Londoner

No it doesn't. Thirty minutes or so. That's enough time for a shower!

I have a weakness for historical reviews of the scene and so thanks PeterRS. I still have Michael Notcutt's "Thai Scene", my gay Lonely Planet on my first visit in the mid-nineties. And yes, the Rome story is well-covered there. Xtreme was also an interesting venue. It deserved better audiences/clients because the dance group worked so damn hard. I compared it with the less-talented but more popular Throb in Pattaya; the latter had a lot of humour while Xtreme's choreography was rather too intricate for me. I regretted its passing nevertheless. Boy69's mention of Rome in 1998 interests me....I thought it had closed by then. I'm sure it wasn't there on my first visit to Soi4 in the summer of '97. But memory plays tricks....

Smile.

Indeed they have....a four seater! Rarely-used. We saw it in action a few weeks ago, the first time we'd seen it move. But you're right; it's there!

I've always found a good fantasy to be the safest, easiest and cheapest answer to such problems.

Thanks in particular for the photos...you chose wisely. I'm probably something of a bore about Agate but we love that place. The rooms are smaller than we'd like but well appointed -the lack of a comfortable chair seems to be de rigueur even in more expensive hotels nowadays- but the staff....so friendly and helpful. As for Tarntawan, I cannot pretend to be objective but I've stayed there on about sixty occasions- about forty as a couple- and find its location unbeatable. including it's lack of noise from Surawong. With prices generally going-up, these hotels remain excellent value.

I've just been re-reading Michael Burchall's book about the founding of Boyztown back in the 1980s. One of the issues to which he often returns is the co-operation between the bar-owners, the friendships, the mutual support, and how it enabled the soi and its scene to thrive. When we were in Ambiance and a particular bar was holding all-night street parties that attracted few people but inconvenienced both guests in the hotel and other people who wanted to chat with friends and possible offs, I was told by the then owners that it was made clear that such parties weren't good for their business. But to no avail. in other words, there was competition rather than co-operation. In the days of Jim Lumsden and Kevin Quill- and previously those of Michael Burchall- the owners met and discussed BT as an entity. Out of such meetings, the "Boyztown" signs (still there) were purchased, street lighting and parking was discussed and the Gay Pride festivals were established. What came later-every bar for itself- just didn't work and contributed to the soi's demise.

I maintain that three noisy bars in Boyztown contributed enormously to its sad demise by the effect that they had on the hotels. It's something that I shall never forgive; driven away from our favourite location and favourite hotel by the selfishness of those bars, which weren't even necessarily catering for the gay community. I hope that JC doesn't go the same way. We love Agate but the JC isn't, and never will be, anything but a shadow of Boyztown in its vibrant prime. To ensure that we are not disturbed at night, we always stipulate that the room faces the swimming pools. And we've never been disturbed. However, we're not bar-goers and so I cannot comment on what's happening at the bars themselves....though I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be happy if music curtailed conversation, as it used to sometimes in Boyztown. Bars should be for the customers, not the staff.

They didn't realise; simple as that. Agate's prices are good and it's relatively close to the beach where they spend their time, not in the bars. In the evenings the more affluent ones decamp to the malls. I have no idea where the Russian families who shared Agate with us went. Come to think of it, if they turn left on leaving the hotel down that little passage that leads to the main road, they could even miss Soda et al. That only leaves the two handsome guys enjoying breakfast to remind them of what they're missing! Ok, one handsome guy.

It was certainly quiet in March/April. I'd usually take a walk around the area at 2200 and it was exactly as others have said. However, on a more positive note, the Dick's Café Soi was lively, as was its corner with the Agate soi. The new-and cheap- restaurants/stands have improved the area noticeably. There are too many beer bars offering more or less the same product. Some were invariably empty of customers when at 2200. The customer base is exactly the same as it was when I arrived in Boyztown in 1995; predominantly elderly. And responding to Olddaddy's question, definitely not Asian. I'd add another issue pertinent to the JC; those who stay in Pattaya have an uncomfortable journey to reach it. We do the opposite journey, preferring to eat in Pattaya itself and we have found the bus trip infuriating since before Covd, owing to roadworks. Using taxis doesn't help. Not that Boyztown seems to have benefitted. I've just received an email from an old friend who works there telling me that it also is deserted. By the way, the Agate clientele has changed since it re-opened. Sometimes we're the only gay couple at breakfast, the other guests being in family groups. Many of them Russian.

