Only in this forum....

[Gaybutton]

We will agree to disagree with the definition of a business

 

Will we?  

 

I stand by what I said and the way I said it, Yankee or not.  I think the way I said it is entirely appropriate.  You seem to want to turn this thread into an "about Gaybutton" topic.  It isn't about me.  It's about the maps.  Instead of worrying about my feedback or way I said it, how about posting your own feedback.

[TotallyOz]

Will we?  

 

I stand by what I said and the way I said it, Yankee or not.  I think the way I said it is entirely appropriate.  You seem to want to turn this thread into an "about Gaybutton" topic.  It isn't about me.  It's about the maps.  Instead of worrying about my feedback or way I said it, how about posting your own feedback.

 

Yes, I think we will.  I say your site is a business.  You said it ain't.  We disagree.   Isn't that what we both agree to?

 

My own feedback on the maps?  Really?  Do you really want that?  OK.  I'll tell you what I think about them.  I think maps are a great way to get around.  Just last year, I was traveling across the US and I used a Garmin.  It helped me get from point A to point B in a superb manner.  I find great value in maps.

[Guest]

"And we will not even agree to disagree........" ?

 

1 A famous $640billion market capitalisation company had some well publicised errors with it's mapping app.

2 An equally well known and more widely used $360 billion dollar company fails to keep business names and locations correct on it's Thai maps (even though this might just be the world's most popular mapping app).

However, both companies are pretty damn good at their best products.

 

Then we have a slightly smaller business which publishes dedicated Gay Thai maps as part of a gay guide.  The maps are probably one of the core products which attract people. That's the difference.

 

So they need to be right at the time of publication. Some of the business locations were never right. An on the ground check would find that.

 

However, expecting them to be constantly updated on a monthly basis is probably too much.  Some bars constantly change name.

 

I do hope other people have constructive feedback for the OP, possibly on other parts of the magazine.

[Gaybutton]

My own feedback on the maps

 

Aha!  Now I get it.  You're writing an article of your own.  Title - "How to Be Evasive" , , ,

 

Oh well, since I'm just one of those 'Damned Yankees," you already know I'm not going to post like a refined southern gentleman.

 

 

 

However, expecting them to be constantly updated on a monthly basis is probably too much.

 

Even I don't expect them to update the maps every month.  I wouldn't complain if they updated them quarterly or perhaps even semi annually.  Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for them to make certain the maps are accurate even once.  That hasn't happened.

 

As far as I can tell, Nicky's Gay Thailand always manages to have his maps correct.  Why can't Mr. Barnes?

 

I have no feedback about the rest of their magazine.  He didn't ask for that.  He asked only for feedback about the maps.

[williewillie]

Perchance, this issue would have been better directed to the out in Thailand website. The owner did request comments be

sent there but since he choose to ask for comments on this forum, he's getting what he asked for.

I think it would be interesting if Christian or gaybutton would revisit this thread in a few months and see if there's any

improvement.

Personally, I have little or no expectation of accuracity on any free bar handout and understand their

reason for existence is to get paid for advertising, have polls for best bar with bars they pump somehow winning,

and of course, the old hag drag queen giving advise to the lovelorn. Worth a glance when in the toilet and nothing

else to read

[Guest JamesBarnes]

Perchance, this issue would have been better directed to the out in Thailand website. The owner did request comments be

sent there but since he choose to ask for comments on this forum, he's getting what he asked for.

I think it would be interesting if Christian or gaybutton would revisit this thread in a few months and see if there's any

improvement.

Personally, I have little or no expectation of accuracity on any free bar handout and understand their

reason for existence is to get paid for advertising, have polls for best bar with bars they pump somehow winning,

and of course, the old hag drag queen giving advise to the lovelorn. Worth a glance when in the toilet and nothing

else to read

 

Dear williewillie,

 

I am pleased that you are taking an interest and always welcome brickbats along with the bouquets.

 

You will find that the map amendments suggested on this thread have already been made by our terrific webmaster- indeed, one of the factors in deciding to make our guide section online is that updates can be made instantly- in the printed magazine, we are confined by deadlines that mean a two month wait.

