macaroni21

Robert Reich is a well known economist and public policy commentator Here's my next question: Is the same phenomenon happening in the gogo bars of Thailand? - prices going up for no added value; - wealth flowing to the top (think: boys in brown); - underpaid labour.... What about massage parlours?

This is the part one has to watch out for: £4 - £6 sounds very cheap by Western standards, and comes across as more an invitation to book with this hotel than a barrier. It's good that @Pantherz is asking because those of us familiar with Pattaya might be able to advise if there are even any taxis there. I can't answer this question because I have never stayed south of Jomtien Complex, but having visited Pattaya many times, I hardly see taxis in the traditional sense. Grab cars maybe, but then they are unmarked, so I don't have visibility into that. What I can say is that £4 - £6 is equivalent to 175 - 250 baht, which is not the amount I would pay for transport in this town short of having to be rushed to hospital. When I stayed in downtown Pattaya earlier this month, I travelled to Jomtien for 10 baht (albeit in a songtaew), which is one-twentieth of the "cheap" taxi rate mentioned in the above graphic. Context is everything.

There is Jomtien Palm Beach Hotel and Resort, on Jomtien beach road, about 100m from the Dongtan police post. Claims to be a 5-star hotel on Booking.com, but quoting me a price of under 10,000 baht for a 5-night stay. Cheapest room of course but still... Draw your own conclusions. https://www.booking.com/Share-YdP3Ht

Too far not only because of distance, but I suspect also very poor availability of transport, especially if you stay out late. I would suggest you decide which is your main priority: gay scene/fun or tropical beach? This hotel is likely to give you neither. If your top priority is the beach - warm ocean waters, low-rise bungalows in lush verdant settings, Pattaya/Jomtien will disappoint. Try Krabi perhaps or the resorts of Phuket (outside of Patong town). No gay life unless you bring your own. If your top priority is the gay scene, then it won't be very fruitful to look for tropical beach resorts, least of all 4-star or 5-star places. All over the world the gay scene tends to be located in urban settings. Some of us even feel the grittier or grungier, the better.🤪

I read about this years and years ago. Never been there though. Am surprised not only that it's still operating, but as popular as that.

I chanced upon the same DW.com video again*, now publicly available on Youtube. They have put it up under a different URL, with a different title too: Now it is "Sex tourists in Thailand". *Youtube's algorithm for me must be a simple one: SEX, SEX, SEX. 🤣 Note: nothing gay in this DW.com documentary; all about girl sex. As I mentioned earlier in my opening post, the video documentary shifts back and forth between sex tourism and paedophilia with no clear distinction between the two. The tourists interviewed were also pretty bad at pushing back against the moralistic undertone of the interviewer's questions. An underwhelming piece of journalism.

Since when has Somchai been less masculine? Funny that, I have a Thai name too. It's Mek. I gave up on getting them to do the long vowel in Mack.

@floridarob Just a word of thanks for the tip Nok Laundry. Their service was excellent. In fact, when I asked the lady what time I should come back the next day to pick up my clothes (I sent them in at about 11am) she said to come back at 6pm. today. I did, and they were ready. Note: they close at 7pm. I have now included Nok Laundry in my new map of Pattaya 's gay area: https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2023/12/14/map-of-pattayaland-area-december-2023/

Thanks, I know about that food court for airport employees, but considering it was lunch hour, I didn't want to make my way there because in previous lunch hours I have found the place very full. And I didn't make clear (sorry) that in my earlier post, I was referring to the transit areas in Singapore's Changi airport, not the public areas. Their food court is in the transit area, whereas in Suvarnabhumi, all the transit area F&Bs are overpriced. Yes, I'm sure @thaiophilus was referring to that one.

So, did you visit?

Did you get a new passport stamp when visiting Langkawi?

