Red Shirts Threaten to Regroup and Stage More Rallies

[Gaybutton]

The following appears in THE NATION:

_____

 

More Rallies 'As Soon as Decree Ends'

 

By THE NATION

Published on April 16, 2009

 

Movement will Regroup and Hit Back Stronger, Pheu Thai MP Vows

 

The red shirts were likely to regroup after the government lifts the state of emergency, sources from security forces said yesterday.

 

Although life in Bangkok appears to have returned to normal, intelligence officials have had tips that supporters of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra plan more rallies as soon as the state of emergency is discarded.

 

Red-shirt leaders such as Jatuporn Promphan, Jakrapob Penkair had earlier announced they were ready to stage an underground movement.

 

Informants claim the new round of rallies were intended to be more dramatic than those that took place in recent days.

 

The government has been warned to check D-Station carefully and take legal action against taxi drivers' local radio stations as they were a media allegedly instigating an uprising and anarchy.

 

Pheu Thai Party Udon Thani MP Lt Col Surathin Pimanmekin said the red shirt movement would continue although they had been told by the leaders to suspend the protest. "People who are treated unfairly still want to demonstrate their protest in their own way. They do not need leaders. Having leaders does not necessarily ensure victory."

 

He said provincial people would come to Bangkok to issue demands to the government.

 

Democrat Party adviser Banyat Bantadtan believed the red shirt movement would revive after regrouping to try gather more strength.

 

However, he said the longer the rallies went on, the more public opposition the red shirts would face before finally dying down.

 

"Thaksin fears that it would reach that point and that's why he has been calling for a mediator to bring reconciliation,'' he said.

 

Banyat, formerly a Democrat Party leader, gave three reasons that would drive Thaksin to compromise: first he doesn't want to go to jail. The Supreme Court's Political Division for Political Office Holders had sentenced him to two years in prison over a land deal by his ex-wife.

 

Secondly, he did not want to lose his assets (courts are due to rule on $2 billion of family money that has been frozen in Thai banks). And third, he wanted to return to power.

 

Banyat said it would be hard to find people who would act as a mediator for Thaksin, as the former PM wanted the government to throw 13 graft cases, worth Bt200 billion in damages, out of the court.

 

"Thai society has developed to the point that people will not allow a few people to settle this problem because it goes against moral and legal grounds,'' he said.

 

Meanwhile, a former Roi Et MP for the pro-Thaksin People Power Party, Nisit Sinthuprai, claimed the riots this week were the work of a third party and not the red shirts.

 

He also claimed the military crackdown on the protesters on Monday led to deaths and that he would find evidence and relatives of people supposedly killed to present to the press.

 

He said the red shirts had not lost the war; they were just taking a recess. "We will actually steal a small victory by breeding red-shirt seeds in the heart of people. Once we blow the whistle, a bigger number of red shirts will turn up."

 

He said he would be a second-generation leader for the red shirts and would lead a rally to call for the resignation of three privy councillors and the PM.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

The Red Shirts should get together with Norm Coleman R from Minnisota. He is still fighting an election that he lost in November of 2008.

 

To Both Coleman and the Red Shirts!!

 

YOU LOST! GET REAL!!

[Guest fountainhall]

YOU LOST! GET REAL!!

 

Too many words - GET LOST will do!

[Gaybutton]

GET LOST will do!

They may have done just that. According to the latest news reports, three of the Red Shirt ringleaders were brought to criminal court this morning. No Red Shirt protesters showed up.

[Guest Soi10Tom]

The birth, or abortion, of democracy is a very messy business.

 

Here is what the Bangkok Post and the Nation are not telling you. The "Yellow Shirts" represent Bangkok ( a very small minorty)... of the rich, aristocrats, middle class business people, royals..and most importantly the POLICE, because policemen must buy their jobs and once they become police they join the chain of corruption and become middle class to rich, depending on how good they are at gaming the corrupt system.