 

You refer to the Reader's Choice Awards going to bars that OUT iT 'are somehow pumping'. Forgive me if I correct you by pointing out that the award categories cover every type of business, not just bars, and that the majority of winners and runners up have never advertised with the magazine.

 

Please also note that the Darika column ended in December 2014.

 

Getting back on topic, as already mentioned, any additions or deletions for our maps/listings suggested here, will be actioned immediately.

 

Best wishes,

[Up2u]

Michael, when you opened this site years ago, it was a business, you accepted advertising and operated it as a business. Was it profitable, did you sell and profit?..... that is not the point. GB, pays for his site out of his own pocket and has no advertising to offset costs that I am aware of, so I would describe his site as a service to gay tourists and expats in Pattaya and Thailand and not a business.

Out, is a for profit business venture. It is a disservice to publish incorrect information or inaccurate maps. It looks like some of these maps were copied from Spartacus 1999(smiling), little effort to create or obviously maintain them. The onus and costs is on Out, as a business, to maintain them. There is nothing wrong with asking their customer base for pointing out inaccuracies but ultimately it is Out's responsibility. If they cannot provide good accurate maps then they should not be published.

[Bob]

Rather classy that James and Outwebmaster haven't responded in kind to the nasty manner in which GB has attempted, ad nauseum, to make his point. 

[Guest OutWebmaster]

Thanks to all who have posted comments on this topic. 
I think though, that one responder has pushed the original request in a direction that was not intended. 
I'd like to bring it back to where it was meant to be.

At Out in Thailand Online, we've posted interactive maps, using Google Maps. 
We haven't invented maps. These are not entirely new technologies. It's a well known system, used by millions of blogs. 
We are simply trying to help our readers get up-to-date information about Gay businesses in Thailand. 

However, as with any mapping system, it's never going to be completely accurate. 
While I will continually try to keep it up to date, it's a never ending task. 
Businesses come and go. And when they go, they won't take the time to tell us. 
We will rely on word of mouth from people who happen to know that that business closed. 
As businesses open, or change names, or move, or whatever....they won't likely contact us either. 
They have other things to concentrate on. 
So again, we welcome that information from those who know. 
I cannot walk every street in Thailand every day, and check on every business. 

When we ask for feedback, we are really hoping to hear from the businesses themselves.
If you owned a business that had a listing on our map, and the information was wrong, wouldn't you want that to be corrected?
That is the 'feedback' that I am seeking.

I will attempt to reach each business individually, but if they reach me first, is that bad?

 

Individual feedback is welcome, of course. 
However, we hope that the feedback is about how and where we can improve. 
Making blank statements like "the maps aren't accurate" doesn't help us improve them. 
How is it inaccurate? Which points are wrong? How wrong? Where?
I've compared a random collection of a couple dozen of our map points on other map websites like Nicky's and Gay Travel Asia. 
If you do the same, you'd see that the GPS points are the same. If we are inaccurate, they are too. 

 

Our maps will be updated whenever we get new information. That can happen several times per day.
It takes a couple minutes, not a couple months.
If you have information, you're welcome to share it.

If you just like to complain about things in general, then you're welcome to share that, too. 
We understand that these maps will not satisfy everyone. Or maybe just one in particular. 
But we will endeavour to improve them with the information we receive from the businesses involved. 

Thanks in advance, 
Out in Thailand Webmaster

[Gaybutton]

We are simply trying to help our readers get up-to-date information about Gay businesses in Thailand. 

However, as with any mapping system, it's never going to be completely accurate. 

 

There's a very simple way for you to resolve those problems.  Contact Nicky's and ask permission to copy his information and maps and use them for your own web site and magazine, attributing the credit to him.  His information is always accurate and up to date - and he doesn't seem to have any problem keeping it that way.

 

The good news is even I'm feeling that I'm posting about this 'ad nauseum.'  I've made my opinion clear. This will be my last post on this topic.

 

Yay!