The way things are going in some states, it'll soon be sixty. If at all.

Yes, the carpet - with its inimitable smell- was replaced by the ubiquitous flooring that graces just about every hotel in Thailand. The plumbing was improved, too. We stayed there overnight a few weeks ago. We still like it after many years of patronage and the prices offered are remarkably good.

What happened to Soi 4's Welcome Bar?

I know that some guys have a special interest in that sort of cruising - "cottaging" we call it here in the UK- but why would you want to? With the apps full of willing guys of all ages, sizes and preferences making themselves available, surely a bed in a hotel , with a shower before and after, as well as privacy and a locked door, is infinitely preferable? You should also remember that your activity may lead to public humiliation and even police trouble.

In the Good Old Days, Royal Garden was a good place, particularly around the designer clothes shops. I wonder why that was? And It was the only place in my life where I was actually approached in a toilet! Nowadays, I'm never on my own in any of the malls but I must admit I don't see any likely lads. And yes, I'd still notice.

I don't know. What I do know is that Dreamboys, Pattaya, circa 2005, was the meeting-place for a number of guys who established successful LTRs. Previously, I said I had met three but we met another couple, an American ex-pat living in Jomtien and his ex-Dreamboys dancer only last month. I was also given the names of others from posts in Facebook etc. As for "love", I wouldn't presume to be able to offer an answer but would point -out that, for centuries, traditional , straight marriages have been made for many different reasons, not all of which conform with romantic notions of love.

Of course, some falang visitors are easily seduced by their first encounters with beautiful Thai guys; I certainly was. And I've no doubt that some, overwhelmed and desperate for a partner, speak too soon of "love." Nevertheless, I'd suggest that most of us who are now happily in such relationships don't come into this category. It's probable that more, like me, were old hands at the game before meeting the right guy. And that the Thais, similarly, were not straight off an Isaan farm but had some experience of that "game." Genuine relationships are less likely to develop after a night or two of unbridled passion than over a period of time. I can understand why some are cynical. There are tourists who have been taken for a ride and have ended -up disappointed. Perhaps many. Equally, there are Thais whose falang boyfriends have been only too happy to find a younger guy when it suits them, destroying their hopes for a secure future . But I stand by my original post....and I'm echoing another forum member when I say this; a genuine relationship, despite difference in age, culture , religion and race can endure and flourish over decades, and prove to be (and here I quote) one of the best things that have happened in that person's life.

Yes. And I've also met three more in Pattaya with their LTRs, friends of P from his performing days. Two from the US, one from the UK. We may be a minority but we're real!

Undoubtedly true...and I know a number of falang men who met the loves of their lives in Thailand and thank God everyday for the blessings that followed. Some of them are members of this forum.

The JC guys use the Agate passage way to shop in the 7/11 across the road. Their presence, along with a handsome guy on the till, always cheers me.

The first time! How I envy you.....and how that August night in 1996 stays in my mind, even today.

A huge relief for a Certain Person who suffered from711 deprivation to a painful degree last month when we were at Tarntawan. And for me....well, there's inevitably a cute guy working the till to provide eye-candy. I'm told that, at least in the provinces, you can buy or order almost anything in a 711......well, why not a massage?

You could well be right but I can't remember an example off the top of my head. I suspect that you are spot-on when it comes to the cheapest options. I have noted that Agoda prices can change by the day, even the hour, in some instances.

The advantage of Agoda is that you can cancel without losing money. I've never tried this , but it may be that, faced with PeterRS's situation, you could probably do so and rebook at the cheaper price. To be honest, I wouldn't....Agoda's prices are usually good enough for us. However, if there is a hotel at which you are " face"- a regular- a direct booking may well be the better option. I have to admit that I envy those who don't book well in advance, as I always do. I'm a natural pessimist! Perhaps rightly so; our hotel-booked well in advance- was full when we arrived a few weeks ago. Anticipation and then recollection of a trip to Thailand is an important part of my enjoyment, and any insecurities about flights and bookings would disrupt the anticipation.

It may be that I have become sentimental in my old age and find myself much more comfortable with the "old" Thai culture. Or perhaps it is because, in 1997, I received a bucket of iced-water in my face while traveling on the Jomtien bus traveling at 30mph and have avoided Songkran ever since. Similarly, the traditional practice of making- not buying- kratongs, which I know took a lot of time and effort, appealed to be more than dangerous fireworks on Pattaya beach. But I suppose that's age too.