Smugglers drive Thailand's grim trade in dog meat

[TotallyOz]

My heart broke reading this on CNN today.

 

CNN:

 

Packed tight into wire baskets -- sometimes 20 or more to a cage -- animal rights activists say as many as 200,000 live dogs every year are smuggled from northeast Thailand across the Mekong River destined for restaurants in Vietnam.

 

Dehydrated, stressed, some even dying of suffocation on the trip, the dogs are often stacked 1,000 to a truck on a journey that lasts for days.

 

"Obviously when you've got dogs stacked on top of each other they start biting each other because they are so uncomfortable, any kind of movement then the dog next to the one that's being crushed is going to bite back," said Tuan Bendixsen, director of Animals Asia Foundation Vietnam, a Hanoi-based animal welfare group.

 

When they arrive in Vietnam, the suffering doesn't end there. A common belief is that stress and fear releases hormones that improve the taste of the meat, so the dogs are placed in stress cages that restrict their movement.

 

Eventually, the dogs are either bludgeoned to death or have their throats cut in front of other dogs who are awaiting the same fate. In some cases, they've been known to be skinned alive.

 

"Dogs are highly intelligent animals so if you kill a dog and you have a whole cage of dogs next to the one that's being killed, those dogs that are going to be killed next know what's going on," Bendixsen said.

 

According to animal rights groups, dog smugglers round up everything from family pets to Thailand's ubiquitous strays -- known as soi dogs -- to sell the animals in Vietnam, or even as far away as China where a pedigree dog can fetch a premium price.

 

John Dalley of the Phuket-based Soi Dog Foundation estimates 98% of the dogs are domesticated and that some are even still wearing collars and have been trained and respond to commands.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/02/world/asia/thailand-dogs/?iref=obnetwork

[Guest]

Morally this is no different to shipping sheep, cows or goats. 

 

Except wild dogs are sometimes aggressive & threatening, so it wouldn't be such a bad thing if the Vietnamese meat traders could start rounding up some of the dogs in Pattaya.

 

I don't eat any meat, however if I ate sheep, I would see nothing wrong with eating dog.

[TotallyOz]

I don't eat any meat, however if I ate sheep, I would see nothing wrong with eating dog.

Really? You see no difference in eating an animal that is smart and can be trained to help the blind, etc and eating a farm animal?

 

So, I guess it would be OK to also eat chimpanzees?

[Bob]

Michael, is it okay to eat a sheep?  And still okay to eat it if you've raised it as a pet from birth? 

 

And, presuming that either the number of chimpanzees was adequate to allow humans to eat them (meaning that doing so wouldn't cause the chimpanzee population to collapse) or that somebody specifically farm-raised them for food, then what's the moral dilemma of chowing down on Cheetah? Because it's cute or because it's somewhat smarter than a cow?

 

Sometimes we have pretty strong prejudices regarding what we find acceptable to eat based on our own cultures.  The Americans and English, for example, pretty much gag at notion of the French or others eating horse. But I'm not sure that's all fair.  There are some societies who've eaten dog for ages and, while I personally would never cross that line, I can't see how any of us can condemn them for it. Unless, of course, it happens to be our pet Fluffy....

 

I'm just curious as to your thinking and I'm not arguing that anybody ought to eat their pets, leader dogs, or endangered animals. 

[kokopelli]

Athough dogs, sheep, cattle are all animals it does seem that there is a much stronger bond between humans and dogs. The situation here is the dreadful conditons these dogs are suject to plus the means of their slaughter.  It would be much better for Thai authorities to neuter all strays which would eventually eliminate the supply side of the dog trade.

[TotallyOz]

Michael, is it okay to eat a sheep?  And still okay to eat it if you've raised it as a pet from birth?

I grew up on a farm. We raised cows, pigs, chickens, ducks, geese, etc. We feed them, cared for them and then we ate them. As a child it seemed normal to me but we also had pets that were part of our lives (dogs) that we would never dream of eating.

 

I grew up in a dog family. We always had them in our lives and more than once, a dog has saved a member of my family from harm. I never had any other of those animals save us.

[Guest fountainhall]

I remember as a student on my first visit to the South of France being told that we were to be served horse meat. It tasted OK as far as I recall and it didn't concern me in the slightest. When I moved to Hong Kong, it was known that dog meat was popular in many parts of Guangdong Province across the border. That also didn't concern me, and like Michael I was brought up in a family which always had a dog around. SInce then I have eaten a variety of 'things' I would never have dreamed of going near as a child. Snake soup is now one of my favourites!

 

But I agree with kokopelli and the condition in which these dogs are kept disturbs me.

[ChristianPFC]

I think I could eat everything that looks and smells acceptable (including dogs, cats, snakes), as long as it is raised and killed by animal right standards and if someone else eats it.