[vinapu]

Something on the Internet is inaccurate?  Holy Shit.  Let me call the New York Times.

 

.......someone visits in Dec, things really change by April.  S

even faster,

last Dec in the beginning of my 19 days trip I received a flyer for Fun CLub from their guy on Silom and offed boy from Zeus, several days later both places were out of business.

 

Zeus door were left even  wide open so Christian and me managed to explore vacated space when we passed by the soi.

 

And by the way, such heated discussion about accuracy of maps in the OUT but honestly when was last time you guys need to use their map to reach place of  your interest ?

 

I had problem finding S52 spa because map on spa's own website was pointing it on  wrong side of the soi / they don't have  a sign at all /, mentioned it there and 1moRussian hasted with proper directions so help is always here in our hour of need.

[vinapu]

.  You seem to want to turn this thread into an "about Gaybutton" topic.  It isn't about me.  

You are good guy and your forum is very informative and well maintained if a bit of heavyhandedly at times but you must have your reason for that.

 

Your outburst here seems to be out of proportion like you have personal beef with James , OUT or both ?

 

Those are Bangkok and Pattaya maps, not ones pointing to the only  well in Sahara desert.

[Guest OutWebmaster]

I think Fan Club is closed now.

 

A side note (off topic): Will a more accurate OUT help both visitors and locals? Will one's time spent helping correct errors be more productive than bitching about what seems a rather popular hard copy resource for many?

Thanks for this. 

We found out about Fan Club in early January, and it never made it to our online maps. 

It last appeared in the January print edition - which was printed before they closed mid December. 

 

THIS is the type of information we are hoping to get from readers. 

Very helpful, thank you LoveThailand.

[williewillie]

It appears the 'tempest in a tea pot' has cooled down and clarified. Nice to be surprised and so easy to be cynical.

[Guest]

Making blank statements like "the maps aren't accurate" doesn't help us improve them.

This can help a lot. You now know the maps are inaccurate, so you can send someone around to do an on the ground check to make sure the businesses are in the correct location.

 

If you choose not to send someone around to physically check the location of businesses shown on your map, how can you guarantee the quality?

That would imply the method is to publish something and then rely on readers to correct any errors. That doesn't work.

[Guest OutWebmaster]

There's a very simple way for you to resolve those problems.  Contact Nicky's and ask permission to copy his information and maps and use them for your own web site and magazine, attributing the credit to him.  His information is always accurate and up to date - and he doesn't seem to have any problem keeping it that way.

 

 

Sage advice indeed. 

I went to Nicky's Gay Thailand site to seek out his mapping prowess. 

And found this, leaving me less certain:

 

"I am very happy to answer any questions you have on Thailand and certainly would appreciate any updates to listings that you have for the site. I can’t get to all the places every day and often miss things. I’m particularly interested in any specials, events (whether daily, weekly monthly or one-offs), or openings or closings that you can help me with."

 

I don't suggest that Nicky's site is any poorer because of this. I only suggest that perhaps Out in Thailand is not alone in asking for information, when it comes to listed businesses. 

 

Webmaster, 

Out in Thailand

[Guest surfcrest]

Your outburst here seems to be out of proportion like you have personal beef with James , OUT or both ?

Outburst? This is an anonymous forum, not high team in the Hamptons. This is precisely why I don't post here much anymore either. Even though I've been here since 2006 we get treated like we're outsiders, as though we're from outer space or something.

 

If you guys want to continually lament over "Some Model Photoshots" instead of actually discuss Gay Thailand and the quality / lack of quality resources out there, feel free. Seems to me you could use a few real new topics come up from time to time instead of trying to pile on the guy who's trying to add a little quality and objectivity to this discussion.

 

...and no, this is not an "Outburst" either.

 

Surfcrest

[Guest jomtien]

Outburst? This is an anonymous forum, not high team in the Hamptons. This is precisely why I don't post here much anymore either. Even though I've been here since 2006 we get treated like we're outsiders, as though we're from outer space or something.

