Tipping (but not in the bars)

[Guest fountainhall]

Whilst most of the gay forums have threads about how much to tip bar boys, the more general business of to-tip-or-not-to-tip has come up again in a long article on the BBC website. It provides a list of the tips commonly given for a variety of services in New York –

* Sitdown meal: 15-20%
* Buffet meal: 10%
* Home delivery: 10-15%
* Bartender: $1-2 a drink
* Toilet attendant: 50c-$3
* Valet: $2-5
* Doorman: $1-4 for luggage, $1-2 for hailing a cab (add a $1 in the rain)
* Hotel housekeeper: $2-5 a day
* Taxi: 15-20%
* Hair/Facial/Massage/Manicure: 15-20%

Inevitably, though, tourists are often confused about who to tip and how much to tip – and even in some cases, especially the Japanese – fail to understand why its necessary to tip at all. Well, one reason is spelled out in the article.
 

The federal minimum wage for tipped restaurant workers is $2.13 an hour, with tips expected to take the wage to $7.25 an hour.

 

"It was difficult and I lived and died by my tips," says Dublanica, who worked in New York restaurants for seven years and wrote a blog about it called Waiter Rant.

 

"If you don't tip, I can't pay the rent. But the reality is you can work hard and get no tips and do nothing and get good tips."

 

Not being American, I find it ridiculous that $5 per hour should effectively be deducted from anyone’s wage and customers expected to make up the difference. If it did in fact result in better service, which I assume was the idea in the first place, I wouldn’t mind so much. But so many people I come across in New York almost have their hand out waiting for a tip before I have a chance to get out any bills and when I have never had even a smile out of them.

But finally, there is one restaurant in New York that has informed customers – no tips! Not surprisingly it is a Japanese sushi restaurant which has this little message at the bottom of the bill.



In other countries, service charges are commonly added in lieu of tips. Here in Thailand, 10% seems to be the norm and most restaurant patrons still believe that this goes to the staff. Yet as has been discussed on this forum before, many restaurants give almost none of it to the staff. At Zanotti’s (discussed under the recent Pizza thread on the Thailand board), many staff left a few years ago in protest over getting only 1.5% of that 10% service charge. The owner pocketed the rest.

The BBC article also points out that in Taiwan not even one cent of the 10% service charge goes to the employees
 

Tipping is not a common practice in Taiwan, but many trendy or upscale restaurants add a 10% service charge to the bill, which is typically not shared with employees, but kept by the employers.

 

I will never tip in Japan, not to the bellboy nor even in a very fancy restaurant. In America, every time I am in a restaurant I spend ages trying to work out what I should give. I hate the process. I’d much rather know and have a fixed supplement for staff – or have the price incorporated into the cost of the meal.

As another frustrated tipper writes –
 

"Whenever I object that this system means that almost every transaction you undertake in America is booby-trapped with social awkwardness, I am shouted down."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22846846"

[Rogie]

Probably most people just play along with the kind of tipping culture they grew up with, maybe a few grumbles from time to time but basically anyone querying it'd just get a shrug of the shoulders. However, reading that BBC article I was fascinated to realise America's attitude to tipping has seesawed quite dramatically over time. Plus there's the master/servant, white/black and tip yes/tip no dichotomies.

I don't eat out much but I think if I lived in New York I'd eat in a helluva lot more than dining out. Many restaurant-owners must be laughing all the way to the bank getting away with low wages to their staff but charging similar prices (that's an assumption, I may be wrong) to an equivalent restaurant in a country where the tipping culture is frowned on, eg. Tokyo. Prices at some American eateries such as a steak house seemed quite good value to me and the portions are usually very large, but it is many years since I last visited the States so I have no idea whether they'd still come across as good value to a tourist. Or maybe the restaurant bosses are not laughing in New York, maybe there's some other leveller (local taxes or some other tax on profits) I am not aware of.

I think visitors to Thailand are lucky. I've been shouted down about this in the past when I've quoted the veteran Lonely Planet author Joe Cummings but this is what he writes "Tipping is not generally expected in Thailand . . . At many hotel restaurants or other hi-so eateries, a 10% service charge will be added to your bill. When this is the case, tipping is not expected"  (11th ed, 2005). He says if your restaurant bill comes to 488 baht and you pay with a 500 baht note "some Thais and foreign residents will leave the 12 baht coin change". The implication is that if the meal was 480 baht and the change was a 20 baht note they would keep the change. Even I think that's a bit mean!

