firecat69 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Not sure where I stand on amnesty. Don't have enough facts to make decision. But I am sure he did some good things for the poor. ( I think) Seems time to put an end to it??? http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/376044/thaksin-backs-panel-on-amnesty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinapu Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 certainly he is right on this one "We [people who are fighting] will soon be gone. It is our children who will take our place and they will have to live in a bruised and battered country because of what we do, because we just want to win" / quotation from his interview above / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkguy Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 But I am sure he did some good things for the poor. ( I think) the only thing he ever did for the poor was to make sure they stayed poor - "How [else are] Ya Gonna Keep 'Em Down on the Farm [and voting for you]?" it is not in his interest - or the interest of his family, or his cronies, or even the opposition elite - to do anything else! why else do you think the Pheu Thai party's rice pledging scheme has left more poor rice farmers even further in debt but enriched the middle-class rice millers and traders? why else do you think the Democrat's rice price guarantee scheme returned some extra funds to poor farmers but not enough to really make a difference? why else do you think any government in the last 20 years - regardless of shirt colour - has not supported moves by independent farmer co-operatives to move to organic fragrant rice production or multi-cropping where poor farmers can earn substantially more without "help" from the government? why else do you think any Thai government - regardless of shirt colour - is so willing to throw money at education provided it does not actually achieve anything in educating the proles? tablets for all anybody? and the red shirt Pheu Thai MPs are really showing their true colours now - they are happy for "him" to be included in the amnesty but not Abhisit and Suthep! and the reaction from the relatives and victims of the crackdown on the red shirt protests show they are not likely to just roll over and get f***** one more time! you want to put an end to it - this is not the way! see the editorial cartoon in the Bangkok Post today! or keep reading their coverage of this - OK preaching to the converted but ... bkkguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkguy Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 "We [people who are fighting] will soon be gone. It is our children who will take our place and they will have to live in a bruised and battered country because .... ... one man wants to continue to rape the country? bkkguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinapu Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 so from bkkguy opinionated response it looks that it's best to leave to Thais themselves to sort amnesty quagmire out . If Thais are politically divided it doesn't mean admirers of their sons should wade into dispute too unless they live in Thailand permanently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecat69 Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Far be it from me to argue with someone as opinionated on the subject as bkkguy and probably more knowledge then me. However I have found anytime you find someone so opinionated there is usually another side to the argument. I don't pretend to know that argument but I do know the people who succeeded Thaksin have done nothing for the masses that I can see, so maybe there is no good choice and the powers that be are as incompetent as the fools in Washington DC. vinapu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkguy Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 so from bkkguy opinionated response it looks that it's best to leave to Thais themselves to sort amnesty quagmire out . If Thais are politically divided it doesn't mean admirers of their sons should wade into dispute too unless they live in Thailand permanently. I have lived in Thailand for most of the last 20 years and have no plans to leave any time soon and even though I have an opinion - sorry, as you and firecat69 would prefer, I am opinionated - I have I have no vote so yes it is up to the Thais to sort it out! you were the one to introduce and support the quote about future generations - do you live her permanently? and the quote was from Thaksin, but he has so far had little "chai" luck getting his son into politics, but much better "ying" luck with female relatives! but then "he" doesn't live permanently in Thailand either so I am not sure quite what point you are trying to make here! However I have found anytime you find someone so opinionated there is usually another side to the argument. anyone who has spent any time here knows that in Thailand there are never two sides to an argument - there is always the "third hand" or other mysterious forces at play! I don't pretend to know that argument but I do know the people who succeeded Thaksin have done nothing for the masses that I can see, so maybe there is no good choice I thought that was my point! but you don't have to take my opinionated word for it - search back through the Bangkok Post archives for any of the Sunday op-ed pieces by Khun Voranai Vanijaka for a Thai perspective on why "there [are] no good choice" in Thailand! bkkguy fedssocr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogie Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 but you don't have to take my opinionated word for it - search back through the Bangkok Post archives for any of the Sunday op-ed pieces by Khun Voranai Vanijaka for a Thai perspective on why "there [are] no good choice" in Thailand! Is it possible to read the archives on the BP website? On the few occasions I've looked up BP articles quite often only the first few paragraphs were visible online. I think they restrict access to articles over a certain age . . . ? six months. Perhaps I am wrong and they are available for anyone to read, but if not perhaps Bkkguy could tell us 'in a nutshell' why there are no good choices in Thailand? Is he saying there are no (zero) choices, or that there are only bad (not good) choices? vinapu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinapu Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I have lived in Thailand for most of the last 20 years and have no plans to leave any time soon and even though I have an opinion - sorry, as you and firecat69 would prefer, I am opinionated - I have I have no vote so