommon, and some delays are even longer. I rarely will allow less than 2.5 hours for an international connection, or 1.5 hours for a domestic connection. Admittedly, AA is hardly overly proactive with warning people not to do this, as they do suggest tight connections at times, with only a small warning on the selection:

Although the warning is there, I would make the warning more prominent, with a dialog box which one would have to click "Acknowledged" before purchasing the ticket. Even so, it seems like just common sense not to schedule tight connections when there's only one flight a day on a long-haul flight. The only time in the millions of miles I've flown in my life that I missed a connection was when I had allowed 2 hours and 45 minutes for the connection, but my plane from SFO to DFW was 3 hours late (this was some 7 years ago). I might have even been able to catch my ongoing flight, as there was a flight schedule to leave from SFO to DFW 2 hours after mine was scheduled, but that one was over 30 minutes late, too! But I'd never imagine allowing only an hour for an international connection. As the saying goes...

 

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

I had to wonder what kind of an idiot allows only 1 hour for international connections? 30-minute delays are not that uncommon, and some delays are even longer. I rarely will allow less than 2.5 hours for an international connection, or 1.5 hours for a domestic connection.

Minimum connecting times are surely dependent on the airline, the airport and whether you are on the same or different carriers. Having been based in Hong Kong for decades, I was used to CX having short interline connections of around 40 minutes. In all my years of flying, I don't ever recall one missed connection.

But . . . this year having failed to use miles to get me to Europe on my favoured Qatar, I had to get a ticket on CX via HKG. Not really a problem as it allows me a free stopover in HKG on my return. The issue which arose is that for my flight on Saturday, even 5 months ago the only seats available were on the last flight out of BKK at 19:15 connecting to the last flight from HKG to London at 00:15. In theory that alllows for 65 minutes connecting time, although at this time of year with the winter monsoon arrivals into HKG should be straight in towards the north thereby allowing an extra 5-10 minutes or so.

But . . . then I heard that on January 17, the last flight ex-BKK departed 4 hours late! Had that been my flight, I would have missed my connetion, had to spend at least 5 hours at the airport and be connected on to the first London flight in the morning. That in turn would have cancelled my cheap onward flight from London as I would have been a no show. A new ticket would cost around £300. So using FlightRadar I checked that last flight ex-BKK and its departure times. I was shocked to discover that throughout January it was on average 1 hr and 8 mins late in departing. How many had missed their connections during that month I have zero idea.

So . . . I phoned CX to get me on an earlier departure ex BKK. Sorry, sir, the only mileage ticket available is on a flight departing at 06:30 am!! And that would have meant around 14 hours stuck at HKG. Finally I got on to a manager, a pleasant young man who understood my situation, but told me that there were no mileage tickets on earlier flights. I then played what I hoped would be my ace card. What airline, I asked, schedules a flight that over a 31 day month has departed on average 68 minutes late? Every single day! By this time it was perfectly clear to me that the 777 operating that flight must always have arrived late into HKG prior to being prepared for departure for BKK. And it had probably come in from somewhere in Europe where flight times are longer due to being unable to use Russian air space. Since I rarely accept 'no' for an answer, I eventually beat this poor guy down. He finally agreed to put me on a flight departing BKK two hours earlier at no extra cost and I had the new ticket within minutes.

Now of course my concern is the connection in London for which I have allowed almost 3 hours. But worrying about that will achieve nothing, so I will just wait and see what happens.

In general, though, I totally agree with @unicorn. It's far better to plan for 3 or so hours between flights than accept a tight connection.

[reader]

I frequently fly through Narita with a 2:15 layover. On last flight, however, we were late departing, leaving only a little over an hour to make Bkk flight. As I walked up bridge towards terminal, there was a sign saying “international connections” with arrow pointing to open door that led to stairway. I took it and ended airside in Terminal 2 departure concourse. This eliminated the usual bag and body scan. I don’t know if this was a one off tactic due to late arrival or indication that redundant bag scan has been eliminated.

[PeterRS]

Narita has been a hub for American, Japanese and some other airlines for many decades. I can remember when it was quite usual to see around 16 Northwest 747-400s at the airport. 8 would have flown in from US gateways and 8 from Asian destinations. Lots of passengers connected from one route to another. Last time I connected from the US was on JAL, but it was at Haneda.

