macaroni21

I am hardly an expert on Pattaya as I don't visit often enough. However, I've been going roughly once a year for the past 20 years at least, so I think I can say something about how the tourism scene has changed. Perhaps other members with more frequent visits, or who tend to stay for a month or more at a time can chip in. For sure, the urban area has grown. There was a time when Jomtien was little more than agricultral land. For sure, the roads are much more congested than in the decade 2000 - 2010 so that means more people. There are more tall condos, but not so many tall hotels. Shopping malls like Terminal 21 didn't appear until after 2010, I think. I wouldn't be so quick, therefore, to dismiss the assertion in the cited news article that there has been a relative decline of the sex scene as an attraction. That said, it is foolhardy to try to put a quantitative figure to it, like saying "2-3 percent of overseas visitors". As others have said, depending on the hour of day, visitors do various things. Looking at the crowds on Walking Street, I'd venture to say just about all visitors to Pattaya walk that street at some point, children included! What I want to unpack is how the article's assertion may be true, but still not a healthy trend. The news article spoke about overseas visitors. Actually, I think the biggest growth in visitors to Pattaya have been in domestic visitors. Many own apartments as second homes. Many drive from Bangkok to spend a weekend in Pattaya (thus the horrible traffic). Growth in overseas visitors, by my observation, has long been of the packaged-tour kind. There seems to be three big groups: Chinese, Indians and Russians. CHINESE 10 - 15 years ago, there was much discussion about huge tour buses carrying enormous numbers of Chinese tour groups. I have seen them myself, but in the last five years or so, I reckon they are less noticeable. This suggests that the Chinese packaged-tour numbers peaked sometime back and have not recovered. However, this is not to say that the Chinese are not coming to Thailand. They are, as I have seen again and again in my far more frequent visits to Bangkok. In the capital city, they are numerous. Increasingly, they are independent travellers, an evolution I expected from years ago given that China's GDP per capita is now US$12,000 (compared to Thailand's $7,000). When Chinese did not have much of a choice regarding their itinerary (because they were coming on packaged tours), they came to Pattaya. Their programme was probably packed with Tiffany Show, a boat tour, Nong Nooch and such standard fare. In a packaged tour, it would have been very hard to be a buyer of sex. So, to the extent that packaged-tour volumes increased dramatically, then the sex trade must have declined as a relative attraction. What I'm not so sure about is whether independent Chinese tourists are making their way to Pattaya. Or are they most sticking to Bangkok and Chiangmai? I somethow think they are giving Pattaya a miss (but others watching the Pattaya scene more closely may advise here). INDIANS My observation of the more recent explosion of Indian tourist traffic is that it is very gendered. Males outnumber females maybe 10 to 1. Yes, there are some packaged tour groups, but I think most come on corporate incentive tours (thus predominantly male). This explains the relatively sudden appearance of many Indian music bars on Walking Street, and ethnic Indian barkers. VIsitors from India (predominantly male) will be interested in the sex trade, but for practical reasons such as being in the company of friends and colleagues, they might go no further than to gawk at the grils and tease each other. Mostof them probably cannot afford to actually hire a girl - too costly for Indian dispoable income - and anyway most cannot afford to be seen to be hiring a girl and bringing her back to the same hotel where 50 of your friends and workmates are staying. Someone might tell your wife! So, if I am right, that however interested the (often male) Indian visitor may be in girls, he can't act on his impulses. This may be another excuse for those promoting Pattaya as a family friendly destination to brag about how uninterested in sex current visitors to the city are. In case you're wondering about GDP per capita, India = $ 2,500. That is to say, Thais are more than twice as rich as Indians. I read somewhere that academics of tourism generally see a GDP per capita of $10,000 as a threshold beyond which independent travel takes off. And as we know, independent travellers spend much more than packaged tourists. China has crossed the threshold. Thailand is getting close, but India is still far behind. This explains why company-paid tours (i.e. not even self-paid packaged tours, let alone independent travel) make up the majority of visits from Indians. RUSSIANS Certainly Russians come in droves, but I don't think they come in packaged tours (Moses may know better), though there is a fine line between chartered flights (followed by free-and-easy days) and all-inclusive packaged tours. However, they do come in family groups, which therefore means that it is hard for any family member to be bar-fining girls from Walking Street, Soi Buakhao or wherever the bars are. THE BIG PICTURE So all in all, there is reason to the claim that the sex trade as a relative indulgence of overseas visitors has declined over the years, but look more closely and two caveats stand out: 1. If not for the sex trade, packaged tours and incentive tours might not even choose to include Pattaya as a destination. If there wasn't theTiffany Show or Walking Street, would the groups from China and India come? 2. The quality of visitors that Pattaya attracts should be worrying. They are the low spenders, either because they are on all-inclusive packaged tours, or they are from a country like India that is poorer than Thailand. And if the Chinese experience is anything to go by, as soon as a market gets rich enough to produce independent travellers, they skip Pattaya.

