Non-offable boys

[ChristianPFC]

Non-offable boys

 

As if I hadn’t had enough trouble and deception and disappointment in finding sex (I’m not even talking about love!) in Thailand, now I became a victim of the “non-offable boy” as well.

 

Saturday 18.05.2013

 

After having sat at Hotmale bar (water, 40 Baht) for two hours and observing the passing traffic, I stroll through Soi Twilight and there he is, the boy of my dreams at Scorpion Bar! He even smiles at me and invites me to the bar. I ponder if I should go eat first but it is starting to rain, so I enter. Another boy sits next to me and asks if I would like a massage (neck and shoulder), I agree. After massage, he asks for 100 Baht tip, which I give him. Should he have mentioned that the massage is not for free or should I have asked if the massage is for free? But that’s not my point.

 

I ask him to call over the cute boy and offer him (the cute boy) a drink. The cute boy does not speak English, so I try in Thai, only to learn that he is Vietnamese. Communication was impossible, I tried in English and Thai, he didn’t understand anything I said and I only understood “mai ruu”, so everything reported furthers is translated by staff (it seems he understands their Thai).

 

He is 18 years old (but could be underage, I should have had my request to see the passport translated, so I could be sure about age and know how long and how often he has been in Thailand). After fruitless attempts at conversation, I ask to off him. I won’t let language problems between us.

 

Staff member one says he cannot go off because he is new boy, only drinking and talking (if you speak Vietnamese!).

 

There is a slight probability that the Vietnamese boy I had in Fresh Boys last year badmouthed me because we had a very unpleasant negotiation of his tip (he wanted 2000 for short time, I finally shoved him out of my hotel room with 1600) and this message spread via other boys to this boy.

 

I don’t give up, wait until another staff member walks past and ask again. Same answer. Finally, they call the owner. He is Thai, but lives in Paris most of the time (he is fluent in Thai, English and French as far as I can judge and has local knowledge of Paris, so I believe him that he speaks Chinese and Vietnamese as well). The cute boy is family (whatever that means) and cannot go off at all, not now and not later. He has been working there for almost a month (didn’t notice him before, should have asked to see his passport!) and returns to Vietnam every 30 days to get a new visa.

 

Now I wonder: how does he earn money if he can’t be offed? I even wonder how other Vietnamese boys who can be offed, but have to do a visa run every 30 days, can come out with a positive balance (even if they get 2000 for short time).

 

I pay for our drinks (orange juice, 100 Baht each), no tip for waiter, no tip for boy. I don’t go to bars to drink or to chat with boys (if I could speak Vietnamese), I go to off!

 

I should have told the owner that I feel deceived.

 

After four years of whoring around in Thailand, I became slightly jaded, so the moments are rare that I see a boy and within milliseconds I know “this one and nobody else for tonight!”. This is the second time it happened this year.

 

 

[firecat69]

I made it pretty clear on Gaybutton how I feel but just to get this thread off to a good start. I fail to see how you were deceived.  This is not a GoGo Bar.  The boy is a waiter and if the Bar allows and the Boy wants to go off then it is up to him. The customer does not own the Boy for a 100 baht drink. 

 

 

I am pretty sure I know this boy because I met him just before Songkran started about the 12th of April when I was at the end of my trip. He is striking and has a bubbling personality although limited language skills. There was a boy working with him that I know for a long time and he told me that boy was 3 or 4 months away from 18. I think there was a mention of him going home in a few months for new visa and when he returned he might be available.

So very simple Bar will take a chance of getting in trouble for having underaged worker but will not take chance for under age off which means SEX. Probably have an agreement with BIB that allow them to be comfortable with letting the Boy attract customers until such time as he is legal.

I fail to see any problem here . I bought the boy a drink and tipped him even when I was informed he could not go off.. BIG Deal . The drinks were 110 baht which means even with the tip I barely exceeded the price of 1 drink at a GoGo Bar in Soi Twilight. And I quite enjoyed myself. Ridiculous to complain because he would not go home with you. Many of the discos have Coyote Dancers that will not leave but they will be happy to share your bottle etc. 

Many of the Boys in Sunee at Beer Bars are not required to go off with a customer. Up to them as it should be. These boys are not pieces of meat to be bought and sold and anyone who thinks that way is a very sad individual.

I am not saying this is how Christian thinks but certainly there have been some comments on other Boards that make me wonder how some individuals view the Boys who give many of us so much pleasure.

[TotallyOz]

I am a bit surprised at this as well as most if not all the boys on Soi Twilight are offable.