 

The Army on the other hand is much more volatile. The officers are from the ruling class, but, and there is huge BUT here, the enlisted ranks are "Red Shirts." The Red Shirts are the rural, small town and village poor (a very large Majority of the population), many of their family members are wearing red shirts and are on the streets of Bangkok. Anyone with money buys their way out of enlisted military service, so it is an Army of the poor, being lead by the rich.

 

The reason that you did not see up until the last minute the Army move again the crowds is the military leadership's fear that the Army would turn on the Government and cause real democracy to happen. It is also the reason that you have seen military vehicles left on the streets for the red shirt crowds to take...the soldiers have just walked away. It is, also, the reason that you have seen numerous pictures of soldiers, in full battle dress, on tanks loaded with Red Shirt protesters driving through Bangkok.

 

When there are elections the Red Shirts win every time, so the Yellow Shirts cause a coup, use the courts, or cause enough civil unrest to over turn the election and put their people back in power. Now the Red Shirts are playing the Yellow Shirt's game and trying to cause enough civil unrest to topple the government. This is an old game going back many generations.

 

Also, understand that the press is tightly controlled by the Yellow Shirts, so what you read from any Thai news organization is to be taken with a grain of salt. When news reports or reporters step out of line: it is out of business or off to jail with them...no bail.

 

And it all ended so quickly. The government offered buses to take the Red Shirts home, and the Red Shirts took the government up on the offer. So, who will run Thailand: will real democracy take hold or will the rich minority remain in control the decission is put off for another day, and Songkran was back in full swing!!!!

[Guest GaySacGuy]

." The Red Shirts are the rural, small town and village poor (a very large Majority of the population)

Speaking from the "rural" area, the Red Shirts are not nearly as strong as some seem to think. The people in general seem to be running out of steam to support Thaskin and his group. I don't see many Red Shirts around. Generally the people are tired of all the bullshit, from both sides, and are ready for it to stop.

[Gaybutton]

I agree with GaySacGuy. What Soi10Tom is saying used to be the case, but from my conversations with people from the rural north and Issan, The Red Shirts have lost a hell of a lot of support and so has Thaksin. People keep telling me that they never would have dreamed that the kind of violence that took place would ever happen. While they were pleased with what Thaksin did while he was in office, now they see him as a man who will stop at nothing to get what he wants. They see the violent incidents as a major stain on Thailand and want nothing to do with people who do such things.

 

In short, the people I speak to feel betrayed.

[Guest Hedda]

People keep telling me that they never would have dreamed that the kind of violence that took place would ever happen.

 

That's because you're probably talking to people who are too young to remember the slaughters perpetrated by the army or government-sponsored militias in Bangkok in 1976 and 1992. They don't teach that "bad" history in Thai schools and, as a result, no one learns from prior experience or mistakes.

 

And what about Khru Se, where less than five years ago, dozens of young Thais men were summarily shot and executed en masse by the Thai army in a mosque surrounded by hundreds of troops ? They didn't shoot the Rohingas last year; they towed them into the sea to starve or drown.

 

If you show a young Thai photos of Khru Se or the mutilated bodies of students hung from trees in Sanam Luang or laying dead in rows on the lawns of Thammasat University in 1976, they stare with blank looks as if they don't believe that Thais could behave that way.

 

The official dead count was listed by the Thai government at Thammasat was 46, but many think it was in the hundreds, with their bodies thrown into the Chao Praya to rot. As for Thais who are old enough to remember the Thammasat massacre, just last year, former PM Samak, when questioned about his alleged role in the massacre by Al Jazeera on 9 February 2008, stated, "Only one died, and that one by accident."

 

Sound familiar ?

[Gaybutton]

That's because you're probably talking to people who are too young to remember

As a matter of fact, the people I talk to are in my age bracket. Most of the younger ones I've spoken to either don't want to talk about it at all or come across as being indifferent. I think you've made my point for me. The older generation remembers very well what happened before and that's precisely why they feel betrayed now. They thought there would be no more violence, but now they feel that Thaksin will readily resort to it if he gets an opportunity and if nothing else works.