[unicorn]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Narita has been a hub for American, Japanese and some other airlines for many decades. I can remember when it was quite usual to see around 16 Northwest 747-400s at the airport. 8 would have flown in from US gateways and 8 from Asian destinations. Lots of passengers connected from one route to another. Last time I connected from the US was on JAL, but it was at Haneda.

I think that both JAL and AA use Haneda these days (we've flown both airlines there). My understanding is that for the last several years, maybe at least a decade, Narita is used mostly by low-cost carriers. Narita isn't in a particularly good location. Its location is especially bad if you're taking a cruise ship which docks in Yokohama. 

[unicorn]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Minimum connecting times are surely dependent on the airline, the airport and whether you are on the same or different carriers. Having been based in Hong Kong for decades, I was used to CX having short interline connections of around 40 minutes...

Wow--that's pretty ballsy. There are only two airlines in the whole planet whose on-time performance exceeds 85%: Aeromexico and Saudia:

https://www.cirium.com/thoughtcloud/most-on-time-airlines-airports-2024-revealed-cirium/

In the Asia-Pacific market, only two airlines have over 80% on-time arrivals, and Cathay Pacific is not in the top 5:

Only the top 5 North American airlines top over 3/4 on-time arrivals, and only the top 2 top over 4/5 on-time arrivals. Canadian carriers and low-cost US carriers have worse records:

Given the high cost of missed connections (you have to include the cost of the hotel room you booked on arrival), I'm not willing to play Russian roulette. 

 

[Keithambrose]

5 hours ago, unicorn said:

Wow--that's pretty ballsy. There are only two airlines in the whole planet whose on-time performance exceeds 85%: Aeromexico and Saudia:

https://www.cirium.com/thoughtcloud/most-on-time-airlines-airports-2024-revealed-cirium/

In the Asia-Pacific market, only two airlines have over 80% on-time arrivals, and Cathay Pacific is not in the top 5:

Only the top 5 North American airlines top over 3/4 on-time arrivals, and only the top 2 top over 4/5 on-time arrivals. Canadian carriers and low-cost US carriers have worse records:

Given the high cost of missed connections (you have to include the cost of the hotel room you booked on arrival), I'm not willing to play Russian roulette. 

 

I always try to leave 3 hours for connection time, to be on safe side. If first flight is on time, no issues, relax in lounge or whatever. If flight late you stand a good chance of being OK. I too am amazed by pax, no doubt seduced by airline giving a short connection time, who have a 40 minute connection. Seems to me crazy, unless you would like a heart attack! However I was caught out by an MAS flight from Perth, that was 3 hours late into KL, and I missed the flight to London, in the morning.  However, I was met at the door of the arriving flight, rebooked on the night flight, free hotel room, in airport, all meals, use of pool etc. So good service .

[floridarob]

5 hours ago, unicorn said:

There are only two airlines in the whole planet whose on-time performance exceeds 85%: Aeromexico

Which is mind blowing because Mexicans aren't on time for anything.... Aeromexico will leave early sometimes, even if everyone isn't onboard, lol

[PeterRS]

8 hours ago, unicorn said:

My understanding is that for the last several years, maybe at least a decade, Narita is used mostly by low-cost carriers. Narita isn't in a particularly good location.

The location has always been lousy, but the train into Tokyo station takes little more than 50 minutes. Many trains continue on to Shinkjuku Station. It's interesting how we all gain perceptions and how often they can be incorrect. I know I'm as bad as anyone. But I'm sorry to say you are totally wrong in suggesting Narita has become mostly a low cost carrier airport. I have used it well over 100 times and most major airlines still operate from there. Want a list? How about the scheduled services by Air France, American, British Airways, Cathay Pacific, all the major Chinese airlines (more than a dozen), Delta, Emirates, Etihad, EVA, Finnair, KLM, Korean, Lufthansa, Malaysian, Qantas, Qatar, Singapore Airlines, Swiss, THAI, Turkish, United and others including JAL and ANA. Many like Cathay Pacific use both. It is still by far the more major of the two airports for scheduled international services in the Tokyo region. Haneda just isn't big enough to handle nearly as much international traffic since it also has to handle 90% of Japan's domestic flights - presently over 500 daily from Haneda - which account for around 40 million domestic passengers annually.

