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The following appears in the BANGKOK POST: _____ Pub Operated Illegally Owner, Others Facing Charges of Flouting Law By: MANOP THIP-OSOD and APIRADEE TREERUTKUARKUL Owner Wisuk Setsawat and others responsible for the Santika pub, which caught fire on Thursday causing the loss of 59 lives, will face legal action for admitting underage revelers, letting its insurance lapse and not having an operating license. Deputy national police chief Pol Gen Jongrak Chuthanont said the owner of Santika on Ekamai road applied for an operating licence in 2004, but the request was rejected because construction was unfinished at the time. The owner then asked the Administrative Court to temporarily approve the operation, which it did. Deputy city clerk Wanwilai Phromlakhano said the pub building received a construction permit when it was built in 2003. However, approval of the operating licence rested with police, who were in dispute with the owner of the building. Ms Wanwilai did not elaborate. Pol Maj-Gen Chokechai Deeprasertwit, commander of the Metropolitan Police Bureau's Division 5, said Santika was not insured. Its insurance coverage expired four months ago and was not extended as the pub lease contract was about to expire. As the insurance had expired, police have ruled out the possibility of arson. However, experts have yet to conclude whether the fire started by accident, Pol Maj-Gen Chokechai said. Police were waiting for Santika pub owner Wisuk Setsawat to show up for questioning. Pol Maj-Gen Chokechai said he did not know when Mr Wisuk would turn up and added that the pub owner suffered a respiratory problem in the fire. Mr Wisuk was hospitalised but police said his whereabouts were not immediately known.Police will call Chris Pongpithaya, the owner of the pub building, and Suriya Ritrabue, the pub manager, for interrogation instead. Worapot Inthulak, chief of the Watthana district office, said an early investigation attributed the fire to fireworks set off inside the building during the Santika's farewell party that night. He said the fireworks set ablaze materials inside the building. The fire killed 59 people and injured at least 243. Twenty-one bodies, 14 of which had been taken to Chulalongkorn hospital, still could not be identified. Nantana Sitthisak, head of Chulalongkorn hospital's forensics department, said six of the 14 bodies were burned beyond recognition. An autopsy report shows all were Asian women. Another two days to a week would be needed to complete the body identification process, she said. A body identification centre has been set up at the Thong Lor police station. Pol Lt-Gen Danai Wongthai, chief of the Police Forensic Science Department, said identification would have to rely on DNA tests. Some of the dead's relatives filed complaints yesterday. Yai Waythita from Pattani said her younger brother who died in the Santika fire always carried his ID card and 10,000 baht in cash with him, but both were missing. Patthida Phosri, who lost her husband Arthithep, said she had first seen the body of her husband wearing a gold necklace weighing five-baht and two gold-framed amulets, but the valuables later disappeared. Another Bangkok bar caught fire early yesterday, but there were no casualties. The four-storey Rawhide bar on Soi Cowboy off Sukhumvit Soi 23 caught fire after hours. A faulty electric connection to decorations on a Christmas tree was blamed. The mezzanine floor and ceiling tiles on the first floor were damaged but no one was injured because the fire happened after the pub had closed. Like the Santika, the Rawhide bar had been full of customers on New Year's Eve, but was very quiet in the early hours of yesterday.

And we wonder about Thai logic. I wonder if the Vikings would have approved of this legislation. I wonder how the goddess Freya would have felt about it. It just amazes me that here we are, now in 2009, and there are still modern western countries that want to legislate what consenting adults can do sexually in the privacy of their bedrooms. It's frustrating when these sanctimonious pseudo-moralists decide the rest of the world has to do their bidding, even when it comes to sex between consenting adults. Quisling would have loved this one. Well, get ready for a good laugh. You know that sooner or later one of the people behind such legislation is going to get caught with his own pants down. In the joke above, I wouldn't be surprised if such a scenario had a slightly different punchline: Defendant: "No, your honour. I gave him money so his poor family could buy a water buffalo. He thanked me by giving me a massage." Judge: "Case dismissed!" Defendant: "By the way, your honor, he did ask me to give you his regards and said he looks forward to seeing you again."