It has fallen very far, and I think the fall is totally deserved. I also notice how the article glosses over the problems it had at the beginning, which required expensive fixes. Some board members may remember. 1. Insufficient toilets in the terminal building. 2. Ground subsidence below the runways. 3. Greenhouse effect from all the glass in the roof. There was a time when each immigration desk had to have a silly little umbrella over it otherwise the poor officer would be roasted in the course of a shift. If I'm not wrong, it was designed by a European (French?) architect - who obviously knew nothing about tropical climates. In any case, looking at the perpetual mess that is Charles de Gaulle airport, I don't know if the French are the best people to hire to design airports. Even now, there are two fundamental flaws in the concept behind the airport. Firstly, Suvarnabhumi was designed as a single terminal to handle a large number of flights. According to this list, it handled 28 million passengers in 2022, a little less than the 32 million handled by Singapore Changi airport, and less than half of Dubai's 66 million. If you've transited through Singapore or Dubai recently, you will have noticed the vast difference. Dubai has three terminals and Singapore has four. You don't have everybody crowding into a single choke point. Those other airports are almost serene in comparison to Suvarnabhumi, despite handling more passengers. Secondly, Suvarnabhumi is still stuck with the notion of glamour travel. Too many shops feature dutyfree luxury goods, a poor fit with the mass travel of today. Food and drink are also overpriced inside the terminal's transit areas. There was one time when I was transiting through Suvarnabhumi and I just needed a ballpoint pen. I had a notebook, I wanted to write something, but it was impossible to find a shop selling the humble ballpoint pen. On another occasion, I was flying off from Bangkok to another destination and saw on the weather report that it was raining heavily in the destination (whose airport was pretty basic, and planes are often remotely parked). I thought I would buy a water-proof jacket/windbreaker, but it took a lot of walking from shop to shop to find one under $100 without a brandname. On a recent transit stop in Singapore, I could buy useful things like a charger, plug adapter and (if I wanted) a powerbank. I was also impressed by signs in a food court (yes, they had a food court) that said something about how their prices were not different from their outlets downtown. Sure, SIngapore prices are not cheap even in downtown, but at least you get the idea that the operators are not trying to scalp you. It only reminded me of how a humble bowl of noodles that I had in the Suvarnabhumi basement (where the airport train arrives) cost 270 baht!

Years ago, I had a friend who either owned or leased a small apartment in Bangkok because he made such frequent trips to Thailand it seemed justified. Invited to his home for coffee one afternoon, I noticed he had a disco ball hanging from the ceiling of the living room.. "You had a party last night?" I asked. "From which bar, may I ask?" He hummed and hawed by didn't deny it was a bar.

Was in and out of Suvarnabhumi twice in the past month. I can similarly report: Fully packed area in front of arrival immigration desks; a bit of chaos around the luggage belts as two flights had to share the same belt. 300-long queues at Thai Airways check-in on departure; fully packed room in front of security scanners in departure; fully packed room in front of exit Immigration desks in departure.

You may be confusing travel with another irresistible, pleasurable activity....

I was surpised too when I saw that statistic some years ago, but after a moment's reflection, it seemed perfectly logical. Half of Kazahstan's population is ethnic Russian, and ethnic or not, Russian is widely spoken in the country. Given the infux of Russian tourists to Thailand for the past decade, I would assume that Russian media (probably much consumed in Kazakhstan) has a lot of content about Phuket and Pattaya. Kazakhstan too has bitter winters. Oh, and did I mention its GDP per capita is about US$10,000, close to Russia's and China's?

