Gaybutton

Some may remember Dr. William Glasser, who in the 1970's was popular with his "Reality Therapy." One of his basic concepts was that people literally choose their feelings, especially when it comes to guilt feelings. I attended one of his lectures and I clearly remember him saying that guilt applies only if you have intentionally done something to harm someone else. Then you can feel guilty. But when it comes to other situations, especially situations you did not initiate, then there really is no reason for guilt to apply. Back in Florida, a very close friend was, and still is, a well known clinical psychologist. He told me that he gets more business because of guilt feelings than from all the other psychological problems people experience combined. His quote was, "Guilt is bullshit." He often talked about the difference between feeling sorry for someone and feeling guilt. His position was that feeling sorry for someone is ok, but it is not the same as guilt. He said that as soon as people let feeling sorry turn into feeling guilty, now you have placed yourself in the position of taking responsibility. I think a good example of what he meant applies in Thailand when a boy asks you for help paying for his room. "I not have money for pay room." If you feel sorry for him, that's one thing. But if you refuse his plea for help and he really does lose his room, then you might feel that it was somehow your fault because you could have helped him, but didn't. That's when guilt feelings really get to many people and it can be a very difficult feeling to reconcile. Then, the next time a boy asks for help, now you fork over not because you truly wanted to, but mainly to avoid going through the guilt feelings again. It can be very difficult for many to deal with that. You don't have anything to feel guilty about because you did not create his problems or situation. You have to remember that you are not the one responsible for his life. He is responsible for his own life.

That's definitely the truth! I think one of the mistakes that farang bar owners have made when trying to run a bar in Pattaya is they first opened the bar and only then did they start really finding out just what had gotten themselves into. I think another mistake was when farang would open a bar, but entrust a Thai guy, even experienced ones, to run it for them. It just doesn't work that way. The successful farang bar owners are the ones who truly knew what they were doing and made sure all bases were covered. And even then there were several eventual failures. In other words, I would not recommend getting into it unless you can afford to lose the whole kit and caboodle.

Now that you've explained it, yes, I see those as good ideas too.

That is true. As I mentioned on another thread, it does take more time and experience for many to learn what goes on here and how to deal with it. It's all a question of learning how to play the game. The boys have been playing it a long time. Their easiest targets, of course, are the newbies who have never played it. That's not to say they boys don't legitimately need all the money they can get, but often they're going to have to get it from someone else, especially if I feel that I've already done my share. Also, I think a factor is what the boy has or has not done to merit more from my wallet. I'm not an ATM and I'm not a charity and I'm not a benefactor. To me, if a boy wants money from me, then my first thought is what has he done to deserve it? "They make their money the old fashioned way. They earn it." - John Houseman, Smith-Barney commercial

Now let's see. What could that be? Perhaps a certain former President standing naked outdoors in Vermont in February?

Would you mind explaining that one? Why would a bar want to provide that kind of service? Better still, why would you want it? I can just hear the street touts now. "Have BOY, sexy BOY! Have new BOY! Have WAX! Welcome inside mister for WAX!" "Waiter, a gin and tonic and a wax job, please. While I'm at it, can I get my pubic hair streaked? Nothing fancy, just frost my bush. I think that can make me look very sexy."

