Tipping (but not in the bars)

[bkkguy]

 Almost everyone else around you in Thailand realises tipping simply isn't expected in the first place. 

 

What depresses me is the growing number of even small restaurants and cafes that are getting greedy and going "++" - take a walk around Silom Complex or just about anywhere in Bangkok these days and see the small print on too many menus saying "prices plus tax and service charge"

 

 

To me it is totally false advertising for BA to be promoting return flights to London for as low as something like Bt. 23,000. Get into their site and you then find the extras like fuel, airport charges, government fees and taxes take this up to around Bt. 40,000.

 

Thai Airways is even more confusing on their web site - if you click to book a regular air fare the first and every price shown is all inclusive, but if you click to book one of the current "specials" the first price you see looks really cheap till you get to the end of the booking and they show the final price including all the extras!

 

 

On the subject of air fares, in my experience only a few sites will give you a breakdown of all the extra charges. Usually they are lumped into one or two categories.

 

 

Air Asia actually does it fairly well on their web site by leg, by type of charge, automatically updating as you change the selected flight etc

 

bkkguy

[Guest]

Having worked in Japan, I'm not even sure this is true, with respect. Certainly if you take guys from a host bar, they will turn down an offer of tips. The fee you pay covers all financial obligations. Unless, of course, you regard the set fee as a tip.

I've never seen anyone in Japan's gay bars solicit tips and suspect it would be insulting to offer one. 

Apparently paying a host for his services in Japan is perfectly legal, so it can be a fee, rather than a tip.

[kokopelli]

Is there some sort of fine distinction between a tip and a fee for someone who is selling their ass for sex?  Perhaps an honorarium would be appropriate for such a delicate transaction?

As Shakesphere said, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

[Guest]

Is there some sort of fine distinction between a tip and a fee for someone who is selling their ass for sex?

As the planet is full of law abiding citizens, people would only consider charging a fee for sex where it is legal to do so.

So a Japanese host bar might have a fixed pricing arrangement published on their website.

 

In some other countries, the law is less favourable, so it may be advisable to solicit tips from the client.

 

Or that's how they tell me it works .

[Rogie]

  Perhaps an honorarium would be appropriate for such a delicate transaction?

 

Yes, good word. Means a fee for (professional) services rendered. So if the transaction was amateurish then no fee, or a smaller fee might be in order.

 

And why delicate? Not everybody wants delicacy.

 

Easy way to avoid all those incidental charges is fly First Class and Business Class.

 

Yes maybe at first glance it would seem so, but as FH pointed out there are different kinds of business class, at least as far as BA is concerned. It seems you really do have to know your onions even  in business!

[Rogie]

On the subject of air fares, in my experience only a few sites will give you a breakdown of all the extra charges. Usually they are lumped into one or two categories. But flying through London, to continue the example, now involves so many different types of taxes that I for one would like to know who is getting what.

 

(my bold)

 

Whenever I am researching flights from the UK to Thailand, BA is never the cheapest.

 

So the last few times I've flown to Thailand I've used Emirates or Etihad. They both fly from Manchester (changing in Dubai or Abu Dhabi) thus avoiding London altogether. Whereas using BA I would get an internal UK flight to London, change terminals and from there fly to Bangkok.

 

I don't have the paperwork to hand, but I seem to recall when breaking down the total fare that the tax component of the middle eastern airlines was a lot less than when flying with BA. In other words the basic cost for BA was lower, but by the time tax was added the total fare was higher.

 

Returning to FH's point that I quoted, I am wondering if my experiences have anything to do with flying from or through London?

[Guest fountainhall]

I am wondering if my experiences have anything to do with flying from or through London?

 

Yes, is the quick answer. Heathrow and the UK in general has among the expensive airports in the world for international departures, but not all as a result of passenger departure taxes. There is a raft of taxes, duties, payments etc. that are paid every time you depart - and they depend on your destination.

 

Passenger Departure Tax

 

This is actually called the Air Passenger Duty and it goes direct to the government – not to the airline. All passengers leaving all UK airports pay this and it depends on the length of your flight. This is banded into four categories with payments as follows:

 

0 - 2,000 miles : £13 for economy / £26 for premium classes

2,000 - 4,000 miles : £67 for economy / £134 for premium

4,000 - 6,000 miles : £83 for economy / £166 for premium

6,000+ miles : £94 for economy /£188 for premium

 

This is paid only on departing flights – not inbound.

