+ and ++

[bkkguy]

I was having a coffee at Coffee Society (Silom, BKK) yesterday  - I have never really liked their service or staff attitude so it has been a while since I have been there but I was meeting a Thai friend and it was his choice!

 

it is order at the counter so I looked at the menu and ordered an iced late - 95 Baht, got 100 baht out of my wallet to pay only to be told by the cashier that it was 102 Baht

 

I politely re-opened the menu and pointed to the price and the cashier, oh so condescendingly, pointed to the text "price exclude VAT" in small print on the opposite page

 

I have been visiting and living in Thailand for more than 20 years and except at international hotel chains and a few other places this was never the norm in Thailand and I get increasingly pissed off as more and more places here try to mislead customers this way - I have no choice about paying VAT so tell me how much the item will really cost me, don't try to make your prices look cheaper by excluding VAT - or give me a calculator with the menu so I can work out the real price myself!

 

and if you don't want to pay your staff a real wage and expect me to make that up as a forced tip or "service charge" then include that in the price printed in the menu as well or give me a calculator with the menu so I can work out the real price myself!

 

disappointingly at least 50% of the small cafes and coffee/dessert places in Silom Complex now list prices as + or (more usually)  ++ in their menu!

 

as I say it is a while since I last visited Coffee Society so this may have always been their policy and I have just forgotten - at least given their usual poor service they did not have the audacity to add a service charge as well!

 

if you are good at maths 7% of 95 Baht is 6.65 Baht (as they do show on their cash register receipt) thus the total is  actually 101.65 Baht, rounded to available note/coin combinations that is actually 101.75 - but I doubt they would accept 101.75 Baht as the receipt clearly said 102 Baht

 

OK so I am being pedantic and I am sure Coffee Society is not selling the millions of coffees a day that would make this rounding a major financial benefit to them, but why not just include the real price to me the customer in the menu and in their tax return pay whatever they need to pay for VAT?

 

bkkguy

 

 

 

[Guest fountainhall]

I had dinner the other night in Wine Connection in the basement of Silom Complex where 10% + 7% were added, Yet, upstairs in Starbucks you pay a nett price. When I bought a couple of shirts in a sale also in Silom Complex, it was again a nett price. Why should any form of eatery not include the VAT into its quoted price like other shops and stores?

 

Bangkok is getting like the US where nett prices are almost unheard of - in my experience.

[Rogie]

I'll have to keep an eye on that next time I'm in Bangkok.

 

If the bill comes to a genuine 95 baht all-in, the majority of customers will tender a 100 baht and probably leave the change.

 

If the bill comes to 102 baht most customers will give a 100 + a 20, total 120 baht. Some customers may then leave the 18 baht change.

 

Of course, some customers will pocket the 18 baht!

[vinapu]

I had dinner the other night in Wine Connection in the basement of Silom Complex where 10% + 7% were added, Yet, upstairs in Starbucks you pay a nett price. When I bought a couple of shirts in a sale also in Silom Complex, it was again a nett price. Why should any form of eatery not include the VAT into its quoted price like other shops and stores?

 

Bangkok is getting like the US where nett prices are almost unheard of - in my experience.

Exactly, in both US and Canada prices shown are almost always prices before tax so one never pays what is on the price tag but 3-15 % more unfortunately.

 

Logic is that buyer can see how much tax he pays but this is crap-simply prices are looking lower.

 

Petrol in one exception I can think of where you pay what you see.

 

Sad to hear that this BS is creeping in Thailand.

[Guest]

In the UK, some retailers used to quote prices excluding VAT.

Then the government passed law requiring businesses that sell predominantly to a retail market to quote prices including VAT.

 

I would argue that this kind of concept should be applied to all kinds of retail activity. 

After all, if the customers have to pay the extra charges, it should be included for the convenience of the customer.

 

Or is there any reason why the customer should have to do mental arithmetic to work out the cost of any item?

 

If that is OK, why not take it further?  Exclude tax, service, cooking, plate washing, tax paid on fuel to transport he food & costs of harvesting the food.  And of course the debit card charge. 

Coffee cost = 20 baht + 600% in taxes.    Just like a "low cost" airline.

[bkkguy]

If the bill comes to 102 baht most customers will give a 100 + a 20, total 120 baht. Some customers may then leave the 18 baht change.

 

Of course, some customers will pocket the 18 baht!

 

you almost make this sound like a bad thing to pocket the 18 Baht - but at Coffee Society their advertised price is 95 Baht but I actually have to pay 102 Baht, I have to go to the counter to order and to pay and they usually only begrudgingly offer to bring my drink to my table,  I am not American - perhaps someone here could explain to me why i should even begin to consider leaving them 18 Baht in this scenario!  of course the owner's fantasy about how he can maximize his revenue from such customer manipulation is another issue!

 

bkkguy

[vinapu]

 someone here could explain to me why i should even begin to consider leaving them 18 Baht in this scenario! 

