Single Men Targeted Upon Exit from USA

[bkkguy]

Wouldn't the US have laws to cover that?

 

US local, state and federal law and the US Constitution cover many things and government agencies such as Homeland Security, TSA, NSA,CIA, FBI etc hold the law and the constitution in the highest regard and would never even begin to consider doing anything that in any way infringes on legal or constitutional rights of US citizens  - just ask Edward Snowden

 

meanwhile I have this bridge I would like to sell you

 

I know of no law that allows you to be questioned when leaving the USA without probable cause.  I would have told them nothing except, " why i travel to Thailand is none of you business".  Why answer their questions at all?  Are they going to arrest you or stop you traveling without :real " probable cause. 

 

I have a bridge I would like to sell you as well

 

the TSA is security theater at its worst and the abuses by Homeland Security are beyond comment but if you want to stand up to them the you do have to expect to be stopped from traveling, to spend years trying to get off a "no-fly" list and even with support of various civil liberties organizations spend a fortune to defend your rights in the courts - but until more people are willing to so this or until there is greater media and community protest about this the abuse will continue

 

bkkguy

[t0oL1]

Actually on my first visit to TH I was on the lookout for any kind of boys under any kind of duress, as that

woud actually bother me greatly. So I don't disagree in the least with their objective if t is against

trafficking people.

 

 

And while I said before that I think this has little to do with **homeland security* I think they are 

overstepping their implied mission  as they really have little to actually do. Bob might have misunderstood my intent

to the previous post since I capitalized it as **Homeland Security,** the "organization" (using the term - organization-

very loosely).

[Guest anonone]

Just a point of clarification as some terms are getting mixed up here.

 

TSA = are the folks that run the (useless) screening program before you are allowed to enter the sterile portion of the airport.  They are not Law Enforcement.  They have no investigatory powers and are not involved with customs / immigration.

Transportation Security Agency

 

CBP = are the sworn, federal law enforcement officers that run the immigration and customs process.  They are the ones that interview people entering the country...and now apparently some that are exiting the country as well.  They have arrest powers.

Customs and Border Protection.

 

Both are under the Department of Homeland Security, but they are very different agencies. 

[KhorTose]

CeeJay, US law is very different in this regard then English law.  Michael. as for trafficking, they do mean human trafficking, and it is very old news that it is rampant in Thailand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Thailand

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/thailand

 

I still wonder if what happened to you is legal, and what they would do if you told them "none of your business".  Stop you from leaving the country based on no probable cause.  Seems very unlikely to me.

[TotallyOz]

CeeJay, US law is very different in this regard then English law.  Michael. as for trafficking, they do mean human trafficking, and it is very old news that it is rampant in Thailand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Thailand

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/thailand

 

I still wonder if what happened to you is legal, and what they would do if you told them "none of your business".  Stop you from leaving the country based on no probable cause.  Seems very unlikely to me.

Thanks for the links. One of them had statistics on the USA for human trafficking and the numbers seem high to me as well. I wonder if Thailand should start questioning people traveling heading to the west for the same reasons?

 

KT, I don't think your view of legal is the current view of legal. IMHO, and only IMHO, the laws have been bended and beaten down so much that things that were black and white years ago are now grey areas. It seems that Homeland Security can do anything it wants and stay it is mandated. I think they are like the gun slingers of the Wild West.

 

I remember very well in law school my Constitutional law professors stating that the law in NYC regarding the porn businesses being moved from Time Square (or any place near a school, residence, or place of worship) would never withstand Constitutional muster. It did.

 

IMHO, the things that we allow in the USA are dictated by 5 people on the Supreme Court and it will be a great victory in my mind when a few of them die off or retire and Hillary appoints more liberal members of the court. I think only then will things change regarding our liberties being taken away.

[Up2u]

My view is one of total cooperation with CBP. I don't need some agent using me to prove a point by me being impolite or dodging questions. If my travel plans were interrupted I would not be happy. In the period from 2003 to about 2007 we(my American friends) were continually harassed by customs when returning from Thailand. We managed to get in the government computers and the agent entered a code on our custom's declaration form which meant more questions and going through every piece of luggage. That practice ended in recent years but I was asked questions in boarding my EVA flight to BKK a year or so ago. I thought nothing of it until Michael's story and post.

[Alexx]

I'm a bit baffled reading some of the comments regarding human trafficking. It's a fact that Thailand has a HUGE human trafficking problem, in various industries ranging from fishing to construction site and factory labor. That also includes the sex industry, certainly, but with a focus on Laotian, Khmer and Burmese girls working in border town brothels (and being sent to the bigger cities all over Thailand), not really Soi Twilight and similar venues catering to Western visitors. Sure, foreign boys from neighboring countries can be found in Soi Twilight as well, but them being there usually isn't the result of human trafficking.

 

Living in Bangkok, I agree that human trafficking is not at all in your face. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, even the English-language media in Thailand run stories about its victims very frequently. That's why I think it's quite reasonable to expect that an educated visitor or expat knows about the problem at large.