 

That’s just one payment, but it is a total misnomer to say it is based on mileage. It isn’t! It is based on miles between capital cities!! So if you are flying from anywhere in the UK to JFK (from 3,100 – 3,400 miles approx.), the UK regards that as flying from London to Washington DC (3,687 miles).

 

But . . . fly between London and Honolulu (7,248 miles) and you’ll still pay Band 2 because you are still in America – even though in terms of distance you have moved well into to Band 4! This makes zero sense!

 

There’s another anomaly (and others)! If you are in a premium cabin, it makes a lot of financial sense to make sure your first flight out of London is in the lowest band – i.e. to Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt, Helsinki etc. – and then connect in those cities. An economy passenger going on to BKK then pays only £13 tax, and a business passenger £26 - instead of £83 and £166 respectively. Naturally these airports may also have taxes, but it unlikely they will be levied if you are on an immediate connection.

 

Note: since the Gulf States are all more than 2,000 miles away, you are going to be in a higher band anyway. So the lower cost of the ticket must be attributable to the airlines' own lower cost base.

 

Another anomaly is that if you are flying through London on a connecting flight from another country and stop for less than 24 hours, you do not pay this UK departure tax at all. So instead of paying £166 tax to fly business LHR/BKK, get a cheap economy flight for the short hop to Dublin and then fly from there. Dublin’s international departure tax is only €3. So total taxes are just £13 + €3. Of course you still have to get that cheap one-way ticket to Dublin which may cancel out some of the savings. But you will still be better off!

 

Other Taxes

 

According to the CAA website, there are three other taxes levied in the UK – a UK passenger service charge levied directly by the airlines, an Insurance and Security charge imposed by the airlines, and fuel surcharges. That's not exactly all, though, for there is now also the European Union 'green' tax and the booking fees charged by airlines!

[kokopelli]

 

 

You're the only one who thinks he's expected to tip or give excuses for not tipping. Almost everyone else around you in Thailand realises tipping simply isn't expected in the first place. 

 

As mentioned previously, I tip because I wish to, not because I have to.  All my farang friends do tip however they are mostly Americans.   I will say that my Thai bf does expect me to tip when  in restaurants.

 

Having said all that, I admit my initial comments on tipping were over-the-top and could be viewed as offensive to some persons. Mea culpa.

[kokopelli]

This post on  tipping has genereated some strong opinions and stong words.  Likely because the tipping culture in different countries is so ingrained and vastly different. From giving little or nothing and up to 20% plus.  There are countries where tipping is not expected, nor encouraged and even considered insulting  while in places as the USA tipping in restaurants is customary. In the USA  to not tip or leave very little is considered either an insult or a rebuke for poor service.  Even among companions at a restauant the ones who demand a separate bill and leaves a minor tip is frowned upon as a CC.  Having said that  the tipping in the USA at a rate of 20% for routine or medicore service is way out of line.

As for Thailand, whether a tip is expected or not, I have never seen anyone insulted by the offering.

[Rogie]

  Having said that  the tipping in the USA at a rate of 20% for routine or medicore service is way out of line.

 

As already mentioned, the expectation to tip for services rendered in the USA hasn't always been accepted. It is now but that doesn't mean it can't change again. I wouldn't want to do away with tipping altogether, and let's not forget the list of people you may wish to consider tipping extends far beyond restaurant waiters.

 

IMO an ideal situation in a country where tipping is entrenched is that it should be much more flexible, so as others have said good service ought to get a better tip than poor service. And, sticking with restaurants, I still haven't worked out the economics of what's going on here . . . if it's routine for waiting staff in the USA to get a very low basic wage, surely that's skewing it greatly in favour of the restaurant owner. It would come as no surprise to me to learn that, rather like the tuk tuks and taxis in Phuket or the baht bus mafia in Pattaya, they're perfectly happy with the status quo, thank you very much!