Forgive me if I have got it wrong because I only a quick read... You paid (albeit indirectly) for a nice hotel room with a great view, you paid (directly) for an upgrade, but you spent the night in Danshi Gakuen in a windowless room, on a thin mattress, and without an ensuite bathroom. If you had wanted to pee in the middle of the night, you'd have to wake up the boy and ask him to perform the ritual of intercomming with someone for permission to use the bathroom. Have I got it right? 🤔

Coup? There has not been a coup in Vietnam since 1963. Do you mean the coup in Thailand in 2014? But if so, why would a coup cause them to be sent home? Or do you mean the 2021 coup in Burma? Why would that send them home either?

Just watched it, and I'd say it was a pretty good documentary trying to get to grips with what is surely a complicated problem with many moving parts. What struck me was the rather shallow consumerism that has come to afflict younger Thai adults, perhaps fuelled by social media and its depictions of lifestyles. The other thing is how Thais have to pay premium prices for even basic things like transport and education, mostly because the State does not provide. Too many have to send their kids to private schools (public schools have a quality problem?); too many are buying cars - one man featured had both a bike and a car (couldn't he sell one?) - because public transport is so bad. Towards the end of the documentary more warning signals were sent. Job creation will become a tougher and tougher problem, especially when the Thai education system is not up to scratch. With a lower birth rate and possibly only one-child families becoming the norm in the future, young people today cannot hope to depend on their children for their old age like in generations past; if they don't start saving now, it will be an even bigger disaster in a generation's time.

Sounds like you're hoping for company. Some gay bars may have English speaking bar tenders but it would be rare to find an escort boy able to manage more than three words. Also, it would be more helpful to others who come after you to put all your Tokyo adventures in the Japan forum, not this Bangkok thread.

@Polish933 Frankly, I wouldn't risk it. I would get Euros instead. The exchange rate for Euros is not bad at all. See this page from SuperRich (https://www.superrichthailand.com/#!/en/exchange), which has branches in many touristy places, including one along the elevated walkway between Silom MRT and Saladaeng BTS stations. Unfortunately, that means you have to keep your USD to use for another trip e.g. to the USA, or try to change them back to zloty. But it's safer to have clean bills of a recent date than risk it. If you land in Thailand and find that it is very hard to get local currency, it will completely spoil your holiday, and you waste money that you're spending on flights and hotel anyway.

According to a north German acquaintance from decades ago, Swiss German is very tonal "almost like a church organ" he pronounced with magisterial gravity... but I have no first hand knowledge of that. Dear Swiss German members of this board - no offence intended. Some of the world's greatest languages like Chinese are tonal. In fact I learned from the Museum of Languages in Paris that some 60-70% of the world's languages are tonal. Atonal languages are the abnormal ones.🥰

I hope they know what their target market is.

+1

Might this be due to a different tone? If you're not coming from an environment with a tonal language, this will trip you up. That said, these personal tales from first timers to Bangkok are like a lovely breath of fresh air, especially when told with no self consciousness or embarrassment. It helps old-timers like me relive with joy the times when we were once newbies tripping over all sorts of things imaginable.

I am waiting for the part about celibacy 🤣

It seems to me that you need to give thought to possibly similar difficulties for your next leg (130 days in Danang). Do you have a Vietnam visa to cover this entire period? If not, can you be sure that whichever airline that's taking you to Danang will let you board? What will happen when you try to return from Danang to Thailand? Will whichever airline accept your driver's licence as proof of residency in Thailand?

To be fair, the problem was really created by Thailand, not the Philippines. If you have some kind of residency in Thailand, then Thailand should have issued you a document or card to prove it. Not too long ago, someone showed me a "Malaysia Second Home" card, so it seems to me that other countries may be doing this routinely. Thailand in its usual disjointed-policy way, seems to be creating all sorts of residency options, which besides being confusing and potentially vague, don't come with a card or formal documentation? Thailand may think it's OK so long as they have stored the information in their database - which @bkkmfj2648 does not fully trust, thus wanting physical stamps on his passport - but foreign countries and airlines cannot access the Thai databases to verify status. So I would say it's Thailand that created this problem for you, not the Philippines.

