Marc308

Hey Peter, For sure we will miss you and your erudite and interesting posts. Like you I am also tiring of the "and tonight we visited Bar X and Bar Y and offed Boy A and Boy B". Seriously, isn't there more to life? For me the great fascination I have with Thailand (after visits spanning 30 years) is trying to understand its amazing "scene" (in the largest sense of that word) and how it differs from my home culture. For some years I posted quite regularly but my posts generated little interest, so I soon recognized I was out of step with the majority of people on the board -- who seem to be in their 20's and 30's (or so their posts would indicate <wink>). I abandoned the bars years ago, as I could not countenance supporting the Thai Mafia with my funds. I don't smoke, I drink very moderately. And I detest the "sit down and drink!" attitude at most bars (which bkkm.. often rails about.) Like OldDaddy I much prefer the serendipity and unexpected delights of using "gaydar" and intuition to land the perfect tryst. When enjoying the amazing pleasures of a kind "service provider" (as latin likes to call them), I much prefer to spend my funds supporting his needs, and hopefully his dreams, not those of a corrupt underground.

Bravo, ichigo! Language imbeds so much culture, attitude, nuance. Translating this is difficult. Let me give one example: In Hawaiian we have the word "Imua!" which translates to English as "go forward". Alas it means so much more -- it was used by ancient canoe paddlers transiting between Honolulu and Tahiti (4000 kms!) as a word of encouragement: "keep on paddling!" "let's get there!" "come on we only have 3 days more!" ... well all of this is a far cry from "go forward". Bottom line, please learn the language of your host country if you want to participate in its cultural life. Or, the easiest way to destroy a culture is to destroy its language.

Learning to speak paasaa Thai is a real privilege. It means that Thailand is willing to share a bit of its culture with us. Of course, it is not absolutely necessary you learn to speak Thai. One could theoretically live in the UK or Canada without speaking English, but you would be strongly disadvantaged. You'd necessarily be ghettoized to live in a community which speaks your language instead of being able to roam freely. I suppose, thanks to AI, in the not too distant future we will have devices which go far beyond what Google Translate can do. I would find that eventuality somewhat sad, because so much of culture is wrapped up into language. I hope Thailand doesn't become Anglicized one day after all the centuries which Thailand has mostly successfully resisted colonization.

Interesting. I happen to like "shorter" men, more compact and "manageable".

high heels for men?

Hi Rob, The Allianz annual "Premier" plan (the intermediate-level plan) has a maximum trip length of 90 days. Not sure if that means one must return to one's home country every 90 days or whether one could go on to start a new "trip" to a third country for another 90 days and then (presumably) be able to return to Thailand for another 90 days. Not sure how it works, but you are right it definitely does not cover you if you plan to spend "a year" in Thailand. Aloha, Marc

I couldn't agree more. In all my visits to Cambodia (including cities in the north, PP, Sihanoukville and other towns in the south, everywhere but the east region bordering Vietnam) I never once had an unpleasant encounter with a Cambodian. Anybody who has visited the Killing Fields gets an idea about what the senior population has been through: Pol Pot and his "reformers" and murders, the American bombardments, the Vietnamese invasion, and Chinese meddling over the past few centuries! Somehow through this all the Cambodia spirit has pushed through. It is truly remarkable how resilient the human spirit can be and how adaptive it can remain under even the most strident forms of corruption.

Peter, your advice is very sensible. A visit to Pulse Clinic would make a lot of sense. But, regarding A/C, we have to remember that much of the world exists without A/C, and it feels very uncomfortable to some. They shiver, wrap themselves in swaddling clothes, and chatter their teeth sometimes. Seriously. And the opposite is true -- have you given a Thai boy a "hot shower"? You would think you were trying to scald them to death, as many are only used to room temperature showers with water scooped from the catchment tank near their home.

yes i meant northern Fall

@bkkmfj2648 Thanks for your reflections. I hope things are going well for you! I thought I'd share my plan, which works for me: I spend 2-3 months a year there, usually in Fall, during shoulder season. For healthcare, I buy the travel insurance which allows the longest continuous stay (Allianz, for max 90 day stay). I study paasaa Thai and have become better and can now read most signs. I love my stays in Thailand for all the obvious reasons but by the end of my stay I am looking forward to being home once again. As the saying goes, there is no place like home. When in Thailand I try to allow for a stay in some neighboring country. This year (September?) I am planning a trip to Sri Lanka which is a country which has always fascinated me. Alternatively perhaps a trip to Nepal. Neither country I have visited thus far. I've been doing this circuit now for 17 years and it works for me. Being a full-time expat really would not work for me.