 

If you guys want to continually lament over "Some Model Photoshots" instead of actually discuss Gay Thailand and the quality / lack of quality resources out there, feel free. Seems to me you could use a few real new topics come up from time to time instead of trying to pile on the guy who's trying to add a little quality and objectivity to this discussion.

 

...and no, this is not an "Outburst" either.

 

Surfcrest

Indeedy!!

[NIrishGuy]

I think the Out in Thailand owner is missing a trick here - I think everyone ( himself included) agrees that his maps aren't great sometimes and could do with someone physically checking out bars geographical locations and providing sat nav locations as well etc plus as a brief overview of the type of place and whether it was actually opened on the date visited etc.

 

Well there's one poster who ALREADY travels around a lot of the gay venues in several cities, already provides sat nav geo locations for just about everywhere he goes on his own posts, he also likes to save as much Baht as he can when travelling anywhere and also always insists on staying in cheaply priced accommodation etc, so surely with a few emails back and forth James could simply task / ask Christian to come up with a database document showing at the very least the correct locations of all the usual popular venues plus some of the lesser known ones too as I'm guessing Christian has now built up a better database in his head than perhaps ANY of the gay mag owners might ever have.

 

He would also ( and of course I'm guessing here) be quite able and happy to do all of that whilst on his own existing travels ( which he's doing anyway of course) for the pleasure of getting his own ( already cheap 500 baht a night ) room cost covered along with perhaps a few beers thrown in and maybe a one of sensible fee payment for the service rendered.

 

This way Christian gets a few free trips, the magazine gets a ( knowing Christian) VERY detailed up to date location of 80 or 90% of gay bars in all the popular cities and the rest of us get the info we need to find them thanks to Christians sat nav info and directions etc - I'd just hope that his brief would be limited to locations and opening hours etc and not actually his preferred "briefs" info lol.

 

James - you can thank me later for this masterful idea as to how to solve your apparent problem very cheaply and in a Christian like detailed manner and Christian you're welcome too for your two or three free trips :-)  There, problem solved ! :-)

[TotallyOz]

Outburst? This is an anonymous forum, not high team in the Hamptons. This is precisely why I don't post here much anymore either. Even though I've been here since 2006 we get treated like we're outsiders, as though we're from outer space or something.

 

Surfcrest

 

So, with 33 posts in total since 2006, you don't post much here anymore as you have been treated like an outsider?  Indeedy?

 

I do not see discussion limited here at all.  I see the opposite. I see people able to post about issues they want to post about and then a discussion is had.  It may not end the way you or someone else wishes, but free and open discussions are important to a forum community IMHO.

 

And, may I ask who piled on who?  There seem to be statements that were in support of the original poster and against. And, I didn't see any group pile on anything. But, then again, I may be blind and sometimes need a guide to help me navigate. 

[vinapu]

 And, I didn't see any group pile on anything.... I may be blind and sometimes need a guide to help me navigate. 

no,  you are  not blind. I'd rather say some posters overuse magnifying glass and see things much bigger than they are.

[Bob]

....we get treated like we're outsiders, as though we're from outer space or something.

 

If you guys want to continually lament over "Some Model Photoshots" instead of actually discuss Gay Thailand and the quality / lack of quality resources out there, feel free...... 

 

Surfcrest

 

I'm not sure who the royal "we" are that you're referring to but I'm guessing you mean yourself and Gaybutton?  Well, I've been around all the boards forever (although admittedly I don't post much any more here and in some locations almost never) and, while I acknowledge everybody's perceptions are different, I haven't seen or felt the different treatment you suggest.

 

Regardless.....and I'm not complaining about your ability to offer your own comment on how somebody else is treated here or elsewhere....but you're then jump on to essentially say that elsewhere (I'm guessing you're trying to talk about your board?) there is quality discussion about gay life in Thailand whereas impliedly suggesting there is none of that on this board is not exactly the best way to make friends here. What was the point of this little slam?

 

Now I'd like to be neutral about all this so let me list in order the latest ten topics on your board (which, I presume, you're arguing represents a much higher quality of discussion about gay life in Thailand):

(1)  The daily Nicky's newsletter. I've never read it but I would presume that's helpful to those in Pattaya.