On their menu, I just spotted something I had not seen before. It is Kasai Massage, and their description is "a traditional Thai genital therapeutic treatment, is renowned for its focus on promoting sexual and reproductive health benefits. Rooted in ancient healing traditions, this modality aims to stimulate reproductive function and internal organs, addressing issues such as impotency, erection dysfunctions, frequent urination, premature ejaculation, and fertility concerns." (I don't think I have given much thought to fertility concerns.) Sceptics will probably say "Gah, it's just a fancy name for a handjob." However, the menu also says "only certain therapist" will do Kasai. In fact, I counted only 9 of the 28 boys pictured on their website (as of today) who had Kasai listed against their names. That's about one in three. This suggests that there is a set program/choreography to be followed. Optimists might wonder "Is this anything like an edging session?" 365theriver: https://river365th.wixsite.com/365river

But the rainy season won't begin till towards the end of your planned 130-day stay in Danang. And anyway I wasn't referring to the wet season. I was referring to the mid year period when the weather is in the mid thirties but very humid. Days are muggy and sticky. Like in Thailand, I prefer the wet season (even if it comes with storms and some flooding) than the hot humid season in the middle of the calendar year. Rain cools everything down. Actually, we shouldn't be in the Philippines forum for this discussion. Perhaps you will consider opening a similar thread in the Vietnam forum as you prepare for your trip.

It's been a great series of reoprts. I learnt more about Cebu than I ever thought I would ! I note that you're off to Danang late April for a few months. That would coincide with the hot, humid season in Vietnam. Perhaps the seaside part of the city wouldn't be so bad but my previous experience with Vietnam has taught me to avoid this season.

I can think of four reasons: 1. Vacation time and disposable income Even today, Asians seldom make long-stay trips to Thailand. Three to seven days would be typical. Given such short trips most will largely stick to Bangkok, maybe add Chiang Mai or Phuket and not venture beyond. Less disposable income than westerners limits how long they can vacation abroad. Paid annual leave in Asia is way less than in Europe. 2. Sunnee's heyday was before Asian wave came into Thailand Sunnee's heyday was 2000-2010. Chinese outbound tourism to Thailand didn't really take off till after 2008. Nor Korea. The markets of Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore (the richest of Thailand's Asian neighbours), while active during that period, are much smaller than Western countries. Japan is a big market, but its people seem to be very demanding of Japanese-centric attractions. For example, they're numerous enough to keep Thaniya Road thriving, but do we see Japanese in the Patpong bars, just a couple of blocks away? 3. Asians are rarely into skinny fem twinks Again, the Japanese are an outlier; they have a domestic market for skinny fem twinks. But I don't see much demand for this type of boy in other Asian markets. Sunnee was well-known for this type, so there wasn't a good fit between what Sunnee offered and what Asian markets wanted. 4. Host bars are useless for non-English-speaking markets Sunnee had more host bars than gogo bars. Even their gogo bars tended to be hidden behind alfresco host bars, with seats occupied by farangs. I don't think they ever looked appealing to Asian tourists even if they walked by. The problem is language. Did the owners and managers of the Sunnee bars speak Korean, Chinese or Japanese? Did the boys speak any of these languages, even if not fluently or grammatically? Do a thought experiment. Imagine a street full of gay host bars in Vientiane with managers more or less fluent in Chinese, but unable to speak a single word of English. Imagine that the boys there speak some Chinese - not well, but enough for a light chat. No English spoken. Imagine the music they play in the bars mostly comprise the top hits in the Chinese music market. Do you think we will see westerners in these bars? This English-centric host bar concept is replicated in Jomtien. Do we see Asian customers there? Do we see Russian customers there? Yet, both come to Thailand in huge numbers.

I have noticed this too, and pinned right at the top of the Colombia forum (if I got that right) is a thread about Medellin murders 😳 Another thing I have noticed is that in the Dominican Republic forum, the only criterion applied is dick size. Our friends there don't seem to care about height, weight, age, service capability, etc... All those details we're talking about here in this thread about Line advertising. They just want enormous dicks not caring who these pieces of meat are attached to. 🤣

The Joe Orton Diaries! I read it in my formative years. It was so engrossing I must have read the whole thing in one sitting, skipping classes and all. Most memorable were his accounts of his visits to Tangier (Morocco), renting a house or sharing with friends, and having boys come over. It was so exciting. He was such a good writer, those adventures jumped off the pages as real and alive. He wrote of somnolent bars with shady side businesses, pimps, boys of unreliable honesty, and duds in bed. Little did I imagine in my younger days that that "lifestyle" and very similar experiences would be mine as well today! Oh, what joy! - the glorious book and the degenerate lifestyle!