Battambang is a great little city! I think you will like it. I would go back in a heartbeat. The other posters here are correct that SR is far more cosmopolitan and international, and of course Angkor is one of the world's top attractions. You can spend a week in that place and never see it all. There is not all that much to do in Battambang by comparison but that suited me just fine. It is a friendly place which hasn't (yet) been overrun by the Chinese. It is not THAT close between Battambang and Siem Reap. Nor from either of those cities to PP. Remember this is not Denver and Boulder! Hehe. Getting around is quite an ordeal. You will likely not be flitting back and forth on a "daily commute" What can I say... learning Khmer is not easy, not that Thai is that much easier, but it is worth the effort. To me you can never been fully aware of your new country without language. Think of it this way: What would Cam's life be like in Denver given he speaks only rudimentary English? It is a non-starter. Then there is a matter of religion. Assuming he is Buddhist (although some Khmer are Catholic as a result of French occupation), religion has a way of permeating life, especially in the countryside. Finally, you got a peak at the difference in medical practice. You will likely be aghast at some medical practices and even more at some superstitions. Animist faith healings, quack doctors, bizaar "cures" etc are part of the drama. May I tell you a short story? When working in Mongolia, a female colleague of mine came to work one day with gigantic staples in her ear lobes. They looked very painful. This lady had a graduate degree from a US university, was 100% fluent in English, yet she believed in this treatment from a local doctor for her recurrent ear infections. I tried to not look totally dumbfounded, but I don't know how successful I was. Asian "medicine" can appear quite bizarre at times to a Western viewer. Just go with the flow and smile.

Of course we all wish you and Cam the best! As I said in my original post, you are about to embark/have already embarked on a great adventure, perhaps the greatest adventure of your life. I have some points of reflection: 1. What ended your relationship in Taiwan? Taiwan is far more developed an economy than Thailand. Are you sure you are prepared for the simpler life of (rural) Siem Reap? 2. How is your Khmer language? You talk of indepth discussions with Cam, but is this realistic? He speaks good Englisih? You speak good Khmer? (I presume neither is the case.) If so, this is going to make serious discussions more difficult (even with Google translate, which doesn't do a good job of translating subtle expressions). 3. Peter mentioned having a Plan B if (God forbid) things go south. This is wise in all relationship situations, even more so in those that are fraught with cultural differences. 4. Is Cam suited for construction work? Since he didn't tell his parents the truth about his occupation in Thailand, it might be difficult for him to get/sustain a job in construction in his home country which construction practices seem even more perilous and primitive than in Thailand. Bottom line is we all want you to succeed and are rooting for you, but you need to know, and be sober about, the uphill battles you will need to climb. Lord knows that ALL relationships are difficult. Lord knows that gay relationship are even more difficult to sustain. (On that point, I don't worry so much about how the family reacts to you, but rather how the gossipers in his community react to you. If you are strong, and if your love is even stronger, you will be able to move confidently ahead in BLISS. Chok dee krub! Marc

Gosh I don't know what information I can offer: Cambodia has been through a lot -- Pol Pot massacres, Vietnamese invasion, Chinese invasion, brutal French colonialism, American carpet bombing and mining. The financial system is pretty messed up -- with the USD becoming the de facto Cambodian currency, and its own currency being considered chump change alas. The psyche of the country is badly bruised, you can kind of feel it there. The current generation (Cam's generation) is trying to reset but until their parents and grandparents pass on, it will remain. I don't know how anybody who lived through the "Killing Fields" can brush it off, they are trying. Maybe this will help you understand Cam's parents when you meet them. You can expect to find parents who love their son unconditionally, and support him in whatever life he chooses. They thank him for sending money to them regularly (which helps them survive). They of course wish for a good life for him. That all said, if you can remain deeply respectful of them, they are unlikely to resent you. In fact they are mostly likely to make you feel comfortable and welcome in their home. My advice is to practice "strategic ambiguity" when it comes to your relationship with Cam, calling him a dear friend, someone you trust and value, and someone you enjoy staying with. They will understand (probably more than you ever will know). Good luck! You are about to undertake a great adventure.