Why not? Some of us are Thailand residents and can produce all kinds of documentation to prove it, such as long-term visas, proof of address, bills in our name received by post, residence certificate, rental contracts, Thai driving license, etc. I'm a Thailand resident and I have all the above documentation, and more. I'd like to see someone tell me all about how I'm not a Thailand resident. Some people, especially the ones who have no clue what they're talking about, but love to try to pass themselves off as someone who does, try to convince everyone else that you're going to be treated unfairly almost automatically because you're a farang. Especially, if you are driving and are involved in an accident with a Thai driver, then it's automatically your fault. That is simply not true. While it does happen once in a while, my experience has been that in most cases I am treated quite fairly, often with better treatment than the average Thai would receive. I've never been treated any worse than a Thai would expect. Automatically your fault in case of an accident? Not true. I've been involved in minor accidents more than once. Each time the police determined that the Thai driver was at fault, not me. Highway police stopping and fining drivers because they are farang? Also not true. Yes, I've been stopped and shaken down. They have also stopped other cars as well, usually half a dozen or more. The drivers are Thai. They get fined too. I have also been stopped, had my papers checked, and sent on my merry way without incident. I do feel I have been treated unfairly sometimes. I was treated even more unfairly and a lot more often in the USA.

The following appears in the PATTAYA DAILY NEWS: _____ NEW LAW CRIMINALISES NORWEGIANS BUYING SEX IN PATTAYA A Norwegian law which came into effect 1st January 2009 makes it a crime for Norwegians to buy, but not to sell, sex in Norway and abroad. The implications for Norwegian citizens engaging in such nefarious activities in Pattaya are still unclear. The main target for the legislation is the streets of Norway’s capital, Oslo, where the Norwegian authorities say they want to stamp out prostitution by targeting clients rather than prostitutes. Norwegian citizens caught paying for prostitutes at home or abroad could face a hefty fine or a six-month prison sentence. The Norwegian Minister Of Justice, Knut Storberget, has stated that all Norwegian sex clients should now be wary and has made it clear that the law also applies to Norwegians purchasing sexual favours outside of the country. It will be difficult to prosecute, he said, but not impossible. The Norwegian authorities have managed to punish pedophiles who have paid to have sex with children in Thailand and will be able to prosecute “normal” sex clients in the same way, he added. On the evening of the 1st January PDN decided to gauge the reaction to the new law among Norwegian visitors in Pattaya. I chose Kåre’s Party Bar on Pattaya’s second road, a beer bar popular among Norwegian tourists who make up 90% of the bar’s clientele. I asked Terje, the co-owner of the bar, if there had been any reaction from his customers to the new law, having already ascertained that his bar was not in the business of procuring women for sexual services. He said the law had long been a popular theme of discussion but no-one took it seriously. He suggested Norwegian authorities should put their own house in order before persecuting its citizens abroad. He also wondered how the authorities planned to enforce the law in Thailand. Would Norway be sending undercover agents to gather evidence? Would the Thai Police cooperate? The law also specifically defines the sexual activities it covers. These include payment for sexual intercourse, physical contact between exposed genitalia, one or two-way masturbation or touching someone’s private parts or breasts. “Payment” is defined as the exchange of money, or payment in kind, including the giving of flowers and gifts. Whilst talking to Terje he asked several of his customers, jokingly : ”Have you broken the law today?” to which some responded with a look of bewilderment. As a parting comment I suggested he print the question on t-shirts and make a fortune selling them in his bar. To which he gave me a wry smile, but unfortunately no offer of a commission…. "Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?" - George Carlin

I'm glad they all had such a good laugh at your expense. Really funny . . . watching a frightened man being attacked by a vicious dog. Too bad the dog wasn't able to get you and start tearing you apart. Then they all could have gone into hysterics. I suppose if it was a Chihuahua going after you like that, I would have thought it was funny, but a large dog that meant business . . . I fail to see the funny part.