[Guest Hedda]

They thought there would be no more violence, but now they feel that Thaksin will readily resort to it if he gets an opportunity and if nothing else works.

 

At the risk of belaboring a point most people seem to be overlooking, who said ( other than the government and its mouthpieces in the yellow press ) that Thaksin and the red shirts were responsible for the recent violence in Bangkok ? As far as I can tell, most of the 100+ people in hospitals were either red shirts or civilians who got shot. By whom ? And who fired the shots that killed two people ? Was it reds ? Was it soldiers ? Was it Newin Chibchob's vigilantes running wild in Bangkok, just like they did in Pattaya ?

 

Stop swallowing the propaganda that passes for news in the Nation or Bangkok Post, and think for yourself. Since when is blocking traffic or burning tires in the street " violence on a scale never experienced in Thailand." As far as I can tell, not a single person was hurt or injured in any of those incidents. Lots of smoke when you burn a bus, but are you comparing that to the slaughter effected by the army in past massacres ?

 

In Pattaya, it wasn't until Newin Chidchob's blue shirts arrived with weapons that things got out of hand at Royal Cliff. Even then, as far as I know, the only casualty at Royal Cliff was a set of glass door that broke in the rush of the crowd.

 

And in Bangkok, there was no violence at any of the red protests with over 100,000 people in the streets, until Abhisit, humiliated by the total failure of his government to implement routine crowd controls at Pattaya, ordered the army into Bangkok's streets with guns and bullets. That's when people started to get shot or killed...and by whom ?

 

 

[Gaybutton]

Stop swallowing the propaganda that passes for news in the Nation or Bangkok Post, and think for yourself.

I'll do that under the condition that you do not make the assumption that I'm not thinking for myself. The fact that I believe the Red Shirts were responsible and that I believe what the Thai people tell me doesn't mean that I'm not thinking for myself, does it? Perhaps it means I disagree with your opinion, but I don't see how that translates into someone else doing my thinking for me (although I wouldn't mind at all if someone volunteers to accept that responsibility for me). How does the fact that the Thai people with whom I speak tell me they believe Thaksin will stop at nothing to get what he wants become allowing THE NATION and BANGKOK POST to do my thinking for me?

[Guest GaySacGuy]

At the risk of belaboring a point most people seem to be overlooking, who said ( other than the government and its mouthpieces in the yellow press ) that Thaksin and the red shirts were responsible for the recent violence in Bangkok ?

 

Did you bother to listen to Thaskin and what he had to say to his "followers" on his video address???

 

Is inciting a riot OK???

 

And what makes you think your evaluation of the situation is correct???

 

There has been some independent news coverage by those such as CNN and the US networks that was pretty revealing as to what took place in Bangkok.

[Guest Hedda]

And what makes you think your evaluation of the situation is correct???

Well, to begin with, living here for many years makes one aware of the degree to which the Thai authorities and their client journalists habitually manage the news to suit their agenda. And since virtually all of the news on Thai TV is state-controlled, it's difficult to imagine that those Thais GB has been talking to in Pattaya don't have a very jaundiced view of what happened in Bangkok. Few, if any of those folks, watch what's being said on CNN or the US networks and, if you watch Thai TV regularly, you'll know what a biased pro-government view it always presents.

 

The fact that 99% of the people were injured after the army took to the street with live ammunition, with very few military injuries, also suggests that the military were doing most of the shooting. If you are shocked by that suggestion, you may want to go back and look at the film clips from all of the massacres this same army has catered over the past 30 years, as recently as Khru se, Tak Bai and with the Rohingha boat people.