 

That being said, there was a massage place there a few years back that had boys working that were not allowed to go off with customers. They could work on premises only. I thought this odd so I inquired from a few friends and was told that they are not boys from Thailand and the mamasan holds their passport hostage until they pay a certain amount of money and if the boys go off they sometimes don't come back.

 

Your statement that the boy was from Vietnam brought this back to my memory. I hope that is not the case with this lad but it has been the case with other bars/massage places in the past.

[Bob]

The first waiter you ask tells you the boy isn't offable.  And the second waiter tells you the same thing. And then the owner confirms what the first two guys said. And you feel "deceived?"  I'm at a bit of a loss how you make that leap.

 

I've known a few guys in various gay establishments that aren't offable and, while I've felt maybe a little disappointed when it involved a stunner, I hardly can claim to be deceived.  Not only are some boys not in fact offable - due to their job requirements or personal circumstances - but (this may come as a shock to some) they often have the right to say they do or don't want to do something.

[Guest fountainhall]

He is 18 years old (but could be underage . . . 

 

Isn't that one possible reason? If he is underage, then it would be madness for that bar to allow him to be offed.

[Gaybutton]

the mamasan holds their passport hostage until they pay a certain amount of money and if the boys go off they sometimes don't come back.

 

That brings up a whole new issue.  I read and hear far too many times about indentured servitude and slavery in Asia, and that does include Thailand.  Some of the fishing boats, for example, are notorious for virtually shanghai-ing a crew, forcing them to work, sometimes for months, with little or no pay at all, kept in the most appalling conditions, and if they cannot, or will not, work any more due to lack of decent food, water, illness, and exhaustion, they're tossed overboard to drown.

 

If any bars are engaging in indentured servitude by finding ways to force the boys to remain on premises until a debt is paid off, in my opinion that is as reprehensible as it gets.  If I know a bar is doing that, I would never go to that bar again.  I am aware that some bars pay for foreign boys to come to Thailand to work.  I am also aware that even Thai boys have been known to work in the bars when their parents got into debt and an agreement was reached for the bar to pay off the debt on the basis the boy would work in the bar until the bar had recovered the money - and then some.  It seems to happen to girls more often than it happens to boys.

 

They'll prey on the most rural, uneducated, poverty stricken people they can find - right up there with politicians buying votes in return for a big sack of rice.  I don't know how often this sort of thing occurs, but I do know it does occur.  Maybe that sort of thing is acceptable in some Asian cultures, but that doesn't mean it has to be acceptable to me.  And it isn't.

[fedssocr]

Maybe he makes money by bringing in unsuspecting guys who like cute Vietnamese boys? Perhaps his job is to lure you in so you'll buy drinks for him or others. The boys usually get a cut of the drinks you buy for them. 

 

I agree I don't see where the deception is. You asked if he could go off and were told no multiple times. If he's Vietnamese it's likely that he isn't allowed to work. So maybe they can keep him in the bar but its too risky to them to let him go off.

[Gaybutton]

maybe they can keep him in the bar but its too risky to them to let him go off.

 

Have times changed?  I almost never take boys off from bars anymore, so perhaps I'm behind the times.  Until now I've never heard of a bar preventing boys from being taken off due to their nationality or their age.  Lao and Cambodian boys work in the bars and they're taken off regularly.  I see that for myself constantly. 

 

Until now, I've never heard of bars refusing to let under-age boys be taken off unless they are very under-age.  That's why we've had so many posts over the years advising people to make sure to check a boy's ID card to make sure of his age.

 

Has something changed right under my nose and I've missed it?

[TotallyOz]

Has something changed right under my nose and I've missed it?

Yes, in some of the bars in Bangkok that have underage they want you to see the boy on the premises and not take them to your apartment or hotel. I think the reason for this is many of the hotels do check ID's in Bangkok more so than in Pattaya. I have seen this in the little massage places there as well. When they tell me boy can't go to my place and must go upstairs, that ends the conversation for me.

[Gaybutton]

that ends the conversation for me.

 

It would also end my presence in their establishment - permanently.

[Guest Devint6669]

I agree with firecat, Michael, there is so many in this place that if you find a boy that say he can not go there mosby a reason and must respected as simple as that.... I remember before what i did this job if i had a man that was to much pushy, or did not believe me or try say that he was deceive by me i take it very personal....

 

This mean if some one say no, it mean don't try to ask again because he does have a reason

[pong]

ach du lieber Christian- es ist ja ein graues und regnerisches Pfingsten hier, that tyou do not have overthere. The idea of ''bait'' boys is very common, both in bars and massageshops. They only do advertising.