I don't see any reason to be opposed to it. To me, it's just like the Super Bowl. If there is a party somewhere and it's something that interests you, then go. If it isn't, then why would anyone object to it? Simply don't go. What's the problem?

Didn't the driver have anything to say about why he didn't help you? Unless he was blind, he had to have realized what was going on. You're lucky. I'll bet one of the things nobody on the trip anticipated was the possibility of being attacked by a crazed dog.

I don't know for sure, but my guess is that the police are not directly involved at all until after sex takes place. This is only a guess on my part, so don't take this as fact, but I believe a boy like this allows himself to be picked up by the farang, has sex with him somewhere, and then either of two scenarios take place: Either the boy demands more money from the farang and threatens to go to the police if he doesn't get it, or he takes the "tip" money the farang gives him, thanks the farang, and then goes to the police because he gets more money as a paid informant. I could be way off base here, but to me it makes perfect sense from the boy's point of view. Here he is, a street urchin, likely ridden with ya-ba, and street-smart enough to seduce an unsuspecting farang who is expecting to have sex with the boy, pay him the usual "tip" amount, and that's the end of it. It seems that the average farang prefers to pay as little as possible and the boy knows that if he turns in the farang, he gets paid informant money. Nothing happens to him at all. He's right back out in the streets seeking his next victim. Meanwhile, he just destroyed the farang's life and couldn't care less. Right or wrong, that's the scenario I envision. For whatever reason, it is extremely rare for a farang to end up arrested when he takes a boy from a bar, even when the boy is under-age. But it's a different story when picking up an under-age street urchin. Just why it works this way goes beyond me, but that seems to be the case. To my mind, given the possible consequences, if you're out there knowingly taking under-age boys for sex, then the cheese slipped off your cracker a long time ago . . . "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves . . ." - William Shakespeare

One question: If she goes any time soon, will the movie about her life star Maggie Smith or Judi Dench?

It came to him in a dream. He might have gotten it from the following, but his dreams are more reliable: http://www.pattayadailynews.com/shownews.p...NEWS=0000008143

GaySacGuy is much more qualified than any of us to answer those kinds of questions, but I've heard that more people die in fires because of smoke and toxic fume inhalation than from being burned. You can die from smoke inhalation, panic stampedes, being burnt alive, or other causes, but none would be a pleasant way to go, that's for sure.

The following appears in THE NATION: _____ Survivors Say Fireworks Lit on Stage By The Nation Survivors of the tragic Santika Pub fire recounted that they saw fireworks lit on the stage before the blaze started, leading to a stampede. A patron, who identified herself as Fah, said she and two friends arrived at the Santika Pub at 10 pm and by the time it was already packed with customers. She said it might be his luck that the pub was nearly full with about 500 customers, causing him and friends to be stand near the exit. The customers were packed inside for the farewell party of the pub, in an event titled "New Year Goodbye Santika" she said. She saw many customers on the second floor of the pub. Fah recounted that he saw a group of singers went up on the stage at nearly 1 am and he saw fireworks being lit up to create some effects. "I believe the fireworks caught fire on the ceiling and spread quickly," Fah said. "At first, I thought it was an effect, which looked like real thing. Then, someone shouted "fire, fire" and panic broke out and people ran for their life. "It's my luck that I and friends were standing near the exit so we could quickly leave and survive." Pongsiri Wongseng, 28, said he and his sister joined the farewell and countdown party after hearing that the pub would cease operation after the party. He said he, his girlfriend and his sisters as well as her friends arrived at the pub in a group of seven and they gather for music in front of the stage. Pongsiri said he saw fire shot up on the stage, causing fire at foam which was used as props on the ceiling. He said the fire spread very fast and his girlfriend shouted to others that fire broke out, leading to turmoil. "Everybody ran outside and the situation was very chaotic," he said. "I jump-kicked at the glass in front of the pub. I made small hole and I don't know how could I get through the hole because I a big guy." He said he later worried about his girlfriend and sister, who were later rescued by rescue workers. He said his girlfriend suffered from a burn on her chest and hip and fainted out and rushed to the Camillian Hospital. His sister also suffered from minor burns.