[KhorTose]

I think I could eat everything that looks and smells acceptable (including dogs, cats, snakes), as long as it is raised and killed by animal right standards and if someone else eats it.

I think you are right  many of these different meats, including alligator, are often said to taste like chicken.  So close your eyes, and hope the fur has been removed, and enjoy.

[Guest fountainhall]

Curious. Snake tastes rather like spicy chicken!!

[firecat69]

Does anyone not see the difference between raising an animal for consumption (whatever it may be) and rounding up animals in another country some of which I am sure were pets and smuggling them across the border for a horrible death and then consumption.

[Guest jomtien]

My seeing-eye sheep takes great offence at this entire topic.

[Guest]

 

Really? You see no difference in eating an animal that is smart and can be trained to help the blind, etc and eating a farm animal?

 

So, I guess it would be OK to also eat chimpanzees?

OK, so you expect we should discriminate on the basis of the intelligence of an animal ?  

 

You're also making the presumption the sheep is less intelligent than the dog and would not be capable of taking training in the same way as the dog. That assumption is incorrect. Cambridge University found sheep can easily be trained and have a much higher level of intelligence than previously thought, on par with a slow monkey.  So intelligence is not the reason to justify such discrimination.

 

Maybe you might eat sheep, cows & pigs.

Perhaps you would not eat horse, snails or dogs, but these are deemed to be perfectly acceptable in other countries.

Moslems & Jews might not think much about pork consumption.

 

Perhaps it is more about religion and values imposed during your upbringing that drive such thoughts?

 

I suggest you might like to question the moral basis for discriminating between different animals in such away, just on the basis of traditional western values (which are often linked to religion).  After all, if people did not question traditional values in other areas, we might just have had no gains for gay rights in the last 40 years.

 

As for eating Chimpanzees? Well, morally I would place them on the same level as sheep. I choose to eat neither. 

However, if there were no health risk, I do think it is any worse for a Chinese person to consume monkey than it is for an America to consume a big mac. In practice, I suspect there may be some kind of health risks from eating monkeys.

 

This doesn't stop gorillas hunting and eating monkeys either.

 

I too was bought up on a farm. Perhaps I just developed more respect for diversity. 

If you carnivores think it's OK to eat sheep, you don't really have any defensible moral basis for telling the citizens of  Vietnam, Korea & China that they should not eat dog. Such discrimination is close to the kind of thinking that makes some people think heterosexual is OK and homosexual is not.

[Rogie]

Not knowing much about the dog meat trade, although I have heard of the great work the Phuket Soi Dog Foundation are doing, I made the assumption that the trade between Thailand and Vietnam was to 'cut corners', in other words to provide fully-grown dogs to satisfy Vietnamese demand. I reasoned that this would get round the problem of breeding the dogs and raising them from puppies to adults. That is clearly the case in many instances. The proximity of Thailand and Vietnam facilitates this, whereas other countries such as China and South Korea are more distant. That set me wondering how S.Korea caters for those of its citizens who enjoy nothing more than a good dog dinner. I was shocked and sickened to discover the answer . . .

 

Please take a deep breath before viewing this:

 

http://imgur.com/a/5fCTu#bOrrw9M

[Rogie]

If you carnivores think it's OK to eat sheep, you don't really have any defensible moral basis for telling the citizens of  Vietnam, Korea & China that they should not eat dog. Such discrimination is close to the kind of thinking that makes some people think heterosexual is OK and homosexual is not.

 

 

Sorry Z, I joined the discussion late so overlooked your comments.

 

As a meat eater I have to tread cautiously. I don't want my cultural heritage to blind me to the way things are done in other countries. That's their business, so I am certainly not in the vanguard urging Vietnamese, Chinese or Korean people to stop eating dogmeat. I am not a vociferous person, neither am I a campaigner (other than within the confines of this message board) but if I had the guts to go out and do something it would be to urge consumers of dog meat  to boycott the kind of battery farming shown in the link I gave in the previous post.

 

As regards your comparison of what people prefer to eat with a man's sexuality, I think that's taking it too far. Of course we'd all agree discrimination based on sexuality is wrong, but I am sorry I would have no hesitation in pointing an accusing finger to a person tucking into his 'farmed' dog caserole whilst happily munching on my organic free-range chicken-burger.

[Guest]

As regards your comparison of what people prefer to eat with a man's sexuality, I think that's taking it too far.

 

I'm comparing 2 cases of totally arbitrary discrimination.  I believe that's reasonable. 

 

You must see the analogy?