[Guest Enchanter]

That's fair enough, Kokopelli. No one's offended by you tipping or tipping more. It's just when you denigrate others for not doing the same as you without logical justification. It would be like me refusing to tip the mandatory 20% in America and also denigrating other foreigners for not doing as I do (unlike your case in Thailand, I would not get away with either of the two behaviours). It's not about being stingy or generous. It's simply about adapting to local customs. 

 

Personally, I think tipping is good, but it should not be considered mandatory (i.e. tipping regardless of the level of service) as this simply defeats the purpose of tipping. It should be discretionary and done in cases where the service has been outstanding or extra accommodating. 

[ChristianPFC]

Two weeks ago, I ate at the food court in Central Latprao. There is no service apart from staff cleaning the table, you take your plate with your meal and go to your table, same for drinks. Yet they have a 5% service charge.

 

Another observation is that prices are usually in steps of 5 Baht. With 10% service charge, you might get a final price in full Baht, but with 7% VAT you get fractions of Baht in the final price, which leads to rounding as there are only 50 and 25 Satang coins in circulation.

[ChristianPFC]

Two weeks ago, I ate at the food court in Central Latprao. There is no service apart from staff cleaning the table, you take your plate with your meal and go to your table, same for drinks. Yet they have a 5% service charge.

 

Another observation is that prices are usually in steps of 5 Baht. With 10% service charge, you might get a final price in full Baht, but with 7% VAT you get fractions of Baht in the final price, which leads to rounding as there are only 50 and 25 Satang coins in circulation.

[vinapu]

 As for me, I tip because I want to not because I have to and don't have a list of excuses for not doing so.

 

As for the minimum wage, it is reassuring that all Tthais are now compensated fairly with a living wage.

I second that, we tip because we want to. It makes us and other side happy. If we don't want , we do not tip or tip very little but unfortunately we need to live with consequences if tip was expected.

 

Sometimes one  wonders where complains about slow or unsmiling service are coming from. 

 

Even if Thais  don't tip we farangs likely are expected to tip I guess and as long as it is not requested we should.

 

For most of us is still token amount  and don't have idea why people are  spoiling their vacations and stealing their fun from themselves due  penny pinching or haggling over few cents worth.  

 

I'm not picking up at anybody because I was the same at one, thanks God, short time of my  life in my travels and in recollection still feel uneasy over that.

[vinapu]

I am with KoKo in that I feel the wages are far to low and know what is small money to me, is not to them. Frankly, I enjoy doing it, in the hopes that he might make someone's life happier.

you have a good heart !

[vinapu]

This post on  tipping has genereated some strong opinions and strong words

I always amazes me how heated people  are becoming when discussing  other people's money and how they spend it.

 

Every post on tipping on very forum seems  always most popular and generates most od what you call mildly 'strong opinions and words"

 

Just an observation

[Guest]

I always amazes me how heated people  are becoming when discussing  other people's money and how they spend it.

 

Every post on tipping on very forum seems  always most popular and generates most od what you call mildly 'strong opinions and words"

Well, there are significant differences in culture between countries, differences between personal wealth and differing personal savings ratios.

Some come from countries where tipping is expected to be part of personal income, others from countries where the service is included in the price.

Some people fail to understand these differences, so they conclude their culture is superior and strongly express an opinion.

[firecat69]

No doubt about it. I am from USA and find myself always over tipping at restaurants.  It just kills me to leave the small change that you get many times which is acceptable in Thailand.  I try to force myself not to exceed 10% unless as service charge has been added and then I leave only small coins

[vinapu]

Well, there are significant differences in culture between countries, differences between personal wealth and differing personal savings ratios.

Some come from countries where tipping is expected to be part of personal income, others from countries where the service is included in the price.

Some people fail to understand these differences, so they conclude their culture is superior and strongly express an opinion.

still it explains difference in opinions but where aggression is coming from ? all those  'cheap Charlies"  and ' you spoil the market by overtiping" . And this is not only this or even gay forums phenomena but seems to be universal   right , left and center whenever humanity talks about other people money and spending habits.

[vinapu]

No doubt about it. I am from USA and find myself always over tipping at restaurants.  It just kills me to leave the small change that you get many times which is acceptable in Thailand.  I try to force myself not to exceed 10% unless as service charge has been added and then I leave only small coins

I'd say only reason to reduce restaurant tip if you wish so would be to consider how much you tip your waiter who spent few minutes to serve you in relation to amount you tip your boy you spent hours and may be night together, even if just being his pillow.