[kokopelli]

To not tip in Thailand is penurious.  The extra money from tips can mean a big difference in the life of a Thai person earning 20/30 TB/hour.  Just leaving chump change is unacceptable to me.  I realize that tipping in some countries, such as Australia, is the norm  but  employess there are paid a decent wage.

In the USA tipping is carried too far however. When I dine with friends they tip 20% based on the total bill even including sales taxes. Plus they don't consider the level or quality of the service received. Good service and a cute waiter of course deserves a better tip. 

For those who are not Thai tippers here is something especially for you; can anyone translate the Thai?

 

 

[kokopelli]

PS - The T-shirt cost $27 and made by American Apparel in the USA, where else?

[a447a]

 

I will never tip in Japan

Tipping would be seen as an insult in Japan.  A case of "Do I look as though I need the money?"

[kokopelli]

 

 "Tipping is not generally expected in Thailand . . .

 

On my dining adventures with my Thai bf  he  is insistent that I leave a decent tip especially if the service has been good. And that the tip be put into the hand of the persons providing that service.

[ChristianPFC]

The Thai script on the T-Shirt says "May I get the Thai price, please?"

 

I don't like tipping, if in doubt, I don't tip. When I tip (rarely), only because I think it's expected.

 

Tipping is like right- and left-hand traffic: it doesn't add any value, it just makes things more complicated and opens the door to confusion, bewilderment, under- and overtipping and cheap charlies.

 

(I wrote extensively about tipping on SGT a while ago, but don't remember where exactly so I can't copy or link to there.)

[Guest]

I suppose it's to be expected that American citizens would tend to follow American customs wherever they are.

 

However, tipping is much less common in various other parts of the world & one should not to expect American values to apply to other people in Asia. 

Overall, I would be much happier with the Japanese custom where ultra high quality service is delivered as standard and included in the price.

 

The whole concept of tipping is arbitrary.  People tip the waiter, but don't tip the person who cleans the restaurant, or even sweeps the streets. I bet even in the US, the street sweeper doesn't get tips from grateful customers.

[bkkguy]

To not tip in Thailand is penurious.  The extra money from tips can mean a big difference in the life of a Thai person earning 20/30 TB/hour. 

 

in Thailand the minimum wage everywhere is now Bht 300 per day, for an eight hour day that is Baht 37.5 per hour so help me out here - who is earning 20/30 Baht per hour? and why is it my responsibility as an expat or a tourist to bolster their income above this level when the government and particularly the local population don't seem to think they need to share that burden? Or should the Thai population be forced to adopt some other country's tipping standard? in which case which country? and who should it apply to?

 

As an Australian living in Bangkok when I get on a non-aircon or aircon bus should I have to know the hourly rate the conductor gets paid? and what should I tip? and if I am an American? and if my pension income is $300 per month? and if my business income is $3,000 per month or $3,000 per day? and what about the driver? and the cleaner at the depot?

 

and when I am at 7-11 should I tip the cashier? what about the night cleaner?

 

and while I am tipping the oh so deserving waiter at the restaurant do I also need to find out the hourly rate of the cashier and the kitchen hand and cleaner and decide what to leave for them? I assume the chef is already too well paid to worry about though he/she has probably contributed most to my enjoyment of the meal!

 

when in Rome I will follow the local tipping standards but if you want to try to apply your own arbitrary rules go right ahead but they are not necessarily "right" in the local context and they are not necessarily grounds for calling others "penurious"

 

bkkguy

[kokopelli]

 

 

I don't like tipping, if in doubt, I don't tip. When I tip (rarely), only because I think it's expected.

 

 

 Christian, send me your size and I will get you a CC shirt.

[kokopelli]

I

The whole concept of tipping is arbitrary.  People tip the waiter, but don't tip the person who cleans the restaurant, or even sweeps the streets. I bet even in the US, the street sweeper doesn't get tips from grateful customers.

Actually I do give the trash hauler a Christmas tip.

[kokopelli]

 

As an Australian living in Bangkok

 

What can I say? You are an Australian with a different view point/culture on tipping.  However my comments apply to Thailand, not to Australia. If I were in Oz I would follow your customs. As for me, I tip because I want to not because I have to and don't have a list of excuses for not doing so.

 

As for the minimum wage, it is reassuring that all Tthais are now compensated fairly with a living wage.

[KhorTose]

I suppose it's to be expected that American citizens would tend to follow American customs wherever they are.

