SolaceSoul

First you complain that the sauna garotos' smiles and chit-chat with clients are all fake and just for money. Now you complain that a garoto looked too bored at a restaurant with an older man who may or may have not been a client. There's just no winning with you.

Just a suggestion, but instead of staying the entire 90 days at once, you'd be better off staying a few days less just in case of an emergency. In the event that something unforeseen comes up and you have to overstay your visa even by 1 day, you might have a very big problem entering the country again.

You're free to spend your time and money elsewhere if you don't like it. It's a big world out there.

My answer: NO. I love the Brazilian sauna culture. I find it relaxing and engaging. Some people enjoy winding down at coffee shops, at a movie theatre, or watching TV. I much prefer a trip to the sauna. It's not for everyone. If you don't like it or tire of it (or it tires of you), then find something else to do with your time. Problem solved.

My experience and observations are that the "body boys" (the garotos known for the best, most built physiques) do not even bother displaying their dicks, while the garotos who are not quite built like physique models or bodybuilders are more inclined to show their dicks under the towels. At Lagoa and at 117, I have seen a few garotos who may walk around in street clothes, but those are usually the ones who have gone to the sauna to have a preplanned client meeting. They usually would not do this to attract new clients. There are two garotos I know who do this, and they don't always do it -- only when they know they can. But yes, these two garotos are considered "top of the line" -- in looks, build and in price.

TomCal, I think you meant to type, "From 2001 to 2009 I stayed in Copacabana exclusively." Otherwise, your first paragraph is a little confusing.

Again, there is another large sauna with garotos in São Paulo that might have had garotos that are more to your liking. It is called Fragata. If you were there for 3 nights, you should've checked it out and done some comparison shopping.

We get it, Scott. You like them young and barely legal. Did you try Fragata? That sauna probably has more of the type of garotos you are looking for -- and it's smaller, and the lights are also dimmer.

I have to agree with TomCal. It just seems to me that perhaps Scott is allowing his unsuccessful night at Lagoa dimly color his view of the quality of the garotos there. It's one thing to say that you didn't find what you were looking for (when you may be primarily interested in very young, barely-legal-looking skinny twinks), or that the deals couldn't be consummated. However, it's a completely different thing to say that the guys there were disproportionately average, out of shape and not muscular -- when the sauna is notorious for having very handsome and muscular garotos. When you say the latter, you're asserting that the sauna is no longer supplying what it is famous for -- and that's a fairly serious charge.

. THOSE are common gay sex phrases? We must hang in very different circles. I think you'd be better off staying in the USA or parts of Europe. You might wind up in a really bad situation otherwise.

Scott, are you mostly into very young looking twinks? If so, Lagoa would not be the place for you. That sauna is a Mecca for masculine muscle studs. Also, it's not cool to hold the fact that Brazilians don't speak any English against them or the local business establishment. Brazilians speak Portuguese. Unless you want to come across as an "Ugly American", it should be your responsibility to try to speak the native tongue of Brazil when you are a guest in the country -- not vice versa.

The Olympic Village is in the Rio neighborhood of Barra Da Tijuca, a southwestern coastal area. It is about a 30-40-minute drive from Zona Sul, but it's still in the city of Rio. That's like saying that Brooklyn or Queens are not in New York City just because they aren't in Manhattan.

Marcelo Vidal is a gay tour guide who speaks perfect English and does all kinds of Rio tours, from sauna tours to favela tours to gay bar tours to standard fare like Sugarloaf and Corcovado. His is knowledgeable and helpful especially for first timers. He is often seen at the saunas with foreign tourists for which he is providing a tour. His email address is celovidal@hotmail.com

It's all a matter of tastes (which we all know, there's no accounting for). The men at Lagoa tend to be much more built, muscular and model-like. It arguably has the best built and most handsome men in all of South America, and the garotos and the clients know this is the reputation. The facility is also the biggest and the best. Therefore, the prices are reflective of "luxury, high-end" items. If you're not into men that are built like physique models or bodybuilder so, or guys that look like they came off the runway, and maybe a little attitude that comes with it, then Lagoa might not be for you (I have personally not experienced much of that -- it's definitely not worse than the attitude you'd get at a gay bar, rentboy ad or a gym from a musclehead in the USA). It probably ranks either 1 or 2 with Clube 117 in Rio as the best in regards to looks and builds of the garotos, but a better and larger facility than 117. So if you like 117 guys, you'll also like Lagoa. So, conversely, if you prefer "normal, regular guys off the street" who aren't underwear models or physique competitors, like the boys at Meio Mundo, you'd probably prefer Fragata. The facility at Fragata is also less high-end, although I think they have a better food menu selection than Lagoa. The prices for garotos at Fragata also tend to be a little lower than the premiums at Lagoa, although like with anything, there are exceptions.

Last year, on this very day, I was in São Paulo. Lagos was closed on Christmas Eve but Fragata was open -- I believe it opened on time but closed early. My flight was a redeye that left out of GRU at around 11 pm that night, so I did Fragata, which had a few garotos and even fewer clients. I don't recall any shops or restaurants in the area of Pinheiros even being open at all. It was a quiet day, especially for São Paulo standards. However, traveling on Christmas Eve out of GRU was very easy and relaxed.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt. It might be valuable to read the great insight that TomCal provides here: http://www.boytoy.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23290-2015-porto-alegre-and-rio/page-7#entry134945 There might not be money directly exchanging hands like a garoto in a sauna or a rentboy ad, but it's still about gifts, dinners, favors, economics and security.