https://tokyo-haneda.com/en/flight/flightInfo_dms.html

 

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, unicorn said:

In the Asia-Pacific market, only two airlines have over 80% on-time arrivals, and Cathay Pacific is not in the top 5

Agreed. In the cirium data it came 9th. The only point to add here is that Cathay Pacific suffered most in Asia from covid19. With Hong Kong having virtually the most stringent lock down in the region, most of its planes were parked in deserts and many of it staff laid off. It was barely able to cope with a huge surge in traffic at the end of 2024. It is only now back to full pre-covid operation levels and based on pre-covid performance I'd expect it to move up the on-time performance chart this year, the more so as HK airport now has its new 3rd runway in operation. Just my guess!

1. Japan Airlines
2. All Nippon Airways
3. Singapore Airlines
4. Air New Zealand
5. Thai AirAsia
6. Vietnam Airlines
7. Philippine Airlines
8. Garuda Indonesia
9. Cathay Pacific
10. Qantas Airways

[daydreamer]

8 hours ago, unicorn said:

I think that both JAL and AA use Haneda these days (we've flown both airlines there). My understanding is that for the last several years, maybe at least a decade, Narita is used mostly by low-cost carriers.

Both AA and JAL use Narita, along with Haneda. 

I flew into Narita last month on AA, and departed for BKK on JAL from Narita.

[daydreamer]

15 hours ago, reader said:

I frequently fly through Narita with a 2:15 layover. On last flight, however, we were late departing, leaving only a little over an hour to make Bkk flight. As I walked up bridge towards terminal, there was a sign saying “international connections” with arrow pointing to open door that led to stairway. I took it and ended airside in Terminal 2 departure concourse. This eliminated the usual bag and body scan. I don’t know if this was a one off tactic due to late arrival or indication that redundant bag scan has been eliminated.

For flights arriving at Tokyo's Narita Airport from the US,  Japan has reverted back to no security checks for connecting international passengers on flights that originate in the US, the same as it was a few years ago.  

If you land at Narita, and are connecting to another international flight (Bangkok), at the terminal end of the air bridge, it is imperative to look for the temporary moveable sign @reader mentioned.  The sign will direct you into a departure gate, and up a flight of stairs.  These stairs lead you to the sterile (already screened) departures concourse of the terminal, where you simply walk to your connecting gate, or airline lounge.

If you walk straight ahead off the air bridge into the terminal, and miss the small sign posted at one side, you will have to go through security screening (carry-on bag X-rayed, body scan).   This entails lots of unnecessary walking, and wasted time waiting in a security line.

There are also announcements made, but after a very long flight, you could easily miss those, and you could be well into the main terminal before the announcement is repeated.  I suspect more than a few international passengers arriving from the US at Narita do not notice the temporary sign, and in a rush, head in the direction of the large signs marked International Arrivals and Connecting Flights.

This only applies to flights arriving from the US into Japan.  Entering Narita from Bangkok, all passengers are required to go through Japanese security screening.

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

However I was caught out by an MAS flight from Perth, that was 3 hours late into KL, and I missed the flight to London, in the morning.  However, I was met at the door of the arriving flight, rebooked on the night flight, free hotel room, in airport, all meals, use of pool etc. So good service .

Great for those flying at the front of the plane. I'll bet economy passengers got a "sorry", long queue for rebooking, no hotel, no use of pool, perhaps a cheap meal voucher - and little more! Such is life at the back of the plane!

[a-447]

If I'm arriving late at night or early in the morning, I prefer Narita.

Public transport options are limited late at night from Haneda so your plane better be on time. And you don't want to hit morning rush hour in Tokyo.

Transport from Narita into Tokyo - I like to stay in Ueno - is fast and convenient, and there is no need to change trains, unlike Haneda. The Keisei Skyliner stops in Ueno, near the station. The Nex (Narita Express) stops at Shinjuku and Shinagawa.