Just spent time in Europe (Portugal, Spain, France). During the 4 weeks of my stay, I paid nearly nothing in cash. Even the public toilets in France that charge 1 euro accept tap to pay options (including Apple Pay). I was amazed how few times I even had to drag out my credit card. Now, switch to Thailand, where "cash is (still) king" amazingly enough. What gives? Thailand has a really ubiquitous QR-based payment system (Prompt Pay) which is (still) unaccessible by foreigners (who do not have a Thai bank account). There have been a few initiatives, those from Kasitikorn Bank, for example, but all (?) the methods which exist still only can transact with "business" accounts and offer lousy exchange rates: So forget paying in street markets, with street vendors, or with people (therapists?) who often do have personal accounts but which you cannot pay. When is Thailand finally going to modernize its payment systems? India (UPI), GCash (in the Philippines), PromptPay (but only if you have a Thai bank account) are great systems which work well. Let's get with it. Politics: The GoT is intent on limiting VE stays to 30 days saying they want to cut down financial monkey business and money laundering. A far more effective way is to regularize cash flows. Or, as the Indians did a few years back, is to overnight change all 1,000 rupee notes to new ones. I wonder if the Thais might also try that approach with purple notes one day?

It confused me as well. Coming from Hawaii, I thought it was a misspelling of the largest island (Hawaii) in our archipelago, or perhaps of the Garden Isle (Kau'ai). It was all very confusing until I learned the word was not Polynesian at all, but rather Japanese.

You might remember the Midnight Cowboy bar in Saphan Kwai from (many) years ago. The mamasan (from Hong Kong) there was a very realistic person when it came to describing the boy trade. "Would you rather work for an hour in a nice air conditioned hotel room... or work for a few weeks in a steamy, mosquito-infested rice paddy?" She said she thought that most go-go boys were basically lazy, wanting to earn money as easily and as quickly as possible. She also pointed out that in order to attract a nice girlfriend, they need money. "No girl wants to date a poor boy" she reasoned. Now just to put this all in context... at the time, when asked if 500 baht was acceptable, she replied "that would be very generous". Times have obviously changed. Isaan boys are no longer restricted to being a rice farmer, but... ?

The Curse of the Tiny Unit Ah that Chinese money export policy ($50k max) might explain why so many of "new" units are minuscule in size. I recently rented at 29sqm 1 bedroom unit at Copacabana. For one person (with occasional visitors) it was adequate, but would be claustrophobic for two persons, or for a long-term stay. A modern two-bedroom unit of a decent size is nearly impossible to find in buildings built in the past 10 years.

I was in Pattaya in January, supposedly the height of the high season, right? What was interesting is that the price of accommodation (I stayed at Copacabana), the price of street food and (yes) the price of a companion was the same as when I visited in the lowest part of the low season (August, September) last year. It's amazing really how stable these prices in these categories even though demand varies so much. The only thing that varied A LOT was the price of airfare which doubled in January. And now with the Strait of Hormuz closing down, I guess we should expect those prices to climb (perhaps precipitously) alas.