 

personally in restaurants I leave 20 baht note in bill's total is 300 or less, 40 baht if it's more with extra 20 if it crosses 1000 mark and grab all coins for BTS / MRT

[Guest]

I'd say only reason to reduce restaurant tip

Not sure where you're from, but you are presuming one should tip in restaurants & the discussion point is should this be reduced?

 

That presumption shows significant cultural discrimination.

 

That's an assumption that an American style tipping culture is superior to something like the Japanese culture, where outstanding customer service is included in the price & the tip would be an insult?

Give me the Japanese way any day. I'm not being cheap -eating out in Japan will still cost more than in most western countries, but you can expect outstanding service & not have to consider the inconsistencies of tipping culture.

 

Now why should one tip? In America, I would tip, in Japan I would not. The total cost in Japan would be higher & the service is likely to be superior. I prefer the Japanese system.

 

Most of Asia doesn't have a tipping culture. So no obligation. Up to the customer. For good service -I tend to tip, for bad service, it is unlikely.

 

To impose the tipping culture of certain western countries is a form of imperialism.

 

[NB Thread is specifically excluding bars, see title. Expectations may be quite different there.]

[vinapu]

Not sure where you're from, but you are presuming one should tip in restaurants & the discussion point is should this be reduced?

 

That presumption shows significant cultural discrimination.

 

That's an assumption that an American style tipping culture is superior to something like the Japanese culture, where outstanding customer service is included in the price & the tip would be an insult?

Give me the Japanese way any day. I'm not being cheap -eating out in Japan will still cost more than in most western countries, but you can expect outstanding service & not have to consider the inconsistencies of tipping culture.

 

Now why should one tip? In America, I would tip, in Japan I would not. The total cost in Japan would be higher & the service is likely to be superior. I prefer the Japanese system.

 

Most of Asia doesn't have a tipping culture. So no obligation. Up to the customer. For good service -I tend to tip, for bad service, it is unlikely.

 

To impose the tipping culture of certain western countries is a form of imperialism.

 

[NB Thread is specifically excluding bars, see title. Expectations may be quite different there.]

No, I'm not American and I'm not coming from tipping culture.

 

I was responding to firecat's musings about forcing himself not to tip more than 10% so gave him  idea how to look into  issue .

 

I'm not presuming that one should tip but realize that in many places tips are expected from foreigners even if local culture doesn't require to   tip. It's why I tip in Thailand, not much as one can see above but still tip. I feel good and recipient I hope  too.

 

Agree 100% that Japanese / Pacific  system of not tipping  is better since doesn't create any obligation as you noted.

 

Probably forcing Japanese non-tipping culture on Americans would be form  of imperialism as well. Old enough people remember that 30 years ago prediction was that 21 century will belong to Japan but somehow it did not work.

[kokopelli]

My tipping depends a great deal on just how many drinks I tipped before I tip. I recall the word origin "tip" derives from tipple or something like that. The French use a similar expression for a tip, "pourboire" meaning for a drink. Thus you leave some cash for the server  for a drink.

 

In Thailand I do see a lot of inconsistency in tipping practices; for instance at the beer bars (although we are frowned upon to mention"bar" in this discussion) it is common to leave 20 Baht even if the drink is 80 Baht  but in a restaurant where there is a great deal more service and a much higher bill, a common tip is still 20 Baht.

[ChristianPFC]

I am against tipping and prefer a system like in Japan (I only know it from reading in these threads, no personal experience).

 

I only tip because I feel social pressure to do so, and I don't want to stick out negatively. However if someone asks for a tip he is likely to get none. I decide if and how much I tip, not you.

 

I hand dinner with two Thai friends in a restaurant in my area (99.9 % Thai customers, and 0.1 % ChristianPFC) that amounted to 842 Baht. Having read that tipping is uncommon amongst Thais, I took all the change, but then one of my friends left a 20 Baht tip.

 

tip (English) = pourboire (French, "for a drink") = Trinkgeld (German, "for a drink", even if a taxidriver you give "money for drink")

[kokopelli]

Christian, I trust that you paid the bill of 842 Baht for the three of you?  I applaud your Thai friend.