 

All that said, I agree with the OP that this kind of spot check looks like a pointless exercise (not surprising, considering it's the incompetent and bloated "Department of Homeland Security" we're talking about!). There's little farang involvement in the worst cases of human trafficking in Thailand, and even when Thai workers are trafficked to work abroad - for example on a farm in the States, there have been various cases that have been tried in US courts - checking OUTbound US travelers doesn't look like an effective measure to me.

[2lz2p]

The only time I saw anything similar was several years ago when I was departing Dallas Fort Worth for a direct flight to Japan connecting there for Bangkok - there were a couple of Customs officers (back then they were part of Treasury, now they are part of Homeland Security) watching as people boarded, selecting some to step aside and questioning them about the amount of currency or monetary instruments they had on them - they also were looking through handbags and carry on bags of the people being questioned.  I was not one of them -- hmmmm, come to think about it, they were only stopping South Asian and Asian folks - I'm sure it wasn't racial profiling .

 

 

 

[Guest anonone]

Thanks for the links. One of them had statistics on the USA for human trafficking and the numbers seem high to me as well. I wonder if Thailand should start questioning people traveling heading to the west for the same reasons?

 

KT, I don't think your view of legal is the current view of legal. IMHO, and only IMHO, the laws have been bended and beaten down so much that things that were black and white years ago are now grey areas. It seems that Homeland Security can do anything it wants and stay it is mandated. I think they are like the gun slingers of the Wild West.

 

I remember very well in law school my Constitutional law professors stating that the law in NYC regarding the porn businesses being moved from Time Square (or any place near a school, residence, or place of worship) would never withstand Constitutional muster. It did.

 

IMHO, the things that we allow in the USA are dictated by 5 people on the Supreme Court and it will be a great victory in my mind when a few of them die off or retire and Hillary appoints more liberal members of the court. I think only then will things change regarding our liberties being taken away.

 

My thoughts exactly. 

[bkkguy]

IMHO, the things that we allow in the USA are dictated by 5 people on the Supreme Court and it will be a great victory in my mind when a few of them die off or retire and Hillary appoints more liberal members of the court. I think only then will things change regarding our liberties being taken away.

 

It is I think unfair just to blame the Supreme Court - a succession of presidents, congresses and senates from both sides have conspired with, co-operated with or otherwise been complicit in various agencies trampling on the constitution and the rights of both US citizens and the sovereign rights of other countries and their citizens, and too many of these issues have never been anywhere near the Supreme Court!

 

this is combined with increasing apathy from the general public and an attitude of "I'm not doing anything wrong/I've got nothing to hide, so why should I care"

 

these days all you need to so is use the magic words "terrorism" or "think of the children" and all rights go out the window - not just in the US but increasingly in Australia and the UK as well - there is still perhaps some hope for Europe, and as a falung you never really had any rights in Thailand anyway ...

 

bkkguy

[firecat69]

The Supreme Court is just another political organization which of course was not how the Founders saw it.

 

Until decisions return to 7-2 or 8-1 , the Court is a total joke.. Unfortunately I don't see that happening!

[Guest]

checking OUTbound US travelers doesn't look like an effective measure to me.

Looks like a completely idiotic measure to me.  

 

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things the US does way better than the UK*, but the US border control people seem like a menace.

 

(* To list them would go off topic, but on balance I prefer a low tax free enterprise economy and to live in a country that can defend itself when the need arises.  Which it always does in the end.)

[Gaybutton]

In Michael's first post he wrote that he was questioned by Homeland Security. Suppose one of the answers was, "I'm gay.  I'm going to Thailand to have sex with young men."  Would someone please explain to me what that would have to do with Homeland Security?  What would the answers to any of those questions have to do with Homeland Security?  This is the first time I've ever heard of anyone being subjected to that kind of questioning outbound rather than inbound.

 

Would someone also please explain to me how being a single man, traveling to and from Thailand, however frequently, possibly to engage in gay sex, in any way endangers the USA?  In the questions Michael listed, what are they trying to find out?  I know of no terrorist activity or incidents that ever had anything to do with single males frequently traveling to Thailand. 

 

The problem is, as earlier posted, if you start arguing with them and/or refuse to answer their questions, you might very well end up on a no-fly list.  Oh well, there's always cruise ships.  Do they have a no-sail list?

 

I agree with firecat69's statement that the Supreme Court is a joke.  The trouble is, I'm not laughing.

[t0oL1]

I have seen some persons having been pulled over before boarding, being questioned beside folding tables containing the contents of their carry-on. Have seen these most unlikely types being questioned on god-knows-what.  Older men and elderly women, I don't remember exactly. Just figured the luck-of-the-draw and sucks to be them as I walked past on my way.

 

Don't even  remember exactly where either or which way I was travelng. Maybe a few times in Narita. Maybe a couple times in the USA. Certainly last month departing Bangkok.

 

Is it possible it was just your unlucky day that day?

Just that one time and statistically improbable to ever happen again for a long long time.

 

 BTW- Relax, have a great and safe trip, and enjoy.

Tip generously, maybe find one to take care of,

or take care of you.