 

I am not suggesting that there weren't some among the thousands of red shirt protesters didn't lose their cool and react to the appearance of government-sponsored blue hooligans in Pattaya or soldiers with loaded automatic weapons in Bangkok. What's clear is that there wasn't a single injury reported in weeks of red shirt protests until the government started shooting.

 

The natural human reaction to being shot at is to react, sometimes violently. That's why it's essential that the military maintain strict discipline among troops well-trained for non-lethal crowd control. What I saw on TV were young troopers rushed in from outlying provinces, running down streets in disorganized fashion in anything but a tightly controlled formation.

 

You might want to take a look at the recently released letter of the Human Rights Watch based in New York. It calls for a compete independent investigation of who bears responsibility for Black Songkran and everything that preceded it. It contains a very different view than you'll see in almost all of the Thai media, including the observation that:

 

"News footage and accounts by witnesses show that while most of the guns were fired into the air, some soldiers fired their assault rifles directly at the protesters." Try and find that line in the Nation or Bangkok Post.

 

http://www.prachatai.net/english/node/1140

[Gaybutton]

if you watch Thai TV regularly, you'll know what a biased pro-government view it always presents.

If the Thai news media is biased against Thaksin, it would be hard to blame them. While Thaksin preached 'freedom of the press,' it was more like 'freedom of suppress.' You don't need me to remind you of the methods Thaksin used to try to control the press.

 

But since when is the news media unbiased? I give you Fox News, for starters. Actually, the most unbiased news seems to come from, of all places, AL Jazeera.

 

I suppose we can debate about who shot who and who started what, but that's all we can do . . . debate about it. None of us knows for sure. But I'm not going to just assume we're being lied to simply on the basis of the fact that the source of the news is The Nation or the Bangkok Post.

[Guest Soi10Tom]

I think that Hedda has hit the nail directly on the head. Unfortunately I think that many expats and Thailand lovers have "gone native" in the worst sense of the word. It seems that they have not only slipped into listening to but also wanting to believe the Thai news machine, which is 100% controled by the Yellow Shirts, and taking as informed opinion what Thais who have never heard anything but controlled new have to say.

 

I remember once hearing a 58 year old very educated man from California say in a swooning...almost tearful voice, "I love the &%ng." What can you say to someone who has crossed over???.

 

I am certainly no Taksin lover, but keep in mind that he is, except for intervention from above, the legally elected PM. And as to all of this business about corruption, the opposition is simply jealous because Taksin is a better thief than they can ever hope to be. Whoever is in power in Thailand steals, bribes, collects tea money and engages is realestate games....corruption is the name of the game, and the winner takes all. Taksin was the best player ever......we will see what the future holds.

[Gaybutton]

And as to all of this business about corruption, the opposition is simply jealous because Taksin is a better thief than they can ever hope to be.

That's quite a statement. Do you have any evidence of that beyond your personal opinion? The same question goes for the Thai "news machine." You said it's controlled by the Yellow Shirts. Do you have proof of that?

 

If you have proof about what you say, that's one thing. If you don't, then maybe you ought to take another look at who is submitting his thinking to someone else's propaganda.

[Guest Hedda]

I suppose we can debate about who shot who and who started what, but that's all we can do . . . debate about it. None of us knows for sure.

 

Tell that to the government, Thai TV and newspapers which have been feeding the people with a steady diet of "blame the red shirts" since the first shots were fired. Your comparison to Fox News being an equally biased news source is also quite misplaced. Fox is one of many voices on American TV to which people can turn for news. That's not the case in Thailand, where the government runs every channel, especially now that it has pulled the plug on the only contrary voice, DTV. Even small community radio stations are now being shut down to stifle all criticism of the government.

 

Just imagine what politics would be like in the USA if the only news channel on the air was Fox TV. Well, that's exactly the situation right now in Thailand, where the content of all free TV that the urban and rural poor watch is tightly controlled by the government or Army, with relatively few Thais able to access foreign sources like CNN or BBC.