yes it is up to the Thais to sort it out! you were the one to introduce and support the quote about future generations - do you live her permanently? and the quote was from Thaksin, but he has so far had little "chai" luck getting his son into politics, but much better "ying" luck with female relatives! but then "he" doesn't live permanently in Thailand either so I am not sure quite what point you are trying to make here! I did not mean to inflame you by stating your post is opinionated , nothing wrong with that. I simply meant that you have strong opinion on the subject. I don't live in Thailand to answer your question and probably never will , if only for reason of heat as I have very low tolerance of / I mean air temperature, not one of discussion /. Whatever one thinks about Thaksin I can not see why it can't be agreed with his statement about future generations forced to be living in country battered by squabbling politicians. This holds true not only in Thailand but also in USA , Bangladesh and plenty other 50/50 countries. Fact that we do not agree with somebody don't automatically means that we should rubbish everything person says. By 'admirers of their sons' I meant distinguished readers and contributors of this board who , unless living there permanently like you, should stay away from taking sides in Thai politics we understand very little and likely care about not much more - again this is for Thais to sort it out, including long term resident who are by those politics affected. And for every opinion expressed by the Nation or Bangkok Post is always another one expressed by some farmers in remote corner of Issan who votes too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkguy Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Is it possible to read the archives on the BP website? On the few occasions I've looked up BP articles quite often only the first few paragraphs were visible online. I think they restrict access to articles over a certain age . . . ? six months. you may be right, I am a subscriber and have registered on the web site and may have more access than unregistered/non-subscriber visitors but you don't really have to go back that far, here is a link to his articles from the last few months that I think should all be readable: http://www.bangkokpost.com/search/news-and-article?xAuthor=130&xAdvanceSearch=true and keep reading every Sunday! perhaps Bkkguy could tell us 'in a nutshell' why there are no good choices in Thailand? Is he saying there are no (zero) choices, or that there are only bad (not good) choices? "no good choices" were actually firecat's words, but I suppose basically there are zero realistic good choices - there are lots of choices, many of them bad, but unfortunately the chances of the good choices being made are square root of f**k all without significant change to the very fabric of Thai society before the last coup Thailand was a totally corrupt feudalistic patronage based society where "democracy" was a game played by a select few for their own benefit but then along came someone who played this game too well so too many other players were losing out, post-coup the various factions have become so blinded by their own selfish objectives that reconciliation is a pipe-dream OK so maybe I have more of a fixed idea about Thailand's glass being half-full or half-empty compared to Khun Voranai and I am not trying to put words in his mouth, but read his op-ed piece today where he posits two possible positions Thaksin could take - he does not directly identify one as "good" or "bad" or even directly rate which one is the most likely outcome but I would suggest neither is likely because for Thaksin it is a game to be played for his own benefit so the waters just get more muddied and Thailand continues to suffer! if you (or others) read the article, I would be interested to hear what you think! bkkguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkguy Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Whatever one thinks about Thaksin I can not see why it can't be agreed with his statement about future generations forced to be living in country battered by squabbling politicians. forgive me for being a cynic, I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment, I just doubt the sincerity - he gave this interview in Singapore just before a meeting with Pheu Thai MPs who had flown there specifically to discuss Pheu Thai policy despite his frequent claims that he is no longer interested in influencing politics in Thailand and a few days before a Skype call to a Pheu Thai party meeting where MPs where being told to vote on party lines about the constitutional amendments that were made specifically to advantage him! And for every opinion expressed by the Nation or Bangkok Post is always another one expressed by some farmers in remote corner of Issan who votes too And for every opinion expressed in the Washington Post or the New York Times there is always another one expressed by some farmers in a remote corner of Texas who vote too, particularly on issues like teaching "Creationism" as "science" in schools - your point is? bkkguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Many falang have a totally negative view of Thaksin Shinawatra although some recognize him as just a standard Thai politician (which doesn't mean entirely nice things, that's for sure) who happened to be the first (and one and only?) Thai politician that did a few things that pleased the non-wealthy of Thailand. Whether the 30-baht health scheme, agricultural loans to poor farmers, etc., was or wasn't a wise thing from a national point of view may be irrelevant as what counts in a democracy is if a majority of the citizens vote for you (or your party). Thai Rak Thai was the first political party in Thai history to garner half or more of the vote. And I personally have no doubt that a new election in which Thaksin was allowed to participate would achieve the same result. We irrelevant falang can argue it's good or bad but, in the end, we simply don't count. vinapu and KhorTose 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinapu Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 And for every opinion expressed in the Washington Post or the New York Times there is always another one expressed by some farmers in a remote corner of Texas who vote too, particularly on issues like teaching "Creationism" as "science" in schools - your point is? Farmers from remote corners of country by majority vote may force issue to be implemented , right or wrong. This is price for democracy. As long as I remember Thaksin was not voted out of office but removed by a coup . So we