Gentlemen, let us not forget that HIV is not the only sexually transmitted disease.

If I remember correctly, only a few years ago a similar incident took place in a club in the USA. There were not enough adequate exits and some sort of pyrotechnic display went wrong, setting the club ablaze and resulting in a lot of people dead. Apparently that is what happened in Bangkok. It seems like every year we read about a similar incident in which a fire breaks out in a crowded club and scores of people are trapped inside. Sometimes we even read that fire exits existed, but were blocked or locked. After all, let's risk the lives of all these people in our eagerness to make sure nobody can sneak in for free . . . I think part of the problem is that people do become wary of this sort of possibility when these incidents occur, but after a while people just stop thinking about it, at least until the next incident.

It came close to happening right here in Pattaya. A fire broke out at the Central Festival (Big-C shopping center) in North Pattaya. Fortunately, no one was hurt. Rather than reprint the story, I am providing the link. There are plenty of photos: http://www.pattayadailynews.com/shownews.p...NEWS=0000008140 The most frightening part of the story, in my opinion, is the part that mentions there is no fire alarm system in the shopping center.

Here is the BANGKOK POST report: Bangkok Post photo _____ Dozens Die in Night Club Fire Published: 1/01/2009 at 04:35 AM Fire broke out in a night club in Thong Lo during New Year's celebrations, and police said nearly 60 people were confirmed dead. The fire at the Santika Club in Soi Ekamai occurred shortly after the joyous midnight countdown, according to Pol Lt Gen Viboon Bangthamai, deputy metropolitan police commander. Thong Lo district police commander Pol Col Suphin Sapphuang said 59 people had been confirmed dead - 53 at the scene and six who succumbed later in hospital. Most of the fatality victims were Thai, but foreigners have been identified from Australia, the Netherlands, Nepal and Japan. The popular club consistently attracts a mixed crowd of Thais and visitors. At least 184 people were injured, according to emergency services at the scene, and had been rushed to 14 hospitals around Bangkok with various injuries including burns and smoke inhalation. Fireworks lit for the New Year celebration probably torched the facility’s curtain near the roof, he said. Pol Lt Col Prawit Kantwol, one of the first officers on the scene, agreed. "It appears that the fire started from the area of the stage where a band was playing. There were some pyrotechnics and it appears that they started the blaze," he said. "Most of the victims died from suffocation but some were also killed in a stampede when people were trying to get out." The two-storey club was completely gutted by the fire, with the front of the building blackened and partially collapsed. Firefighters brought the blaze under control at about 2 a.m. and retrieved most of the bodies, he said. Fifty-three people were found dead in the club and two died at hospitals Deaths apparently came from direct burns from the flames, from smoke inhalation and from injuries during the stampede to escape from the engulfing fire. Most of the bodies were found in the club's basement. Police said the hi-so club had only one door for entry and exit. Some victims were trapped in the basement of the club, which was accessed via a narrow stairwell. The roof of the building had also collapsed during the blaze. Rescue workers placed the bodies in white shrouds, in rows in the club's parking lot for possible identification and removal.

The easiest way to get there is to stand in front of the Friendship Market. Cross the street and follow the soi into the "square." It can be a little difficult to find the first time, but it's there . . .

I won't be anywhere near Sunee Plaza, that's for sure. When those boys start setting off their firecrackers it's like being in downtown Baghdad during a bombing raid. The tall buildings reverberate the noise and makes it even worse. That's not for me. A close friend lives in a high rise condo. He's having a small party for just a few friends. We're going to have our party and have a panoramic view of all the fireworks displays.

I agree. I see no particular reason to for you to reveal anything the media has not already revealed unless your friend requests that you reveal anything more. I think most of us understand that all you were trying to do was warn us about this sort of possibility. There is no need for you to respond to requests for information or comments unless you wish to.