 

for example you don't like coins in your pocket- 18 baht is at least 5 coins   a so all this is neat trick by the greedy owner

[Rogie]

you almost make this sound like a bad thing to pocket the 18 Baht - but at Coffee Society their advertised price is 95 Baht but I actually have to pay 102 Baht, I have to go to the counter to order and to pay and they usually only begrudgingly offer to bring my drink to my table,  I am not American - perhaps someone here could explain to me why i should even begin to consider leaving them 18 Baht in this scenario!  of course the owner's fantasy about how he can maximize his revenue from such customer manipulation is another issue!

 

bkkguy

 

 

for example you don't like coins in your pocket- 18 baht is at least 5 coins   a so all this is neat trick by the greedy owner

 

 

note: my bold

 

Sorry if I confused anyone. I wish I hadn't made it now!

 

Maybe I should put myself in the shoes of the guy getting 18 baht change. What would I do? I certainly didn't mean to imply pocketing it was bad. To be honest if it was more or less self-service, I probably would grab the whole 18 baht! If it was waiter service and the coffee or whatever I ordered came to my table and the waiter smiled sweetly plus the ambience of the place pleased me, I'd certainly leave some change, either the whole whack or the 8 baht in small change. 

 

Vinapu has correctly read my mind. Either the owner is greedy or I am a victim of conspiracy theory mania. 

[NIrishGuy]

What cracks me in Thailand is the whole good grace thing seems to be 100% strictly one way.

 

Such as in the above example the bill comes unexpectedly to say 102 baht, you already have 100 baht in your hand and perhaps only another 1000 note on your person to pay with, well hell there's NO chance they'll say "oh that's ok, sure give it to me next time, or "hey that's ok, thanks for the business, don't worry about it" oh no, they wait and take that 1000 no matter what and if that then means you ending up with a mountain of change in your pocket - TOUGH !

 

Likewise recently on checking out of Tarntawan they did the usual "Did you use anything from the mini bar last night before checking out Sir?"  - and with me it's usually either "No I didn't" or the odd time sometimes maybe its "oh, I had a small bar of chocolate" - as I then smile and rub my tummy and make some crack about and I really enjoyed it as as I know it's tiny and only costs about 30 baht or so I think nothing more about it.  

 

They THEN (and after having already asked me) keep me standing waiting at reception like a pillock as they ring housekeeping and ask them to go check (like why not just do that in the first place if they really must!) and the worst part is ( and this has happened ) IF I have perhaps already settled my bill with them for maybe a weeks stay at say upwards of 25,000 baht roughly, they'll then call me back and say "Sorry Sir we forgot to charge for the chocolate (30 baht after paying 25k !!!! ) - now as I've stayed there many times the first time this happened I laughed thinking they were joking but I soon realised and now know they weren't and aren't  - as they stand with their hand out waiting for the 30 baht change to appear from my pocket.  

 

Now fair enough I'm not debating that the 30 baht is owed so I pay it BUT !! wobetide should I happen to say not tip a bell boy enough or god forbid not at all ( never happens) or in the likes of the above example have no choice but to break a new1000 baht note for one or two baht on a bill - well TOUGH - you break it Sir and pay us please - but the other way round and you sometimes think and expect "oh they're sure to drop the one or two baht off" to help you out - NO CHANCE !    It seems the whole "it's nice to be nice" thing only works one way  - especially if and when it's about money anyway it seems in Thailand - and that does my box in every time :-)

[Rogie]

I was in a mid-priced hotel in Chanthaburi last year and on checking out I was somewhat taken aback to be informed I still owed them 10 baht. "10 baht, says I, how can I possibly owe you (implied: such a paltry sum), I haven't used the mini bar?". Ah, sir is perhaps forgetting the bottle of water (NB.one of the two 'free' ones)  sir dropped on the floor in his room? "Yes, I recall that, and I was very grateful for room service who came and promptly dealt with it, so what's the problem?". The glass bottle sir, it smashed to pieces and replacement cost is 10 baht!! Exit me, having fished out the requisite 10 baht coin, not knowing whether to laugh or to cry . . .

[vinapu]

I don't agree with you Nirish,

 

on more than one occasion, taxi drivers of all people ! in Bangkok either told me to forget about last 5 baht or simply gave me higher change i.e. 20 baht from 100 baht bill on 85 baht fare.  /last time  in May on Grand Place-Vinamek trip /

[NIrishGuy]

Ha yes like you I've also had the bottle of water bill presented to me in several hotels - usually as I have ended up opening up the "wrong" bottle of water at 4am some morning with the lights off and whilst dying of thirst and reaching for the first bottle to hand - as of course I've ended up lifting not the two free glass singha bottles but the MUCH more expensive 10 baht singha PLASTIC bottle option - OHHHHH shock horror !??? :-)

 

Which always makes me wonder what the HELL might be in the free bottles and why if they honestly believe its of a lesser (perceived) quality or they dont think my business is worth the 6 baht difference than than 10 baht plastic bottles that they even bother / have the cheek to give the glass bottles to their valued guests !?