 

It's brainwashing 24-7, deifying some and demonizing others, practiced for decades on folks who are lucky to have a sixth grade education. That sort of mind control and the servile paternalism it cultivates in the masses, has got to change if real democracy has any chance to take root in Thailand. Right now, the red shirts are the only game in town supporting those stripes, with or without Thaksin. But it's a tiger he is attempting to ride, not vice versa, as the government would like you to believe.

[Guest Soi10Tom]

That's quite a statement. Do you have any evidence of that beyond your personal opinion? The same question goes for the Thai "news machine." You said it's controlled by the Yellow Shirts. Do you have proof of that?

 

If you have proof about what you say, that's one thing. If you don't, then maybe you ought to take another look at who is submitting his thinking to someone else's propaganda.

 

As proof that the Yellow Shirts control the Thai news machine......The operative word here is YELLOW. As you well know, if anything is spoken or written in the news media that can in anyway be twisted in the most bizarre of ways as a critics or Mr. Big it is directly off to jail....no bail. I would offer to you as empirical proof of YELLOW control of the press the people who are in jail for expressing opinions, writting or reporting "bad news." If you don't call the fear of being jailed for opening your mouth or putting pen to paper control of the media I would be very interested in knowing what your definition of control of the media is.

 

If you would care to further investigate YELLOW control of the media, I would suggest a Google of Reporters Without Boarders Thailand.

 

You ask for proof of corruption of current Thai government; here you go!!!. If you do a little Goggle search you will promptly find more hits on Thailand corruption since the coup than you will have time to read. Here is one of many.

 

http://www.bt.com.bn/en/world_news/2008/03...ng_most_corrupt

 

Philippines, Thailand among most corrupt'

SINGAPORE

 

 

 

Tuesday, March 11, 2008

 

 

THE Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia and China are among the most corrupt Asian economies, according to results of a regional poll of expatriate businessmen released yesterday.

 

Singapore and Hong Kong retained their rankings as the cleanest economies, the Political and Economic Risk Consultancy (Perc) said.

 

The annual survey covers only 13 economies in Asia and excludes other countries notorious for corruption, such as Myanmar and Bangladesh.

 

Some 1,400 expatriates were polled in January and February this year, Perc said.

 

Corruption remains a problem in the region despite huge economic progress made over the years, with governments generally lacking the political will to tackle the problem, the Hong Kong-based Perc said.

 

"The Philippines is a sad case when it comes to corruption," the consultancy said in a summary report. The Philippine situation is "probably no worse than in places like Indonesia and Thailand", but corruption has become politicised and is openly discussed in the media, unlike in authoritarian countries like China and Vietnam, it said.

 

The Philippines scored nine out of a possible 10 points under a grading system used by Perc under which zero is the best score and 10 the worst.

 

As in the 2007 survey, Thailand remained the second most corrupt economy after the Philippines with a score of eight after the military, which seized power in a coup in 2006, was seen to have failed to tackle the problem.

 

"The kingdom's economy has been marking time for two years while it sorts out political problems in which allegations of corruption figure prominently," said Perc.

 

Indonesia, which ranked behind Thailand with a score of 7.98, has made improvements under President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, but the perception of the civil service as one prone to graft remains strong, said Perc.

 

"International ratings agencies might have improved Indonesia's foreign and domestic currency debt ratings recently, citing the government's efforts to tackle corruption ... however, the problem is still very serious," said Perc.

 

Corruption is also perceived to have worsened in Malaysia, which scored 6.37 in the survey, worse than last year's grade of 6.25, but the country retained its number six ranking in the poll.

 

AFP

[KhorTose]

Perhaps it means I disagree with your opinion, but I don't see how that translates into someone else doing my thinking for me (although I wouldn't mind at all if someone volunteers to accept that responsibility for me).