[Bob]

Don't disagree with most of the comments here but maybe it's time for what I now consider a fairly humorous story of the TSA at work.  In 2005, I was flying to southern Michigan to visit one of my best friends who was hospitalized for a liver transplant.  He and his wife went down there in a hurry and I flew down the next day.  The wife's mother at the last moment gave me a carry-on for her daughter (as, given the sudden notice, her daughter flew down there with only the clothes on her back).  That carry-on was the problem.

 

So I went through the screening in my dinky northwestern Michigan city and, after the screening, two TSA guys came up to me smiling and announced that I was randomly chosen for some extra screening (they really did say something to the effect that "don't worry, we do this several times a day, and we're not targeting you for any reason").  They then started going though both of my carry-ons and the rest of it went something like this:

Q: Are these your items?

A: (without thinking too much): Sure.

Q: Are you sure these are your items?

A:  Sure (but maybe said a little less strength, being puzzled as to why I was being asked twice).

Q  (While pulling out of the daughter's bag a small pair of red panties, holding them up high, and almost shouting - all in the presence of maybe 30 other passengers...a couple of which knew me):  And these are yours!?!

A  (Rather red-faced):  Well, no.....

Q:  Is this your bag?

A:  Well, yes and no....  (My mind is beginning to panic watching the guy start pulling out stuff from the daughter's bag and wondering what the hell her mother might have put in there.....I'm imagining scissors, tampax, etc....)

Q. (While all the TSA people have converged on me and all 30 of the passengers are watching intently):  These (the red lace panties he's still holding up high for all to see) don't really look like they fit you!

A:  Hmmm....(I don't really know what to say....I'm still wondering what else is in that damn bag).  Then I tried to quickly backtrack and explain how it came to be that I was carrying the bag for my friend's wife.

Q.  Well!  Did you pack this bag???

A.  (Knowing damn well my answer could cause further consternation):  Well, no, my friend's wife's mother packed it for her daughter......but I was right next to her when she packed it!  (that last part was a lie but I figured I better say that).

Q:  Well, what else is in the bag then?

A.  (Fuck!  This ain't gonna be easy):  Mostly her clothes. (A guess on my part as I sure as hell didn't know)

 

There's a little more to the story but, thankfully, there were mostly clothes in there....I discovered that then because they unloaded the bag and checked everything.  After a few more minutes, they pretty much bought my story and let me go, albeit a bit red-faced (and thanking god/buddha the mother hadn't planted a grenade or sharp object that would have really screwed me over).  I laugh about it now but also remember the panic I enjoyed (not) for a short while.  I'll think twice in the future before carrying another bag for anyone!

[Up2u]

A good read for Americans:

 

 

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/subjectareas/child-sex-tourism.html

 

"situational abuser" can hit home for some of us. You don't have to be a pedophile or be prosecuted or even charged with a crime in the foreign country to be arrested when you return. Remember, the boy who said he was 18 in the bar is actually under 18 and you could have a big problem. BKK is the starting point for many trips to SE Asian countries so therefore the additional scrutiny.

[Guest anonone]

I have seen some persons having been pulled over before boarding, being questioned beside folding tables containing the contents of their carry-on. Have seen these most unlikely types being questioned on god-knows-what.  Older men and elderly women, I don't remember exactly. Just figured the luck-of-the-draw and sucks to be them as I walked past on my way.

 

Don't even  remember exactly where either or which way I was travelng. Maybe a few times in Narita. Maybe a couple times in the USA. Certainly last month departing Bangkok.

 

Is it possible it was just your unlucky day that day?

Just that one time and statistically improbable to ever happen again for a long long time.

 

 BTW- Relax, have a great and safe trip, and enjoy.

Tip generously, maybe find one to take care of,

or take care of you.

Michael's experience is much different then what you have observed in the boarding process. What you have witnessed is a very common occurrence - gate screenings done for security reasons, conducted by TSA. This is done as a secondary search for weapons in carry on bags, etc.

 

What Michael experienced was an exit interview conducted by Customs and Border Protection (CPB). The interview is not for security reasons but is a screening to try and discover violations of immigration or customs law.

 

Also, the USA is a bit different then most other countries as usually there is no visible immigration protocol when exiting the country. You don't stop at an immigration counter, present your passport, and be processed out. Typically, you just board the plane and off you go. This does not mean that CPB does not have the authority to conduct these interviews. Just most of the time, they don't happen.

 

I don't want to imply that any of these things make sense or are appropriate. Just clarifying how it actually is put into practice.

[Bob]

What Michael experienced was an exit interview conducted by Customs and Border Protection (CPB). The interview is not for security reasons but is a screening to try and discover violations of immigration or customs law.

 

Maybe because Michael had 37 suitcases, a retinue of valets, and the monkey that was screaming "help me! help me!"?  (Just kidding, Michael)

 

Speaking of customs, on one of my first returns to the US from over here about 15 years ago, I was flying out of Tokyo on a loaded 747 and, as it turns out, I was the only person on the plane to declare anything.  When I gave the form to the customs dude, he began to examine my list of items (stupid things I bought for relatives) and I asked him: "Am I really the only one on that plane to have anything to declare or am I just the dumbest person on that plane?"  He just grinned at me with one of those smiles that said: "Way to go, Einstein, you sure figured that out quick!"