There are all kinds of possible scenarios, including the one you portray. If what you say is what actually took place, then that will be the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. One aspect of the story that remains on my "I Don't Get It" list is that apparently this man suspected this was coming. I can't help but wonder why he didn't bolt while the getting was good. Unless he was sure he could prove he was the victim of a set-up, why did he stick around, just waiting to be arrested? I would have thought he would have sought out a good Thai attorney long before now, would also have consulted an attorney in the USA, and would have left rather than waiting for the axe to fall. Fake ID's are nothing new and that possibility ought to be taken into consideration any time a boy might appear to be under-age. Hindsight is 20-20, of course, but a 14 year old trying to pass himself off as an 18 year old would certainly turn on red lights for me.

I think that's absolutely right. Sting operation or not, if the man (or men) did not make certain about the boy's age, or knowingly took an under-age boy, then in my opinion he (they) has no one to blame except for the person he sees when he looks in a mirror.

Thank you RichLB. This is quite important information for people living in Thailand on the retirement visa and may not have been aware of this. I'll leave this post pinned for a while.

I hope, for the gentleman's sake, that it will turn out that he is completely innocent and the police arrested the wrong man. If he is the victim of some sort of set-up, then I hope it can somehow be proved that he could not possibly have known the boy's actual age, although it would be a little difficult to convince me that he couldn't figure out that someone age 14 hasn't reached age 18, no matter what kind of documentation the boy may have produced. Lester1's scenario makes sense to me, although none of us really know the whole story. Whether the media will ever publish any kind of follow-up to this is anybody's guess. I also think it's logical to guess that the man referred to in Pattayamale's "Urgent" thread is the same man in this story, but I have no way to know that. You know why I don't know? Because Pattayamale didn't tell us. That's why I don't know. In other words, now that the story is out, the rest is sheer speculation on our part unless and until more details come out. Meanwhile, the other day I jumped all over Slackersam's speculation on another arrest thread. However, if it turns out that this person really is the victim of a similar set-up, then I'm going to have to eat my words and offer Slackersam a public apology

I think that's the most important point in your entire post. Whatever happened to your friend, obviously you are quite upset about it. I don't know what it is. Those who engage in sex with under-age boys have to know by now that the odds of getting caught keep getting greater and greater. Why do it? What is it that compels these people to disregard such serious personal risk for the sake of a satisfying cum? People say all the time the police ought to clean up the streets of these under-age boys. They ought to shut down the bars hiring under-age boys. Whatever they ought to do, nothing changes the fact that the ultimate responsibility for making certain the boy is at least 18 rests with you. You're the one who's going to be arrested.

I'll let you folks do the debating about whether sex with a 14 year old fits the strict definition of a pedophile or whether posting this story is fair. This story is a perfect example of the fact that not all these arrests require being caught in the act. If the police are able to gather sufficient evidence, then the arrest can come at any time. I can't help but wonder if this man was a victim of a scam, considering the length of time between the date of the arrest warrant and the date of the actual arrest. Some under-age boys out there will go with a farang, get their tip, and then inform on the farang for even more money from the police if an arrest results. Even if this man was a victim of such a scam, I have little sympathy for him. It's just another example of thinking with one's crotch instead of one's brain. If the allegation turns out to be true, then it would mean he knowingly risked sex with an under-age boy. No matter how it plays out, it's going to cost him a fortune. If he ends up deported, I think most of you know what's going to happen to him once he's back on USA soil. The following appears in PATTAYA ONE: see: http://www.pattayaone.net/news/2008/decemb...0_12_51_2.shtml for photos. _____ Immigration Police Arrest American Suspected of Conducting Lewd Acts with a 14 year old Boy Acting on an arrest warrant number 1195/2551 dated 6th June 2008, Police Captain Achib from Pattaya’s Immigration Office arrested Mr. Kent Meek aged 64 from USA at a house in the Jomtien Nivet Village. The warrant states that on 10th May, the suspect engaged in lewd acts with a 14 year old boy. It is alleged that Mr. Meek, met the boy in Soi Sunee Plaza which is an area notorious for underage sex workers. The boy was not working in a bar but was allegedly propositioned by the suspect in the street. Mr. Meek was taken to Pattaya Police Station where officers will take over the case which will be heard in court at a later date.