Well, I have changed my habits somewhat. In Thailand, I only tip 10% max, where in America it would be 15%-20%. I would never call someone who does not tip in Thailand a cheap Charlie, but I am with KoKo in that I feel the wages are far to low and know what is small money to me, is not to them. Frankly, I enjoy doing it, in the hopes that he might make someone's life happier.

[kokopelli]

The Cheap Charlie T shirt was meant as a joke; I never heard of the expression until coming to Thailand which I found amusing.

[Guest fountainhall]

Thinking back, decades ago my mother used to leave tips for the milkman, newspaper boy and dustbin men (as they were then called) at Christmastime. But I don’t recall tips being left in restaurants in those days – not that we would often go out for meals.

But Christmas is, I reckon, slightly different. It’s a tradition, rather the same as in China when red packets are liberally handed out at the lunar New Year or here in Thailand when some provide cash gifts around Songkran.

As for tipping in general, I am torn. If I buy something, I like to see the price tag so I know the total I am paying. I hate it in the US and a few other countries where a sales tax whose rate I know nothing about is added on at the till. I hate booking a hotel room in New York and find that the $250 quoted rate has suddenly jumped to $300 as a result of four different taxes. Same with airlines. We can't fly without fuel - so why fuel surcharges? It should be built in to the ticket price at the time you buy it.

When I buy a mobile phone, I pay one price. When I buy a shirt, I pay one price. I cannot see that there is any difference with restaurants. If I don’t like the attitude of the salesman, I’ll get my phone/shirt somewhere else. If I don’t like the attitude of the waiter/waitress, I have a right to complain, go elsewhere and/or decide never to return. It’s surely in a restaurant’s best interests to get the best staff possible and keep the clients happy. And that means paying them a decent wage which does not require tips. Especially top-end restaurants.

Now, on the other hand, if the waiter is drop-dead gorgeous, smiles all the time and goes out of his way to make the dining experience especially pleasant, I like to give a tip.     As I said, I am torn!

[Guest]

I also prefer the transparency of all in pricing. 

 

Adding mandatory taxes on afterwards makes no sense at all.

Sometime a couple of decades back, the British government passed a law to require VAT to be quoted in the headline price for any company which sells mainly to non-business customers. That kind of works with hotels & so on, so the pricing is open & transparent.

However, this doesn't seem to include service charges in the small print on restaurant menus, or things like airline taxes which Ryan air add on afterwards.

Being expected to tip falls in the same category.  I figure it would be much better if pricing was all inclusive.

[Guest ryanasia]

Tipping would be seen as an insult in Japan.  A case of "Do I look as though I need the money?"

This is exactly true. The only Japanese that openly welcome tips that I know of are hookers.

[Guest ryanasia]

On my dining adventures with my Thai bf  he  is insistent that I leave a decent tip especially if the service has been good. And that the tip be put into the hand of the persons providing that service.

It is easier to be phillanthopic with somebody elses money. It makes him look pretty magnanimous.

[Guest ryanasia]

I also prefer the transparency of all in pricing. 

 

Adding mandatory taxes on afterwards makes no sense at all.

Sometime a couple of decades back, the British government passed a law to require VAT to be quoted in the headline price for any company which sells mainly to non-business customers. That kind of works with hotels & so on, so the pricing is open & transparent.

However, this doesn't seem to include service charges in the small print on restaurant menus, or things like airline taxes which Ryan air add on afterwards.

Being expected to tip falls in the same category.  I figure it would be much better if pricing was all inclusive.

Sorry guys I should have used the multi-quote feature earlier. Anyway... taxes and surcharges levied by airlines and other businesses are nowhere near being in the same category as tipping. One charge is mandatory and the other is completely voluntary. I will stop reading this thread now or I will find more to quote and won't get to sleep.

[kokopelli]

It is easier to be phillanthopic with somebody elses money. It makes him look pretty magnanimous.

 

Oh, you must know my bf?  He does sometimes ask "I borrow you money" to give a tip.

[Guest Enchanter]

I always round up the small change. Other than that, I only tip if there was something special or notable about the service, and then I tip fairly generously. 

 

Thais don't tip other than to round up the small change or when the service has been extraordinarily good or extra accommodating. It is the same across most Asian countries. I suspect most of the world does not tip, either. 

 

it's illogical to think you should do any different, just because you're wealthy. Middle class and wealthy Thais don't tip either. 