(2)  A thread on Suvarnabhumi.   

(3)  The protest update thread originating last June, much of what is argument between a few opposite thinking guys who like to take shots at each other all the time.

(4)  A thread about an old message board.

(5)  A thread about smokers in a gay bar somewhere.

(6)  A thread about a rate deal at a Mariott in KhaoLak.

(7)  A thread about the Chiangmai Flower Festival.

(  A thread about police harassment in Bkk.

(9)  A thread about a buddy in HH who's cool bf used a funny phrase of my buddy not being able to "stand up" on one occasion.

(10)  A thread about some guy who likes to smell unwashed underwear.

 

Now, I myself (as you may have noticed) am not suggesting one way or the other that this list of topics is or isn't "quality" discussion of gay life in Thailand - you and others can judge that yourselves.  But I....just my weird personal preference....might on occasion rather go look at some photos of some stunning dudes than read some/most of those topics. 

 

Edit:  I didn't do the "smiley" face under #8....it popped up on its own.

[Bob]

Oh, I'd add that I really don't think anybody here "laments" over the model photo thread. Some may drool, some may have blood rushing to the smaller head, but nobody laments here.  We have a "no lament" rule (whereas drooling and boners are perfectly legal).

[Guest surfcrest]

Well Michael, with only 33 posts...or now 34, it's easy to see the reaction I've had (save for my last Cuba posts) here on Gay Thailand since taking over Sawatdee Gay Thailand. That's unfortunate, but this is not about me.

 

I'd like to think that Gaybutton and Sawatdee have a great relationship that compliments one another whenever possible. I'd always hoped and I've said this before, that all of the Boards could all be successful together if we worked more with one another, rather than against. I'd like to think it's because we all have something unique and somewhat valuable to offer. Gaybutton doesn't get this reaction on Sawatdee and I don't on Gaybutton, so why here?

 

I think that it was very inappropriate for vinapu to suggest "like you have personal beef with James , OUT or both". That's what I take exception to here. That's word for word, no magnifying glass required!

 

James and OUT have posted on Sawatdee and received a similar response from our membership. They provide a product and it's the people who decide whether it has value to them, or not. I still wish him and his business well!

 

Surfcrest

[TotallyOz]

Well Michael, with only 33 posts...or now 34, it's easy to see the reaction I've had (save for my last Cuba posts) here on Gay Thailand since taking over Sawatdee Gay Thailand. That's unfortunate, but this is not about me.

 

I'd like to think that Gaybutton and Sawatdee have a great relationship that compliments one another whenever possible. I'd always hoped and I've said this before, that all of the Boards could all be successful together if we worked more with one another, rather than against. I'd like to think it's because we all have something unique and somewhat valuable to offer. Gaybutton doesn't get this reaction on Sawatdee and I don't on Gaybutton, so why here?

 

 

I am glad you and Gaybutton have a good relationship.  That is great.  I am happy with that.  I did not know that this board was in the outside of the mix and not successful working together. This is news to me and I am glad you bring it up.

 

I do not think that working together prohibits the free flow of comments on a board.  If you feel we should give you or him special treatment as you own another board, well, that is just insane. IMHO.

 

As a member, I don't see either of you treated any different than another member.  The main difference I see is that you can't control the flow of discussion the way you can on other boards.  I don't think that is a bad thing. But, I have read this thread over again since reading your comment and have yet to see how Gaybutton was disrespected in the thread.  He got as good as he gave and he is the one that started the giving.  In your world, it may be better to let him have his say and then for the admins to jump in and protect any negative comments about him, but to me, that is just weird.  He chose to get involved in the discussion. He chose to be aggressive about his stance and he was challenged.  Isn't that what a board is suppose to allow and encourage? 

 

I have known Gaybutton for many years and I think he knows that when I have a disagreement with him over a post on a message board that it is not personal.  Some people just don't understand this.  But, adults do not have to agree and just because he owns another board, that does not mean that he deserves preferential treatment here or on your board. IMHO