I remember how Taiwan's China Airlines profited from the opening of Narita Airport in the 70's. Because Japan recognised China, not Taiwan, China Airlines could not use Narita and had to use Haneda. Needless to say, everyone flew with them, at it was much more convenient than heading all the way out to Narita, which had limited transport options then.

[PeterRS]

1 minute ago, daydreamer said:

I suspect more than a few international passengers arriving from the US at Narita do not notice the temporary sign, and in a rush, head in the direction of the large signs marked International Arrivals and Connecting Flights.

Signage at airports can often be baffling, even for regular flyers. I regularly take China Airlines to Taipei from BKK. For whatever reason, it always seems to arrive at Terminal 2 but you have to go to Terminal 1 Immigration. There is usually a signboard in English, but sometimes it is blocked by a staff member or two directing passengers to another flight. I made a mistake once which was a real pain! But I guess that's the way to learn!

Also at Doha's new terminal a year ago I first could not find the lounge access escalator. Then my gate was something like C12. There were large overhead signs directing passengers to all manner of gates including C1-11. Although I am quite used to navigating myself around airports, I simply could not find C12 (or whatever the number was). In the end I had to ask and the first two staff members could not tell me!

[unicorn]

2 hours ago, a-447 said:

...I remember how Taiwan's China Airlines profited from the opening of Narita Airport in the 70's. Because Japan recognised China, not Taiwan, China Airlines could not use Narita and had to use Haneda. Needless to say, everyone flew with them, at it was much more convenient than heading all the way out to Narita, which had limited transport options then.

My first trip to Japan was in 1984 and, indeed, I took China Airlines (from San Francisco) so that I could fly into Haneda (and use the monorail). I've actually never flown into Narita. A little over 2 years ago, my hubbie and I took JAL (code-share with AA) and connected at Haneda for our trip to SE Asia, then in the Fall took a cruise around Japan and to Jeju Island from Yokohama. We stayed 4 days in Shinagawa, so Haneda was definitely more convenient. I didn't mean to disparage Narita, but while booking our flights, I do remember reading a statement to the effect that Narita was mostly used by budget airlines in recent times. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneda_Airport

"...The Japanese government encourages the use of Haneda for premium business routes and the use of Narita for leisure routes and by low-cost carriers...". 

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, unicorn said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haneda_Airport

"...The Japanese government encourages the use of Haneda for premium business routes and the use of Narita for leisure routes and by low-cost carriers...". 

As often happens that Wikipedia quote is a little out of date. Just last month the Japanese government authorized a big increase in the number of take offs and landings at Narita. The problem is basically that Haneda is already beyond its latest design capacity. Certainly the number of international flights at Narita gradually dropped after the decision was taken to drastically expand Haneda. In 2002 Haneda for example had 2,121 international flight movements. By 2019 that number had exploded to 44,429. Added to that has to be the number of domestic movements which in 2019 was 184,755. The domestic movements only increased by little more than 30% during that time.

At Narita, the number of international movements in 2019 was vastly larger at 104,611 but with just 28,015 domestic movements.

With it being so much easier to get to Haneda from central Tokyo, once it expanded and opened up to many international carriers, inevitably it became more popular. Although, as @a-447 pointed out above, anyone thinking of arriving or departing for a stay in Japan during the 3-hour morning and evening domestic peaks could be in for long waits. For connections, there should be virtually no problems.

The big problem for Narita has always been the nearby farmers who have an extremely active lobby that not only delayed the airport's construction decades ago, but also significantly delayed the opening of the second runway. Because of that lobby, there is a curfew on night flights. Presently Narita has a daily cap of 300,000 movements but this fiscal year only 250,000 are expected. With the rapid increase in travel demand, that is expected to reach the daily cap by next year. With Haneda no longer capable of further expansion, hence the increase in the cap at Narita to 340,000. The majority of the increase is bound to be international flights.

https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/15581638

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/narita-airport-farm-takao-shito-farmer-vows-protect-ancestral-land-japan/

https://japanaviationhub.com/traffic-data/tokyo-haneda-airport/

https://japanaviationhub.com/traffic-data/tokyo-narita-airport/

[a-447]

"The big problem for Narita has always been the nearby farmers who have an extremely active lobby that not only delayed the airport's construction decades ago, but also significantly delayed the opening of the second runway"

There were clashes between the authoritative and an unholy alliance between the notoriously conservative farmers and radical left wing organisations. We watched it all on TV every day. 