 

Ok GB, from now on your may address me as Master and I will do the thinking for both of us. The first thing I need for you to do is send me the deed to your house and turn your bank accounts over to me. If I have to take on the job of thinking for you, I feel I must also take on the task of running all of your personal affairs and managing your household expenses. Don't worry as I intend to budget for all of your needs,. Of course, that will mean a considerable smaller amount of food, for you to eat, as well as, a mandatory program of exercise, and abstinence---both from alcohol and sex. Give me a year and I will have you looking as fit as you did at eighteen and just about as horny.

 

Seriously, my input is that what you are saying about the indifference of youth in the countryside is true, but the red shirts are far from finished and I think the youth will eventually become involved. So on this one we disagree, but time will prove either you or me right.

 

Now, you have my permission to respectfully answer me, but don't forget the sirs and an occasional yes master would be nice.

[Gaybutton]

The operative word here is YELLOW.

Now that's YELLOW journalism. That proves the Thai newspapers are controlled by the Yellow Shirts? Ok . . .

[Gaybutton]

The first thing I need for you to do is . . . turn your bank accounts over to me.

If I did that you would probably make a donation.

[Gaybutton]

Fox is one of many voices on American TV to which people can turn for news. That's not the case in Thailand, where the government runs every channel

You may be right about television news. I really don't know. However that doesn't mean the Thais don't have other news sources. You know as well as I do that there are several Thai language newspapers and, of course, the Internet. There are also radio talk shows and many Thais do call in to those.

 

Of course, whether the majority of Thais consult those sources is another question.

 

I do concede, however, that the Thai government never seems to have a problem about shutting down anti-government papers, television, radio stations, and web sites, all under the guise of "emergency." I fail to see how expressing opinions and reporting news is a danger to the country.

 

I also concede that The Nation and the Bangkok Post are biased against the Thaksin forces. Part of the problem is that the media on both sides seems to be biased.

[Guest Soi10Tom]

 

 

QUOTE(Soi10Tom @ Apr 17 2009, 08:03 AM)

The operative word here is YELLOW.

 

"Now that's YELLOW journalism. That proves the Thai newspapers are controlled by the Yellow Shirts? Ok . . . "

 

 

You ask for proof. You are provided with proof. You are even given the Google searches that provide the proof. Not only proof of the Yellow's control of the media, but, also, of the continued level of corruption in the Thai government, and you blow it all off with this simple minded response. "Now that's YELLOW journalism. That proves the Thai newspapers are controlled by the Yellow Shirts? Ok . . ."

 

I am disappointed in your obvious to all lack of intelectual curiousity, and I greatly fear that you have "gone native"....in a bad way.

 

Let's try this again. Google search... Reporters Without Boarders Thailand

Google search... Most corrupt countries Thailand

 

http://www.bt.com.bn/en/world_news/2008/03...ng_most_corrupt

[Gaybutton]

I am disappointed in your obvious to all lack of intelectual curiousity

First, your link doesn't work. All I see is "The requested resource could not be found."

 

Second, as much as your disappointment brings tears to my eyes, I don't feel that I have to agree with you or your interpretation to have intellectual curiosity. Sorry, but I have yet to see anything that constitutes proof. However, I'll reserve further judgment until your link works and I can read what you believe is proof.

 

By the way, save your insulting remarks. You can call me 'simple minded' or whatever you like, but that doesn't do a thing to promote your case. From my point of view, people who resort to name calling are the simple minded ones. That's also a violation of board policy. If you want to debate the issue, then stick to the issue. If you want to start getting personal, you're going to have a problem. We don't allow things to get personal around here, whether directed at me or anyone else.

[Guest Oogleman]

I fear we are going to see more of the Sondhi style attacks.

 

Why?

 

Because the Government are systematically closing down all red shirts websites/offices/radio stations etc.

 

Without a place to vent their spleen and democratically protest verbally they may resort to other tactics.

 

This all reminds me of events in N.Ireland and other countries that ended up in mayhem. They need to have all party talks as soon as possible to avoid this. Im sure deals can be done.