[Guest finally]

There are several reasons, why this boy was not offable as other posters have mentioned and I agree with most of them but I do not think that he did not "go out " because he was underage or Vietnamese. I have hardly visited bars for some years (ridiculously overpriced drinks , poor performances...etc.) but for any reason I went to Fresh B. Boys bar last September and had a very nice..cough..encounter with a Vietnamese. At this time there were several V. working at this bar. Last March I was in BKK for a few days again and paid a visit to this bar. I saw then a V. who looked EXACTLY the way Ch. describes him . I invited him for a drink. He did not speak one word English just a few words Thai....but I speak Vietnamese. I started to chat with him and could see how the mamasan became more and more uncomfortable. The boy said he would turn 18 in August and had worked at this place last summer for the first time. The mamasan did not even try to deny this and offered a room near the bar. I refused and even shouted at him...I lost face but... to be honest... I gave a sh.t on it. I know from first hand that other bars in Soi T. have underage workers as well, especially those from other countries but don t want to mention their names.. The boy I met last year told me how it works. He was a gay student in Hanoi who had a friend who already worked at FBB . Vietnamese are allowed to go to Thailand for 30 days, then they must leave for 45 days before going back for "work". He showed me his pass port to prove this. He lived together with 4 other boys in 1 room (3000 Baht a month for all of them), he was the only one who spoke Thai (fluently) and English "nit noi". Considering the costs of travelling,rent, food etc. he would come back to Vietnam with 8000B in his pockets. So I think the real reason for not "going out" was not his age but his "relationship" to the bar owner. It is also possible that he was "reserved" for "special customers" who are ready to pay a "special price" and don t care about his age. I will find it out in September and report (lol)

[ChristianPFC]

The first waiter you ask tells you the boy isn't offable.  And the second waiter tells you the same thing. And then the owner confirms what the first two guys said. And you feel "deceived?"  I'm at a bit of a loss how you make that leap.

 

When I go to a gogo or beer bar, I assume everyone working there (as a gogo or beer bar boy) is offable, and experience has shown that even waiter and doormen can be are offable.

 

Finding a boy who meets my standards is a long, difficult and expensive (depending on how many drinks I have to buy) process, so if I find one and can't off him, I am rightfully pissed off.

 

If the boy had told me can't go, I would have left it at that (and thought he doesn't want to go with me, I can accept that), but from staff and finally owner (who just happened to be present, I didn't ask to speak to him) I thought I might get a reason.

 

I was expecting the usual bullshit: forgot passport (they did not ask where I stay, so they could not conclude that ID will be checked) to exorbitant off-fees or tip expectations (would have been fine for, I would have said "too expensive" and left him).

 

On the subject of un-offable coyote boys in Pattaya, I read somewhere they just need 20 coyote drinks per night, so if you buy them these 20 coyote drinks, you can take them home (if they want to go with you).

[ChristianPFC]

Not only are some boys not in fact offable - due to their job requirements or personal circumstances - but (this may come as a shock to some) they often have the right to say they do or don't want to do something.

 

This is the first non-offable boy I encounterd and this would be the first one who didn't want to go with me. I can accept that, and now I see that the only way to let me know that is to wait until I invite him for a drink and ask to off him.

 

Isn't the bar the most dangerous place for a boy who is underage and/or doesn't have a visa or work permit? If he is in the bar during a raid, they will catch him. If he is with a customer during a raid, they won't catch him.

[kokopelli]

Same as some other posters, I see no dilemma or contradiction  where a worker in a bar is not offable. 

I recall a well known beer bar in Sunee Plaza/Pattaya where one of the waiters was off limits by his own choice and he was attractive plus an excellent waiter.  Knowing that, I never broached the subject to him or even hinted  sexual interest other than buying him a drink and sitting and tipping him since I enjoyed his company when business was slow.  Then one night he asked if I would like a massage........!

[Guest scottishguy]

And....And....And....

 

[kokopelli]

Hot ... Hot.... Hot  Massage.

[Guest ryanasia]

"When I go to a gogo or beer bar, I assume everyone working there (as a gogo or beer bar boy) is offable, and experience has shown that even waiter and doormen can be are offable."

 

 

Perhaps this is just a bit more than a tad pressumtious on your part. You sound like a irrate plantation owner at an auction here.

 

 

"Finding a boy who meets my standards is a long, difficult and expensive (depending on how many drinks I have to buy) process, so if I find one and can't off him, I am rightfully pissed off."