I don't find eating in Japan expensive - provided one is prepared to eat at places the locals eat. I too am more than happy at the tiny family-run restaurants; they serve good food for less than 1500 yen most times. Occasionally, I've had a lovely ramen meal for under 1000 yen. Sure, it's still more expensive than eating in Thailand at places Thais eat, but I find that for the Thai price (e.g their food courts), hygiene standards are somewhat suspect and too many dishes are too spicy for me. As for Chinese tourists, don't underestimate their purchasing power. Also, unlike many Westerners, they will find Japanese food relatively familiar, so it's hardly difficult for them to eat at local Japanese eateries. I doubt if meal costs in Japan is much of a factor in choosing Japan as a destination.

Oddly enough, I once spotted a commuter on the NY subway watching porn on his cellphone. It was pretty late at night and the carriage wasn't packed, but other passengers weren't that far away.I was seated next to him, for example! That said, yes, I agree with @PeterRS such a scene would be remarkable in NY, but not remarkable at all in Japan.

I agree with all of you; in fact I had come to the same conclusion as to the business dynamics long ago. This was why my question was really a different one, from the angle of the customer's preference. It was prompted by a passing mention from a friend who said that one particular Japanese site wouldn't work for him because he absolutely had to see faces before making a selection, and that site blurred out faces. He didn't much care about the stats; he just had to have faces. So, my question was from a customer's perspective: do you all ask for stats and service capability if these are not published? Or are faces and beautiful bodies enough for you to make a selection, not caring about the stats (or quite happy to take your chances)?

Unlike the boy agencies in Japan, almost all of whom maintain up-to-date websites complete with boys' stats, availability (by the hour, too!) and the precise service they will deliver, the massage parlours in Bangkok seldom have websites, and when they do, the information tends to be very general or dated. I am reminded of what @vinapu said in the thread "New Silom hotel opens" about businesses needing to have the resource to monitor and update [websites] regularly, though "resource" in my view is a polite way of saying these business owners and managers are too lazy to learn the basics of maintaining a webpage. But I understand that maybe it is not as useful to a business that relies on local customers in Thailand - as just about all massage parlours do - if Thais themselves do not have a habit of visiting websites. Unlike in richer nations, laptops are far from universal. Just about all people in 3rd world countries like India, Thailand, Indonesia, would choose to own a smart phone rather than a laptop if money is tight and they cannot afford both. Yet, I was thinking, even so, why is the information provided on their Line advertising relatively patchy and inconsistent compared to the Japanese sites? A few Thai massage businesses actually do quite well in this respect. For example, Kman and Phetboy consistently put out height, weight and condom size information, expected tip, together with "T" or "T&B" annotation to accompany the photo(s). Some parlours also add age. That said, I think it was @reader who experienced a failure of Phetboy to ensure that the booked boy was there on time; and this is the kind of disrepute that no shop can afford however fantastic their social media presence. On the other hand, places like Jey Spa (I scrolled through a few months of their Line advertising) do not put out any information. They just publicise a facepic. BT House is like that too, except that once in a blue moon, it publishes stats of one boy. One. I should mention TK Massage, but I honestly don't know what to say! Other places are in-between. Either they put out just body stats and nothing else, or they mostly send out only pictures, with the occasional blast containing stats (for a few of the boys, not all). So here's my question for members of this forum: How much do you need these items of information to be able to make a selection: - height - weight - age - condom size - service role - expected tip - availability by day? An additional question: How important is it to see a mostly-unclothed boy in the photo (like the Japanese sites) rather than one with clothes on? I know one can always message the shop to ask, but wouldn't it be easier to just publish the information the way Phetboy and Kman do? Because having to ask and then reply to enquiries with asked-for details is just extra work for the customer and the manager.

I would have thought the easiest way to raise money from tourists in order to reinvest in tourism infrastructure or provide insurance would be to tax hotel accommodation when with a waiver or rebate if the hotel guest happens to be Thai national. Of course, this needs to be supplemented either with enforcement against AirBnB rentals of under 30 days, or else change the law and allow AirBnB for less than 30 days and impose the tax on those too. I know, I know. Thailand is famous for enacting all sorts of laws but not enforcing them.

Just about all other countries' electronic arrivals notification can be submitted a few days in advance. In fact "in advance" is the desired part, so that the immigration system knows to expect you, watch out for health risks, etc. If a tax is to be linked to this, then the e-arrivals system will need to be linked to an e-payment gateway, making it perhaps the world's most complicated arrivals notification system. And then the e-payment option must cater to lots of different travelers including those 3rd countries like India that do not have an easy way for their citizens to make a foreign currency remittance easily. Or the rate of commission will be very high, (15-30%) for small amounts like 300 baht. Yet Thailand wants to attract visitors from there! Some official has been thinking out of his ass.