 

To not tip in Thailand is penurious.  The extra money from tips can mean a big difference in the life of a Thai person earning 20/30 TB/hour.  Just leaving chump change is unacceptable to me.  I realize that tipping in some countries, such as Australia, is the norm  but  employess there are paid a decent wage.

In the USA tipping is carried too far however. When I dine with friends they tip 20% based on the total bill even including sales taxes. Plus they don't consider the level or quality of the service received. Good service and a cute waiter of course deserves a better tip. 

For those who are not Thai tippers here is something especially for you; can anyone translate the Thai?

What a thoroughly ignorant attitude. 

 

In America, there's a significant difference between what service industry and other types of employees are paid. That gap is designed to be filled by tips. This is NOT the case in Thailand.

 

The employees who serve you in Thailand are typically paid 5,500-7,000 baht per month, maybe more if it's a high-end establishment. This is the norm for unskilled labour whether for a restaurant or factory. There's no more reason to give a standard percentage tip (i.e. no variance, regardless of service) to a waiter than to the factory worker who printed your shirt. 

 

If they go to university and/or make wise career choices, they might earn 30,000 or more. The sky's the limit. 

However my comments apply to Thailand, not to Australia. If I were in Oz I would follow your customs.

More strange logic. You will follow Australian customs while in Oz but not Thai customs while in Thailand. 

I tip because I want to not because I have to and don't have a list of excuses for not doing so.

 

You're the only one who thinks he's expected to tip or give excuses for not tipping. Almost everyone else around you in Thailand realises tipping simply isn't expected in the first place. 

[Guest fountainhall]

This is exactly true. The only Japanese that openly welcome tips that I know of are hookers.

 

Having worked in Japan, I'm not even sure this is true, with respect. Certainly if you take guys from a host bar, they will turn down an offer of tips. The fee you pay covers all financial obligations. Unless, of course, you regard the set fee as a tip.

 

taxes and surcharges levied by airlines and other businesses are nowhere near being in the same category as tipping. One charge is mandatory and the other is completely voluntary.

 

Totally agree. But on the other hand, it all rather boils down to knowing what your total cost is going to be at the end of the day before you make your mind up - whether that is going to a restaurant or taking a flight, and whether the extra charges are voluntary or mandatory. 

 

To me it is totally false advertising for BA to be promoting return flights to London for as low as something like Bt. 23,000. Get into their site and you then find the extras like fuel, airport charges, government fees and taxes take this up to around Bt. 40,000. KLM, on the other hand, are presently advertising inclusive fares to Europe at fractionally less than Bt. 40,000. Given that KLM will require a plane change, many people will prefer to take the non-stop BA flights. But why can't BA give us an exact price in the advertisements?

 

On the subject of air fares, in my experience only a few sites will give you a breakdown of all the extra charges. Usually they are lumped into one or two categories. But flying through London, to continue the example, now involves so many different types of taxes that I for one would like to know who is getting what. Next month I may have to fly to Chicago for a few days. For a short trip, I will not fly economy and so I'll splash out for business. I have been checking fares. BA quotes a fare for 4 sectors through London that includes "Taxes, fees and other charges per person" of almost Bt. 38,000!! If I go Premium Economy, that part of the ticket is reduced - but only by Bt. 3,510. Going trans-Pacific on Cathay Pacific, these charges are around half those of BA. Oddly, the total cost of Cathay's web bookable ticket works out not much cheaper. But I would like to know exactly who gets that Bt. 38,000 if I were to choose to go BA.

 

And I should add - unless you are an Elite member of the BA Club or travel on the more expensive J or C business class tickets, those extra charges are before you pay BA the sum of between £60 - £72 per sector to reserve in advance a specific  seat - unless you want the upper deck when the charges rise to £96 per sector (i.e. the lower cost D and I business class tickets must pay yet more charges)!! That I know goes directly to BA's coffers!!

[kokopelli]

In USA the airlines now give a lump sum cost for the ticket; this is a recent change due to Federal law.

[Bob]

In USA the airlines now give a lump sum cost for the ticket; this is a recent change due to Federal law.

Generally true; however, then there's usually a charge for each piece of checked luggage, a charge for one of the better (more legroom) economy seats, a charge for meals/food/drinks, etc.  And one airline is talking about charging for using the friggin' bathroom (and I'm not sure if that will be based on a price per use, a price per tonnage on the toilet seat, time used, or deposits made....hehe). 

[kokopelli]

Easy way to avoid all those incidental charges is fly First Class and Business Class.