In response to @PeterRS, 1. That defies logic. Of course disposable income is a factor. It will not be the only factor. Other factors like distance, cultural affinity, bragging value play a part. But if a country is poor and the vast majority of its people do not have enough disposable income to travel, then it cannot be much of a market for inbound toruists to Thailand. Consider this: we've all probably seen more Singaporeans in Thailand than Filipinos even though they're about the same distance away, and even though the population of the Philippines is 20x that of Singapore. Or this: If disposable income doesn't matter there should be more Egyptian tourists in Thailand than Brits (Egypt has a larger population). More importantly, I was referring to potential rather than the actual situation with respect to Chinese tourists in this and next year. I agree that China's economy is going through a rough patch, and these cycles tend to last 3 - 5 years if managed properly by the authorities (which is not a sure thing). I was reacting to this statement in the news report that @reader cited from the Thaiger: I am saying that's too superficial a hope. India's potential certainly can be tapped, but to think that its potential is anywhere as large as China's (in the short to medium term) is to ignore economic reality. The main issue is the disposable income of Indians. That was why I cited the per capita GDP. Of course in any country, there are the rich and the poor, but they are generally distributed as a curve around the per capita GDP. India's curve is centred around US$2,300, while China's is centred around $12,500. Here's a schematic showing what that means in terms of disposable income for luxuries such as foreign travel: Generally, only the fraction of a country's population with income above US$8,000 or $10,000 can afford to travel by air (I'm not referring to ferries or land transport). Because India's average is so low, its relevant fraction (the numbers on the right-hand side of the curve) is small relative to China's. More crucially, for independent travel (which usually comes with more spending in the host country) I think affordability comes into view only if the disposable income is about US$16,000. This implies that a $1,000 holiday in Thailand (perhaps $400 for flight alone) will eat up nearly a month's income for someone in the $16,000 bracket. So India's potential is smaller yet. If at all Thailand gets the volume they're hoping for from India, they will be at the cheap packaged tour end of the spectrum. In terms of value to Thailand's economy, this may be no different from the zero-packages people complain about. Consider also that Thailand's GDP per capita is about US$7,000, or three times higher than India's. That will tend to mean that Indians, even if they can afford to travel, are likely to find Thailand an expensive destination compared to their home countries. This is going to put a limit to how long they can afford to stay in Thailand or the kinds of places they are prepared to pay admission for. 2. This needs to be interpreted with great care. I agree there are now more wealthy Indian tourists than ever because India's economy has grown. Thailand has become more accessible through better connectivity, the privatisation of India's airlines, etc. But the fact that they shop like crazy is in fact an indicator that supports what I am saying. Why don't we see the Chinese shopping to the same extent, even when they can afford to? Why don't we see the rich Japanese or Germans do the same? Because they can get all that stuff in their home countries. I don't know if you have seen the urban centres of second-tier Chinese cities lately, such as Chongqing and Dalian. The famous brand names like Dior and Balenciaga all have huge stores there now, not just in Shanghai and Beijing. The rich Indians shop more visibly in Bangkok because they don't have easy access to "international" goods the way the Chinese, Europeans, Japanese and Koreans do -- which only speaks to the relative disposable income of the Chinese that has motivated the brands to set up there. In short, there are potential rich Indians, but their numbers will be much smaller than rich Chinese. At every level, midprice independent travellers or cheap packaged mass travellers, the potential Indian market is smaller than the Chinese. 3. Re high end tourism, I should have been clearer. Of course I agree that Thailand has this segment. My point is that this segment is very hard to develop and grow in terms of infrastructure. It needs quality manpower, linguistically agile and skilled. It needs environmental awareness (we were just mentioning pollution in Bangkok). Given Thailand's education system, there are severe constraints. The alternative, converting the existing service providers at the low end of the market to high end is a bit of a pipe-dream. What I was trying to say is that even if by some magic Thailand attracts rapidly growing numbers of high end tourists, Thailand will struggle to have enough infrastucture to cope. 4. Pattaya = mass market. Point taken. Agree. But what I am saying is that if they're looking at India as their next big market, then it is going to be mostly (by a long way) mass market, low end. My point is that this only shows several logical inconsistencies with current planning. 6. Insufficient holiday time for the Japanese, I take your point. I wonder if it's also true of Koreans. So then, Taiwanese and Australians should be favoured over Indians as marketing targets. Finally, the effort to open the Indian market (valuable though it may be) should not overshadow a needed affort to address the concerns of Chinese tourists, otherwise they may never return even when their economy improves. Safety is obviously an issue, though as we all know, it's overblown by sensationalistic media. Surely, countering such media protrayals is do-able? Better yet, do something about safety in Thailand itself. The locals will benefit.