I'd be very interested in knowing why the hustler bars and restaurants in Rio have all gone away. Have the politics of the city shifted to the right (this is what closed down all the great hustler and stripper bars in New York City -- when Giuliani came into office)? Was it purely economic? Was it a cultural shift? Or are hustler bars just a thing of the past? They are almost nonexistent now in the USA. There still seems to be one in São Paulo and one in Santo Domingo, DR, both seemingly thriving with patrons.

I started out in the "street scene" like you, so we may be somewhat kindred spirits, MsGuy. Also, I tend to cringe at colonialist attitudes of proprietorship or superiority, particularly when it comes to people of color and/or socioeconomically disadvantaged people. The Eurocentric and/or quintessential "Ugly American" traveler is a behavior model I constantly must battle and try to chip away, little by little with every trip. For example, I don't know if it was on this message board or on another one, but I recall one very presumptuous poster saying that he would "treat the sauna boys to a good meal at a nice restaurant" instead of tipping them nicely after a hot session... what, because going to a trendy or nice restaurant and keeping you company instead of giving them the money and the free time to choose what they wanted to do with it surely suits the garoto's needs FAR more than it could ever suit the client's purposes, right? Oy vey.

One step forward, two steps back! Sorry to ruin my saintly image for you, MsGuy! :-)

A peculiar comment coming from the same poster who initiated this conversation in this thread with the following remark:

It's a balance, but it need not cause any grief or headaches. I think clients should pay what they feel comfortable paying without feeling either ripped off or taking advantage of someone in a compromised situation. If someone puffs their chest out because they can pay 80 reais when another might pay 150, and they think that makes them somehow more attractive, desirable or smart, then that client is just fooling himself. Conversely, paying a garoto 200 reais just to show him that you have more dough than other clients may not necessarily be the sharpest tactic either, because the difference it makes in the quality and quantity of time spent could be negligible. Ultimately, spend what you feel most comfortable, spend what makes you happy and what you can afford. It all evens out in the end. When I am not traveling alone, my travel buddies include some guys on the high-end of big-spender scales (investment bankers, lawyers, surgeons, software engineers, TV producers, screenwriters) all the way to fixed-income retirees, public school teachers, and always broke model/actor/waiter/personal trainers. Everyone's spend and budget varies, but no one ever leaves the sauna or Brazil without a huge smile on their face. The difference between 80 reais ($20 USD) and 150 reais ($38 USD), to me, is very insignificant when I am vacationing, not like if I were investing in commercial real estate by dollar per square foot or short-selling shares on NASDAQ. And I know the difference can mean a lot for the receiver, a lot more than it could for me. However, I fully understand the need for others to be more concerned about the price differences and to make sure that their entertainment / pleasure dollar stretches.

I'm not a huge fan of LeBoy but on one of my recent trips with male and female friends, we went there as it was one place we could all go to enjoy ourselves. When we were leaving the club and hailing a taxi, this really fine, built young man at the corner waved at me and of course, I went over to chat. He immediately said, "sexo?", so I figured he was hustling. I was with a group of friends, male and female, but if I were alone (or even with just one other whorish male friend), I would've went for it! This was in October 2013, on a weekend night around 2-3 am. I haven't been back to LeBoy since even though I've done Rio several times since then, but I'd imagine the street corner action around LeBoy is still about the same.

So, you're special? That's your experience and perhaps even just your perception. I am reporting what I have personally witnessed and what I've been told by sauna workers, strippers and various, sundry escorts / hustlers about my very overweight friend, who is literally more than twice my size (I am 6'2 and weigh around 185). I don't know how big you are, but in any book, my friend is considered obese (even though he is working on it, for his own health). Another Brazil story: a group of us (4), including my very big friend, were going to a party in Salvador and had a driver. The driver refused to pick him up because he was "muito grande" and he was afraid the car's axel would break (whether that is an unreasonable concern is beside the point). He had to get another cab willing to take him, which was his responsibility since we already had a driver. The social and business attitudes about the obese are very different in other cultures from how they are in the States. Back to sauna workers, strippers and escorts: another contributing factor to my big friend's prices are his demands versus his size. He doesn't just want the boy to lie there, he requires them to do more work. This probably greatly contributes to their asking price, as it's a lot more work for them to work around a guy with that much weight on him. BTW, this same friend doesn't complain about whatever price he does pay in Brazil because he knows the quality and price is still FAR better than he could dream of getting otherwise. I think most of us, no matter what our weight or looks may be, feel the same way about Brazil.

One of my friends that I sometimes travel with is a great guy but he is very overweight. He only slightly stands out in a crowd in the USA, where obesity is the new normal, but the several times that we travel together to places like Brazil, it's a problem. He gets charged more at the saunas and more for massages, because as the boys have told me, "he's twice as large and twice the work". Actually, come to think of it, he gets charged more by strippers for lap dances in the USA as well, for the same reason. That being said, as mvan1 has eloquently stated, the boys do talk about clients. If the word gets out that a client will pay more (or overpay), the other boys will soon find out, and the price for that client goes up. Similarly, if a client becomes too much work, or is overbearing, or is very easy and relaxed and not too demanding, that word gets around too. The clients you may notice that are holding court and seem to have a harem of garotos attending to their needs, or a revolving door of garotos, tend to fall into the latter category.

Yes. Some people also need to stop applying Eurocentric / Americanized notions of sexuality and romantic relationships to everything. In other parts of the globe, men can have sex with other men -- even passionately -- and not consider themselves gay or even bisexual. If you're constantly seeking to imitate what's sold in certain modern-day cultures as valid love, romance and relationships, then you might miss out on Some great interpersonal relationships and experiences with other men (and women) in different parts of the planet.