I can't be sure whether Taylorsquare is pulling our legs for us or not, but he is bringing up an issue that many farang have experienced . . . the Thai boys making pleas for money. I think by now we all are well aware of the sick grandmother-dead water buffalo ploys, but I think it might be interesting to have a discussion here of some of the methods people have encountered that the boys use in attempts to squeeze money out of us and how we deal with it. I'll start by mentioning the "I no have money pay room" ploy. I get that one regularly toward the end of one month and the beginning of the next. The calls usually start coming in about 3 days before the end of the month and continue to about the 5th day of the next month. With cases in which I know the boy quite well and feel that he has a legitimate problem, I sometimes do give him the money. If I'm suspicious I tell him I'll give him the money, but only if I go with him to pay the bill. If he tries to give me reasons why I can't go with him (usually it's "If she see farang, it very expensive") then he gets nothing. With others, I follow the Nancy Reagan rule. I just say no. I've got one right now trying to hit me up because he wants to get plastic surgery on his face. It seems he doesn't like the bridge of his nose. I know he would really get the surgery if he can get the money, but not one baht of it will come from me. Besides, if anyone could use plastic surgery, I could use it myself much more than him. Taylorsquare seems to conjure up this "other people are looking" thing a little too often for me. Some kid comes up to him and tries to get 100 baht from him. And he gives it to him not because he wants to, but because he's worried about what other people will think if they are looking. I would guess that if anyone was really looking their thoughts were more inclined toward "What a fool" if Taylorsquare really gave the boy the money instead of telling the boy to get lost. A simple 'no' usually does the trick. Sometimes the boy will try to make you feel guilty. If it's a boy you only know from having taken him off once or twice, where does the feeling guilty part come in? You did already tip him, did you not? Sometimes the boy won't take no for an answer and he persists. I still just say no and go on about my business. It never takes them long to figure out that trying to pressure me into handing over money isn't going to work. Sometimes I do feel badly when I say no to a boy, but I also know that as soon as you give in, there will be no end to it. A little here and a little there, and before you know it, you're broke. Taylorsquare, if you were serious in your post, then instead of handing over money because people are looking, I suggest keeping your money and you start being the one looking at them. Let them be the ones handing over their own money if they disliked that you were refusing to hand over your own. If I had overheard the boy trying to get you to give money, yes I probably would have looked. But my looking would have been rooting for you to tell the boy that he can forget it. I would have admired that. But if I saw you give in and hand it over to him, my first thought would have been, "There goes another one suffering from the disease called Schmuckus Maximus." I do what I can if I feel it is appropriate for me or if it makes me feel good to do it, but sometimes I have to make it clear to these boys that I didn't work my butt off all my life to come over here and start giving it away.

Congratulations, Taylorsquare. You're quickly learning how to play the game. "Pretty soon I won't be able to tell you a thing." - Walter Huston, 'The Treasure of the Sierra Madre'

Throw ping pong balls at the boys? Why would you want to do that? I don't understand what you mean by dancer notes. What purpose does that serve? If you want to give tips, give cash.

Everyone has different techniques for getting rid of a pushy mama-san. Mine is usually to just tell him something such as you want to sit by yourself and look first, and if you want a boy to sit with you, you will let him know. Until then, vamoose! If you can't get him to leave you alone, then leave him alone. In other words, totally ignore him. For me, that's usually all it takes.

I agree with you. Some bar owners and mama-sans seem to think the mere presence of the boys is all it takes to run a successful bar. I've also wondered about the apparently narcissistic fascination with looking at themselves in the mirror when on the stage. It seems to be awfully difficult for many of these boys to catch on to the idea that if they want to be taken off, then they need to be seductive. Watching them chat with each other, oblivious to the customers, stand there doing the "one-knee shuffle," playing with their telephones, looking at everything except the customers, walking swiftly past customers to the back, then the front, then the back, then the front again as if they were actually doing something important, and behaving as if they would rather be anywhere except for where they are, is not my idea of being seductive. Only a couple nights ago I was in a go-go bar at which nearly all the boys were behaving as I described above. But one boy made eye contact, smiled at me, and acted flirtatious. In the looks department he was no different from the rest of them, but guess which boy I called over to sit with me.

I didn't catch the significance of that until your post. Yes, that is definitely interesting and I too have to wonder why after all the details in the post, that particular part was vague.

I wonder how much face they think they're saving by sitting on a vacant property that is generating no income. But that seems to be the case. They won't budge on prices. That's precisely what happened at Bruno's according to what I was told. Bruno's is a high quality restaurant in Pattaya. For years they were located in a building in north Pattaya, near the north Pattaya Big-C. The story I heard was after all those years, suddenly the owner wanted to jack up the rental price outrageously. Bruno's explained to him that it would be cheaper for them to build their own restaurant rather than pay that amount. The owner refused to budge and Bruno's did exactly that, built their own restaurant in Jomtien. From what I understand, that original building remained vacant for years. For all I know it might still be vacant.

I think Soi10Tom is right about quite a bit, but also wrong about some of what he says. The lady-boy bars don't seem to work in Boyztown and Sunee Plaza, But those are not the only lady-boy bars in Pattaya and quite a number of people are into the lady-boys. If you don't believe me, I suggest checking this web site. These bars are working just fine and have been established for years: http://www.pattayashemales.com/bars.htm Femme boy bars. I would agree with you if you are talking about bars that hire exclusively femme boys. That doesn't seem to work. The most popular bars feature a mix - as I said in another thread, something for everyone's taste. There is one other thing that you mentioned only in passing. Cleanliness. If it's anything I can't stand, it's a bar at which the restrooms are filthy, stink, provide no kind of soap or bathroom tissue, have a community towel that may have been washed once in 1957, and look like the last time they ever were clean was the day they were built. You also didn't say anything about reasonable prices.