One group of high-spending tourists Thailand needs to encourage would of course be us. Infrastructure development could take this form: 1. Work visas liberally available to Laos, Cambodians, Burmese and Vietnamese who work in the tourism or entertainment sector. 2. Grants for such businesses to take on management and marketing consultants so as to upgrade their business models. 3. Business redevelopment grants for gogo bars and massage parlours, and similar establishments, to enable better premises, training for show performances, etc. 4. Build affordable hostels for the upcountry and foreigner boys who work in this sector. 5. Grants for these boys to take English or other language courses. ...yes I know I am dreaming.🤣

This article reveals the superficial quality of tourism planning and management in Thailand. Just let me pick on a few logical fallacies. Indian mass tourism cannot replace Chinese mass tourism. Although both countries have the same population size, China's per capital GDP is US$12,500, whereas India's is US$2,300. Travel is not one of life's necessities, and a population needs to have sufficient disposable income to become a tourist export market. It is not a linear equation either where the Chinese have five times as much capability of being a tourist simply because their per capita GDP is five times India's. They're probably 10-15 times more able to travel abroad; at US$2,300, the vast majority of Indians just cannot afford the luxury of any foreign travel. As the anecdote about Taiwanese tourists suggests, Thailand may be better off promoting itself to Japan, Korea and Australia as regional markets - countries with the income similar or higher than the Taiwanese. In any case, haven't there been concerns about mass tourism and its impact on the environment? Shouldn't priority be given to higher-spending tourists rather than more headcount? Or is the KPI of tourism officials purely that of headcount? Of course, the trouble is also that Thailand has not truly developed its tourist infrastructure to serve higher spending tourists. Hundreds of Thais do menial low-skill jobs, unable to speak English or other languages even when working in the tourism sector, so there is that other problem - these workers can only serve low-end tourists. This raises the question of whether, even if they promoted the country to the richer Asian countries, the infrastructure can cope. For a glimpse of the impact of mass Indian tourism, look at Pattaya. I saw loads of them just hanging around the streets. They cannot afford to patronise the restaurants or cafes or anywhere that requires payment. They walk up and down Beach Road and Walking Street, and don't go in to any establishment (with one exception) Even the numerous Indian restaurants meant to serve them remain empty. Instead, they can be found in 7-11's buying bread and asking why 7-11 doesn't sell butter. (I'm not kidding, I and many others were held up at the cashier line because of this.) The exception is foot massage. 200 baht for an hour of foot massage they can afford. But as I overheard one masseuse tell a farang visitor (maybe he's an expat who lives in Pattaya, because they seemed to know each other well), "They so many, we work no stop. One come, another come, but they no tip."

I had never even heard of it. But a quick check with Google Maps shows that it is quite accessible, being a skip and hop from Rama IX MRT station. Oh well, too late, now.

I noticed the haziness of the skyline while coming into Bangkok from Pattaya on Sunday, almost exactly like the photo in Bangkok Post. I've never seen this before during the cool season.

How are they going to tell who is a businessman and who is not? More of the bureaucratic surreality like we're seeing with the 4am closing time.

How is a bar to know whether a customer is driving or not? And @PeterRS question about leaving at 3:39 am? How are bars to know who a customer's friends and relatives are, and their phone numbers? And many more questions. Oh gosh, it boggles the mind.

Not a bar at all. A tiny shop selling lingerie and the like, probably suitable only for gogo girls. Don't see it surviving too long. The girl gogo business in Patpong is in decline.

I see a scattershot response that does not engage with the issue at hand - which is that of overcharging by businesses through unethical practices ( not a supply and demand issue) though fortunately, it did not occur in this instance. At no time was the question of what revengeboo was willing to pay the issue, and no one was calling him out on that - which is how you're changing the discussion. The uncertainty, which has since been resolved, was whether he was asked to pay more than he had agreed to pay. That you're conflating the two scenarios is what I mean by a scattershot response. Scattershot responses that go off tangent generally indicate that the debate has been lost. It's also disappointing to see a hint of contempt for those in the sex business. Why can't it be a "noble enterprise"? As much as we hold ourselves to high standards of ethics and integrity in our dealings with others, why do we expect less of those running sex businesses or sex workers themselves? When we say we shouldn't be concerned if they cheat because we are rich, it really amounts to the view that they cannot be as worthy as us, cannot be held to the same standards of honesty and integrity as us, simply because they are poorer. What has honesty to do with wealth? One may think one is being generous to overlook the loss when the other party engages in deception, but in fact such an attitude is a mark of disrespect and contempt ("they cannot be expected to be my equal in terms of honour and integrity"). On the contrary, it is precisely my holding those in the sex business to the same high standard which demonstrates my respect for them as equal humans.