For years after the airport opened security was very tight entering the airport; cars were stopped and searched and passenger documentation was thoroughly checked. Riot police hovered nearby and their heavily armoured vans were parked along the roads.

One stubborn farmer refused to sell his land so various taxiways were diverted around his farm. It is still there today,

 

[unicorn]

11 hours ago, a-447 said:

...One stubborn farmer refused to sell his land so various taxiways were diverted around his farm. It is still there today,

Wow. This was a public works project, not a private real estate development. Japan doesn't have eminent domain laws?

[a-447]

5 hours ago, unicorn said:

Wow. This was a public works project, not a private real estate development. Japan doesn't have eminent domain laws?

Japan has strong eminent domain laws but I think in this case, the government had already pissed off the farmers, who are an important electoral constituency, so they probably just gave up. 

If I recall, the farmer in question had the support of the whole country. People admired his tenacity.

[PeterRS]

4 hours ago, unicorn said:

Wow. This was a public works project, not a private real estate development. Japan doesn't have eminent domain laws?

Japan is Japan and trying to divine Japanese logic is all but impossible! I have always said that of Thai logic which in many senses is different from western logic, but I think Japan is even more difficult for westerners to comprehend. We forget that for over 260 years Japan was a totally closed society, this at a time when western countries were looking outwards. The west has often had difficulty understanding that other countries and societies have experienced different histories and different cultures which result in habits that we have difficulty explaining.

I thoroughly recommend anyone interested in trying to understand modern Japan to read "Dogs and Demons: The Fall of Modern Japan" by Alex Kerr, published by Penguin Books. Kerr lived for most of his first 40 years or so in Japan and continues to spend much of each year working there. To quote one review - 

"Alex Kerr's Dogs and Demons succeeds like no other account of Japan in conveying the tragedy of a scrupulous and well-intentioned people cursed with a headless system of governance."

Kerr's first book written in Japanese Lost Japan won Japan's highest literary award for non-fiction. He was and remains the only non-Japanese author to win this prestigious award.

[unicorn]

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

...Japan is even more difficult for westerners to comprehend. We forget that for over 260 years Japan was a totally closed society, this at a time when western countries were looking outwards. The west has often had difficulty understanding that other countries and societies have experienced different histories and different cultures which result in habits that we have difficulty explaining...

I understand that Japanese culture, probably more than any other culture on the planet, gets overly mired in tradition. Tradition has its merits, but can be a hinderance to progress, as in this case. In many ways, tradition is the opposite of progress. I doubt the whole country admired that farmer's "tenacity" (or stubbornness, depending on one's point of view), but in reality, there comes a point when one should be able to say "Your bullheadedness doesn't give you the right to dictate an entire country's interest." Darwin taught us that the most successful are the most adaptable.

[a-447]

39 minutes ago, unicorn said:

I doubt the whole country admired that farmer's "tenacity" (or stubbornness, depending on one's point of view), but in reality, there comes a point when one should be able to say "Your bullheadedness doesn't give you the right to dictate an entire country's interest." 

We followed the building of the airport in great detail every night on the news.

Supporters of the farmers often clashed violently with those who wanted the airport.

I think it was a case of the Japanese siding with the little man - the underdog - fighting government bureaucracy. I know I supported his battle to keep his farm at the time and so did just about everyone I knew.

As for understanding Japanese logic, I don't have much trouble in this regard. You really need to know the language. Everything kind of makes sense to me but I've basically given up trying to explain it to my friends.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

in reality, there comes a point when one should be able to say "Your bullheadedness doesn't give you the right to dictate an entire country's interest." Darwin taught us that the most successful are the most adaptable.

And that, in my view and with respect, is the western way of thinking! 😀

[unicorn]

11 hours ago, PeterRS said:

And that, in my view and with respect, is the western way of thinking! 😀

Assuming he was offered fair compensation for his property, if not celebrating pig-headed behavior is the western way of thinking, I'll take the western way! 😉