either believe in democracy , all bells and whistles included or we believe in democracy if suits us but if does not than all of the sudden we are falling in love with other "saviors". This was my point KhorTose 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkguy Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Whether the 30-baht health scheme, agricultural loans to poor farmers, etc., was or wasn't a wise thing from a national point of view may be irrelevant as what counts in a democracy is if a majority of the citizens vote for you (or your party). Farmers from remote corners of country by majority vote may force issue to be implemented , right or wrong. This is price for democracy. democracy is a lot like encryption - the underlying theory may be sound but poor implementations often leave open the possibility of exploits and manipulation and ultimately failure democracy and encryption are are also alike in many other ways - you need education to help people understand the issues, you need respect for freedom of speech, you need reliable sources of information and resources to make an informed decision, you need a long term timeframe to achieve real results for a country like Thailand that is supposedly trying to transition from a feudalistic patronage system via an imperfect democracy to hopefully a better democratic system (where better means better for the country as a whole long term, rather than better for a few short term), short-sighted simplistic attitudes like these above (both from Thai and falung) go a long way to explain why I see there are no realistic good options for Thailand! So we either believe in democracy , all bells and whistles included or we believe in democracy if suits us but if does not than all of the sudden we are falling in love with other "saviors". I have been accused in another forum of being an impossible idealistic libertarian, but I do believe that democracy can be a good for Thailand, but the current implementation of the "bells and whistles' here currently ignores some fundamental issues of democracy and I would rather see those addressed rather than fall in love with other "saviors". bkkguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 The coup makers also somewhat made the same argument - that the majority of voters are just too uneducated/stupid to elect proper leaders. The philosophy helped them craft one part of their imposed constitution that provided for the appointment of a chunk of the upper house by their entrenched buddies (a provision that the current Thai government appears to be on the verge of changing). Burma, a bastion of democracy (not), did the same thing and, absent the vote of some of the military seats permanently enshrined in the Burmese legislature by their dear leaders, the undemocratic constitution cannot be amended. Any element of society - whether the military or other elitist element - that argues that illegal change (i.e., a military coup) is required or justified because the voters picked the wrong party or leader are simply elements that truly have no respect for or belief in democracy. vinapu and KhorTose 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinapu Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Any element of society - whether the military or other elitist element - that argues that illegal change (i.e., a military coup) is required or justified because the voters picked the wrong party or leader are simply elements that truly have no respect for or belief in democracy. As one of those people for whom Sept 11 is not as much anniversary of bombing of World Trade Center as anniversary of bloody Pinochet's coup in Chile in 1973 I'm signing your statement above with both hands ! Yes, sometimes forceful removal of people in power my be good thing but it should not be dressed as defense of democracy neither as exercise of saving nation from itself. I don't have much an idea if Thaksin was good or bad leader but can help not to notice that his power was sneakily stolen from him and no pleasurable case can be made that country or it's people were made visibly better by this theft. KhorTose 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecat69 Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 The fight continues: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/377608/democrats-keep-focus-on-samsen-rally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinapu Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 The fight continues: No surprise as even on this forum we seem to have kind of different opinions about the issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecat69 Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 The Saga continues: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/378040/marchers-academics-urge-senate-to-reject-blanket-amnesty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinapu Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 It looks that government underestimated opposition resistance to the amnesty and they mat still reconsider.. And opposition does not presents any plausible argument for their case hiding behind the façade of ' defending monarchy '. Just my opinion, I may be wrong. Still believe electoral verdict on issue would be preferable than staged protests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecat69 Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 The saga continues: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/378973/coalition-partners-to-kill-amnesty-bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecat69 Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 And more in this never ending saga: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/379013/groups-escalate-push-to-oust-yingluck-government Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trailrider Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I find it quite amusing that firecat69 accuses bkkguy of being opinionated. It is much like an arsonist complaining that his soup is too hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I find it quite amusing that firecat69 accuses bkkguy of being opinionated. It is much like an arsonist complaining that his soup is too hot. Whereas I find it quite amusing that I missed that one critical day in college where they explained bizarre analogies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinapu Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 I find it quite amusing that firecat69 accuses bkkguy of being opinionated. It is much like an arsonist complaining that his soup is too hot. You like to inflame things, do you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