Nobody can answer that. Obviously he believes it. Just as obviously I do not believe it. I don't know where his information came from. I don't know who the "informed sources" are. I have "informed sources" too and none of them have heard anything at all about this. I have to wonder why he heard about this, but nobody else did. I have to wonder why this is published in his newspaper, but nothing appears in any other English language publication. I believe there may be some sort of crackdown. Crackdowns are not unusual around here. Then, after a week or so the crackdowns always fizzle out. For me the bullshit part is not the fact of the story. I don't believe he just made it up. I believe he really did hear this from someone he sincerely considers credible. I believe the bullshit part is that anything significant will really happen. If these investigators are going to start closing down bars that have 'off,' then how hard would it be for the bars to cancel offs for a while until the crackdown blows over? If they do that, now they're not selling sex. If the authorities seriously want to catch bar owners breaking the law, why would they let anyone, especially a newsman, know in advance? None of this makes any sense to me. I've mentioned this before and I think it's appropriate to mention it again now. Some of the best advice I ever received came from a friend of mine back in Florida, a well known attorney. He said it very simply. "Don't worry until you have something to worry about." So far, one article by one person is not something to worry about. How many dozens of times have you seen the local gay community go into a panic because of news items, but then nothing significant ever actually happened? I've lost count. This latest one is something I'll believe if and when it happens. I don't think it ever will. I think the worst we'll see, if even that much, might be some headlines about two or three bars in Pattaya being forcibly closed. Then, as usual, whoever is seeking the publicity will have it and the problem will fade away . . . and that's if the problem ever actually arises in the first place.

Hmmmmm. That sounds kind of interesting. Maybe they're selling tickets . . .

For "legitimate" tourism you don't need to hire a guide. All the hotels have a tour desk with all kinds of different guided tours available, with English speaking tour guides. You can book all the tours you want that way. If you're looking for a gay tour guide, nothing could be simpler. Just get on Gay Romeo and start searching the Bangkok section. You'll find plenty of willing gay guys who speak very good English who would be delighted to take you everywhere and also see to it that you end up delighted too.

Maybe I'm missing something, but if some schmuck trying to make a name for himself is really serious about wanting to close all the bars, gay or straight, that have 'off,' then do you realize they would have to shut down virtually every single bar and karaoke in the entire city? Just about all of them. It would destroy the entire economy and tourist industry in Pattaya. Like I said, "bullshit!" They're going to arrest all the owners of bars at which sex is for sale? If that's going to be the case, then they're going to need to build a whole new wing at the Bangkok Hilton. With the amount of money involved and the number of businesses dependent on tourists who come to Pattaya for precisely the kind of frivolity they're talking about shutting down, do you really think they're going to let that happen? BULLSHIT!

Looking at their web site, this appears to be a traditional Thai massage without "happy ending" available. Is that correct?

Then I guess I must be blind. I meant what I said. I've never seen anything. Any time you want to give me a guided tour, just let me know.

I see. All Bangkok. Well, next time I'm in Bangkok if I happen to be near Chit Lom I'll check it out . . . if, of course, I need to take a chit . . . ___________ "Why do we say "take a shit" anyway? I don't take a shit. I leave it there. Look Dan, I left a shit." - George Carlin

Where, exactly, are these washrooms? In as many as I've been to (to pee, not to look for sex), I've never seen anybody in any of them doing anything differently from the same reason I was in there. So, where are these cruise washrooms?

I don't know. It was already night and I passed by rather quickly in a car. If a notice is on the door, I didn't see it. I take it, from your post, there is no notice.

"I feel so sorry for bisexuals. What a curse that must be. Can you imagine wanting to fuck everyone you meet?" - George Carlin

Whenever I see articles like this, the first word that comes to mind is "bullshit." In various forms, we've heard it all before . . . many, many times. If a crackdown occurs at all, does anyone truly believe it will last any longer than any others ever did? The article specifies gay bars. I suppose none of the girlie bars sell sex or have offs. In other words, if you lend any real credence to this, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. It ain't gonna happen, folks. Don't cancel your flight reservations.