 

 

You really have no right to be pissed off at anything. It isn't the bar's fault you are a fussy eater. Buying a few drinks may or may not be expensive and certainly doesn't constitute any sort of contract in regards to a sexual encounter later. I have been dissapointed when I bought drinks and ended up empty handed but such is life. i just went to another place. 

 

 

"If the boy had told me can't go, I would have left it at that (and thought he doesn't want to go with me, I can accept that), but from staff and finally owner (who just happened to be present, I didn't ask to speak to him) I thought I might get a reason."

 

 

As you mentioned the boy spoke no english or thai but you somehow expect him to be able to explain this to you? Maybe the boy who seemingly could understand their thai but yours did this to save face. Who knows?

 

 

So, when the communication broke down and you asked on three occasions and the staff may have have been acting on his behalf in their answers to you. Aside from this it doesn't matter what his wishes were if he is employed there. Like it or not he is their employee and has agreed to work there under whatever policies they deem fit.

 

"I was expecting the usual bullshit: forgot passport (they did not ask where I stay, so they could not conclude that ID will be checked) to exorbitant off-fees or tip expectations (would have been fine for, I would have said "too expensive" and left him)."

 

Why should they be obligated to make any excuses? No means no. 

[Guest Enchanter]

This attitude of entitlement is abhorrent. Why does this scene seem to erode people's basic human decency? 

 

I can't believe you feel entitled to have sex with anyone you see in these bars. As if it's a right that is being breached if someone says no to you. 

 

Finding a boy who meets my standards is a long, difficult and expensive (depending on how many drinks I have to buy) process, so if I find one and can't off him, I am rightfully pissed off.

Have you ever tried to meet someone else's standards?!

[Nikom]

There is another reason that a boy may not be 'offable'.  I know one bar in Boys Town where the farang owner likes to show off his "new boy" but the boy can not be taken off until the owner is finished.......

[Guest fountainhall]

Lots of reasons have been given for the boy not agreeing to be offed. And let's face, it could have been any one or more of them. As I suggested earlier, in view of Christian's original comment that he might have been under 18, my own suspicions are that this was the reason.

 

I remember in the early days of Solid bar, they had a very cute waiter. He dressed in jeans and a shirt, whereas the gogo boys were in their briefs. The mamasan had told me that several customers wanted to off him - but that was not permitted. I only realised why some weeks later when there was a birthday party and it was this boy's birthday. I asked him if he was now 19. No, he said, I'm 17 today!!

[ChristianPFC]

Update from my last visit in Soi Twilight (Monday 03.06.2013), with a Thai friend (who worked in Sunee as a waiter for years, but now changed profession to chef in Bangkok, because Sunee became boring!). We had a drink in Scorpion bar from 00:00 to 1:30.

 

Vietnamese boy still working there, with new haircut less attractive (anyway, if there are any difficulties, I quickly lose interest, it's a miracle that this infatuation lasted that long). There will be no happy end, it will just peter out.

 

I saw him massaging and touching and chatting with another customer (should have asked the customer in which language they talked!), later I saw him washing glasses in the sink.

 

When we left, I asked the bartender if all boys are Thai. He confirmed (either a lie or bad memory). I then asked if all boys can go with customer. "Most boys can off, some cannot off, this one cannot" (pointing to the Vietnamese boy who was standing next to us).

 

But there is blonde boy in Scorpion who appears more and more attractive to me.

 

Regarding the underage. That has never been a problem in my limited experience. I had mamasans pointing out to me "Do you want him? He 17!".

 

I have been googling in vain for a picture of a sale of paintings to illustrate my point. There is a corridor with paintings, people stay in front of the and look and discuss, and one painting has a big red ribbon with white script "SOLD". All other paintings are still for sale, this one has been sold and the buyer just didn't take is with him immediately. You see this picture, find it nice, but you are too late. Now without this ribbon, you stand in front, find the price ok, marvel at how it will look in your room, aks to buy and someone tells you "sorry, sold already".

 

During the hours when sale of alcohol is prohibited in Thailand, staff at 7-11 lock the places where alcohol is kept, and there is a note. You don't have to put it in your shopping basket and go to the till to be told "sorry, cannot".

[kokopelli]

 There will be no happy end, it will just peter out.

 

 

 

 

 

If that was a pun, Christian, it was a good one.

[williewillie]

Last night some farangs were chatting in Sunee Plaza and

one related a recent episode at Double Shot, also in

Sunee. He had a drink with a host boy

and when he asked the boy to go with him, the host boy said "cannot".

This didn't sit well with farang and

several of us offered possible explanations.

Are the boys offable at Double shot?