Thanks V I appreciate hearing your perspective on all this. I understand that if my perspective were to dominate, the bars would soon crumble (as they already have in BT and SP). 1. I realize there is this aura of "safety" around the bar scene. Of course most of it is sheer fabrication. In the old days, we were told that the boys were regularly screened for STDs and HIV. That was a ruse. Then we were told we could complain to the mamasan if provided services were substandard. Well good luck with that one too. 2. Your argument about "touch and sniff" reminds me of the early objections to using Amazon (and some other ecommerce disintermediated sites). Yes you can disappointed by quality, sure it is possible. I can recall times when offing someone from the bar yielded a boy who "turned a switch" the moment he left the bar, leading to disappointment. It happens from either source. 3. Finally, I was talking about the bars only. Massage houses, saunas (do I miss Babylon!), and other establishments where meetings are possible is a slightly different matter. We do agree, for example, on Arena which I happen to like. At least in this situation you pay for a room from your "fee" not pay for nothing (as has been adequately documented by the OP and throughout this thread). 4. Also I was not talking specifically about apps either. While I do use them, the pain of using the "free" version will drive you crazy. And the prices they charge (I am talking about you, Grindr!) to rid oneself of most of the annoyances is crazy high. I realize if time is of the essence perhaps bars are the more expedient way to go. If you have some time though, I think serendipity is a far more satisfying way to explore. Let me give you one example: I had a farang friend in Pattaya who specialized in mototaxi boys. He was an aficionado about who was available, about how to strike the deal, what to look for, what to be wary of, etc. He definitely got many interesting "rides" alright!

Screw the bar mafia. Who needs middlemen? One of the founding principles of the Internet is/was "disintermediation". Why not use it? I prefer the money go to the service provider.

Isn't capitalism interesting!? A transaction occurs when/if the lowest price which a seller will accept is meets the highest price the buyer agrees to pay. It is how stock trading is done on Wall Street and it is true for lust markets as well. A bit sad but true.

You are right, there are always some risk involved. You don't want to be under the influence, overly tired, or not feeling well. That way you can use your best intuition and observation to limit those risks as much as possible, whether the danger be bodily harm, theft or disease. It is interesting to consider how those risks have changed over time. With doxy and Prep the disease risks have been lowered. Be careful with using translation apps alas, since you don't want your (unlocked!) phone to be grabbed away from you. In the past you maybe risked losing a few tan notes, now you might risk losing your whole digital life to the phone snatcher. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, non?

One has to ask where workers will come from: 1. Thailand -- very few Thais in the bars. Some available on the apps. Fewer in the future as Thailand's economy continues to become more urban. 2. Vietnam -- it is plain to see the growing economy there might overtake Thailand in coming years, having the same result as Thailand. 3. Cambodia -- border skirmishes will make/have made it more and more difficult for Cambodians to stay for extended periods of time in LOS. 4. Laos -- the pull of China (and Laotian indebtedness to China) is very evident these days. It meas Laos, and to some extent Cambodia as well (look at Sihanoukville), are being dragged deeper into the Chinese orbit and away from ASEAN. 5. Myanmar -- if you've been to Chiang Mai lately, you know that many (most?) of workers there are Burmese, specially from Shan State, where the civil situation is precarious to say the least. Shan borders northern Thailand and the border is porous.

We can only hope that the re-imagined "Fun Bar" might actually be fun, not yet another boring "sit-down-and-drink-bar". As someone who drinks very sparingly, I've always wondered how I should behave in such bars. Ordering a coke or nam som only leads to a sugar high. Ordering a ginger ale doesn't seem appropriate either and makes one feel wimpish. Or, gasp, asking for an ice water. Really this has bugged me for years, and, on occasion, has led to my drinking alcohol more than my body appreciates, which I later regret and certainly isn't "fun" for me. At least, thank god, most of the bars now prohibit smoking. I say "most" because last time I was in A-Bomb most of the depressed customers were smoking like chimneys.

Yes I agree it is a useful discussion, thanks Mac. You are right, the owners as a rule have no sense about what attracts certain sub-populations so they try everything (or is it nothing other than "lust sells!"?) And you are right, the contrast of marketing tactics between the bars and the (Bangkok) massage houses is truly amazing: The latter provides photos, stats, availability via Line every day! I don't imagine it costs them much to do so since the marketing is online. My prediction is that either the "gay scene" is going to have to wise up and run things using modern segmentation marketing and pricing techniques (via smartphone), OR these fallbacks to the 1980's era will continue to fade away as the old-style farang customer (us) fades further and further into the past.