 

Vietnamese eats lamb = OK;   Vietnamese eats dog =Not OK

Vietnamese heterosexual sex = OK;   Vietnamese gay sex = Not OK

 

Spot the similarity.  In both cases the Vietnamese guy should not be expected to conform to the arbitrary old style Western values.

[KhorTose]

Christians eat Pork = Ok                                                           Jews do not eat pork=not okay

Westeners do not eat bugs=OK                                                Asians and some Africans east bugs = not okay

Thais do not eat dogs==Okay                                                   Vietnamese eat dogs = not okay

Christians today do not engage in Holy wars =Okay                  Moslims practice holy war=not okay

 

BUT:

Christians used to practice Holy war, even on their fellow Christians.  People in the West have eaten dog and rat when times are tough.  Just look at WWII.  The Swiss still eat dog meat.  Thais do not eat dog because it is unclean but have no problem with bugs, and many Jews are now eating pork.

 

You are judging one culture by another and determining that your (Western culture) is best.  While I happen to agree with you that it is okay to condemn that other culture for the differences that cause human suffering, you are using your Western outlook to judge what is truly superficial.  Yes, human rights should be Universal, but what foods we eat, what religion we belong too, what practices we engage in that do not cause direct human suffering. are none of our business.   Sorry Z, you are one of my favorite posters, but that sounds a little bit arrogant of you.

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

http://www.veganpeace.com/animal_facts/Pigs.htm

 

Anyone feel like giving up pork?

 

And before any trolls (friendly or otherwise) jump on me, I'll eat anything that's been treated and killed humanely so I am with the OP on not eating dogs that have been treated so cruelly before and/or while being killed.

 

[Guest]

Yes, human rights should be Universal, but what foods we eat, what religion we belong too, what practices we engage in that do not cause direct human suffering. are none of our business.  

That's the point I'm trying to make. Eating dog is no different to eating sheep.  It's just one more arbitrary piece of discrimination.

 

As for the transport, sheep hardly get trucked around in business class either. Whilst some decent standards should prevail, I doubt there is much difference in the way sheep & dogs get treated.

[Rogie]

 

As for the transport, sheep hardly get trucked around in business class either. Whilst some decent standards should prevail, I doubt there is much difference in the way sheep & dogs get treated.

 

I'm sure sheep are crammed into the truck too, but surely they don't have this to contend with.

 

Dehydrated, stressed, some even dying of suffocation on the trip, the dogs are often stacked 1,000 to a truck on a journey that lasts for days.

 

"Obviously when you've got dogs stacked on top of each other they start biting each other because they are so uncomfortable, any kind of movement then the dog next to the one that's being crushed is going to bite back," said Tuan Bendixsen, director of Animals Asia Foundation Vietnam, a Hanoi-based animal welfare group.

 

 

So according to the quote above (which is from the CNN report, not Michael) the dogs are stacked 1,000 to a truck. It would be great to think that somewhere along the journey which 'lasts for days' the vehicle would get stopped and the driver arrested. But of course I am sleepwalking if I really think that might happen. I am reminded of the recent case of the trailer which caught fire on the way to Khon Kaen. Normally that would never make the headlines, however in this case the trailer was carrying six luxury cars; if I recall a couple of Lamborghinis + a Ferrari or two, etc, maybe the odd BMW. The fire spread from the trailer to the cars and four of them caught fire and were destroyed. It seems there is a thriving trade in Thailand where cars are imported in such a way as to dodge taxes. This trade must have been going on for a long time but only came to light because of a freak accident. Sometimes i think that people in Thailand must go around with their eyes closed. Well, the eyes look like they're open all right, but they are so often of the 'unseeing' variety.

[Guest fountainhall]

Sometimes i think that people in Thailand must go around with their eyes closed

 

Of course they do! How else can they visualise all those gazillions of Baht they are screwing out of somone?

[Rogie]

. . . gazillions of Baht  . . .

 

Maybe they're dreaming.

 

One thinks of the phrase Beyond the Dreams of Avarice.

 

(Sorry, definitely off-topic, but I came across this link to Hermann Goering)

 

http://www.goeringart.com/

[kokopelli]

Somewhat recently there was a news article of a truck load of dogs being intercepted by the police while on its way toward the border.   End result was most of the dogs died anyway since no one could or would care for them.  Only way to stop the trade is neuter strays or euthanize them.  As for Fluffy, Ginger, Queenie, their owners better keep them in a secure environment.

 

Some people/organizations try to help such as Tonys Shelter but inadequte facilites.

 

http://www.carefordogs.org/its-a-shame-tonys-shelter-in-pattaya/

[Guest]

If the dogs were handled in a humane way, shipping them to Vietnamese dinner pates would in every respect be an excellent & self funded way of dealing with the wild dog problem. 

[kokopelli]

Forget dog meat try a nice tender bunny!