 

But like you what with it being Thailand one simply smiles through gritted teeth and pays up - whilst all the while in the back of my head thinking these Thai people must REALLY think us farang are such a push over and as thick as shit as to even continually try this crap on us and worse still us still to put up with it as we're paying our 30,000 baht check out bills ( not including tips of course :-) ! But hey ho, I guess its all just part of the lovely LOS experience - and at least we did get to drink the "expensive" bottle of water :-)

[vinapu]

The glass bottle sir, it smashed to pieces and replacement cost is 10 baht!! Exit me, having fished out the requisite 10 baht coin, not knowing whether to laugh or to cry . . .

Neither laugh or cry ,just pay.

 

Quite possibly room attendant making 20 baht per hour or less would be charged by management for shortage in case of broken bottle or missing chocolate bar from the fridge.

 

Being nice guy you don't want do this to people who smiled at you nicely every morning, afternoon and evening / and possibly even asked you if you want massage by them  in your room  /

[NIrishGuy]

Ah but IF you were stealing the chocolate or hiding the broken bottle you may have a point about some poor unfortunate member of house keeping getting stiffed with the cost for not informing management and that would of course be a lousy thing to do by anyone - BUT when you've already made it clear to management at check out as you pay them your 25 or 30k baht that yes you drank a 10 baht bottle of water or ate one 30 baht bar of chocolate during your weeks stay then that is more just the hotel being miserable bastards and screwing you for every penny they can - but all whilst smiling at you whilst they do it of course and holding out their collective hands for their tips as you depart ......bless em eh :-)

[NIrishGuy]

Ha I could go on and on - in a cafe I and whoever I'm with eats breakfast in EVERY DAY I have a long running ( and totally unsuccessful) dispute ongoing with the owner as I order my same food each day, it comes with toast and each day I ask the waitress for butter for my toast ( as it arrives plain), she then delivers a small square of butter and a shachet of jam and then lifts my check and adds 20 baht to it. Now I know the girls well and one day said REALLY !? You're really going to continually charge my 20 baht even though I eat here every day, never ask for or touch the jam ( as its a fry up) and your one round of toast comes butterless, wherein she smiled and says "oh big boss say I have to for everyone".

 

So, one fine day when the big boss happened to be there I joking pointed out this little ongoing farce which takes place each morning and to my amazement got a lecture about how the cost of things is going up and why would I expect NOT to pay extra if I wanted butter on my toast, I then gave up and laughed in disbelief and paid my 20 baht pointing out that I was going to invite them to my home for breakfast one morning but there would be no milk in their tea nor butter on their toast as things were going up you know but apart from that they were most welcome - needless to say the irony and polite sarcasm was lost on them :-).

[vinapu]

Ah but IF you were stealing the chocolate or hiding the broken bottle you may have a point about some poor unfortunate member of house keeping getting stiffed with the cost for not informing management and that would of course be a lousy thing to do by anyone - BUT when you've already made it clear to management at check out as you pay them your 25 or 30k baht that yes you drank a 10 baht bottle of water or ate one 30 baht bar of chocolate during your weeks stay then that is more just the hotel being miserable bastards and screwing you for every penny they can - but all whilst smiling at you whilst they do it of course and holding out their collective hands for their tips as you depart ......bless em eh :-)

You are 125% right with your complain but how much of your 30000 you paid goes actually to the pocket of guy on reception you are dealing with on departure?

 

Pont I'm making is that  they are doing their job and my not have any leeway in pricing / charges.

[williewillie]

I eat often at Or Ahan Thai on S. Pattaya Rd. with bf.

Frequently, the bill is 515b. and I give the waiter 1000b.

and he rounds the bill off and

gives me 500b. bill back.

We are regulars there and I normally

leave a small tip.

Not everyone is greedy and I find some of

the cheapest and meanest are baht-pinching farangs.

[NIrishGuy]

You are 125% right with your complain but how much of your 30000 you paid goes actually to the pocket of guy on reception you are dealing with on departure?

 

Pont I'm making is that they are doing their job and my not have any leeway in pricing / charges.

I totally agree and understand that, thus I pay my bill and "smile" - but it IS that very fact that the receptionist or whoever is not given or does not have or does not suggest or ask for that said leeway to drop the 10 baht off a 30000 baht bill if they feel its appropriate from their own management that drives me nuts.

 

As let's face it Thais whilst they may not have the authority to make changes like that aren't stupid and even they MUST be aware that to force and issue of 10 baht on a 30K bill appears somewhat mean and excessive SURELY ? Although actually I do wonder about that to as perhaps in their culture it's something they don't even think about and "if its due its due" but I have a sneaking suspicion if it were them paying the 30k bill then they may too might also share my view on the matter if the boot were on the other foot perhaps ?

[ChristianPFC]

Totally agree with the op. As far as I know, this practice is outlawed in Europe.

 

I vaguely remember places that just add 10% service or charge or 7% VAT (the other is already included), and I recently had a 5% service charge added at a self-service food court.

 

But, now I know to look out for the small print on the bottom of the menu, so I can either eat there or not. I still disagree with this practice, and if I see 10% + 7% in the menue, I often leave in the hope to find another place.

 

I vividly remember when I first became victim (or may the first time I checked the bill and realized what was going on) last year, I thought: What the fuck? Are you kidding/screwing me?