Afterlife and Death

[TotallyOz]

It is so interesting the discussion of the dead and the peace and their soul etc.

 

I guess I am one of those that just believe when you are dead you are dead. There is just nothing after that.

 

Do others follow philosophy that there is an afterlife? Or, like Buddhists a reincarnation?

 

What are your views on death?

 

Also, I have said for years that if I were to get an illness that was going to take my life that I would take my own life when I wanted and on the occasion I wanted. I have no desire to die in a hospital or in any place that I can't full take care of myself. I guess I just prefer to go out on my own time. Do others feel the same about this or differently?

[Guest luvthai]

I hope when my time comes I have the courage to take a pill and go out with a little dignity left.  The thought of not being able to care for myself is worse than eternal sleep.

[Guest scottishguy]

It's not always a matter of having the courage or the resolve to "end it all" when your condition becomes pretty hopeless  - often by that stage you don't have the capacity or the means.

[kokopelli]

What are your views on death?

 

Also, I have said for years that if I were to get an illness that was going to take my life that I would take my own life when I wanted and on the occasion I wanted. I have no desire to die in a hospital or in any place that I can't full take care of myself. I guess I just prefer to go out on my own time. Do others feel the same about this or differently?

Same as you Michael; you live just once and are dead forever.

 

Although I would not choose to commit suicide just to avoid dying I would choose assistance to end it all if suffering pain or in a vegetative state.

 

However, speaking of suicide, you previously wrote the following:

 

 

"I also think unfair to compare someone who killed themselves to someone who died of cancer. I guess I have so much more sympathy for those that die of cancer based on many family members who I cared for in the end of their life with the same problem. So, yes, I am biased as well in that."

 

So what do you do if someone is suffering from the pain of cancer and commits suicide? Show sympathy or disdain?

[TotallyOz]

However, speaking of suicide, you previously wrote the following:

 

 

"I also think unfair to compare someone who killed themselves to someone who died of cancer. I guess I have so much more sympathy for those that die of cancer based on many family members who I cared for in the end of their life with the same problem. So, yes, I am biased as well in that."

 

So what do you do if someone is suffering from the pain of cancer and commits suicide? Show sympathy or disdain?

Oh my. I did not mean to say that I disdained someone that commits suicide. I do not. I just believe that they made that choice themselves and that is a right they have. It is a choice I respect and have no problem with anyone making that choice. But, I do believe it is a choice.

 

If someone has cancer and commits suicide then they made that choice didn't they? Again, I have no problem with that at all and I would completely understand that choice.

 

I am watching this season of The Big C. I have watched every season. If you watch this show and have not seen this weeks episode, SPOILER ALERT

 

The main character decides that she wants to live life without chemo or radiation and enjoy what time she has left in a dignified manner. Having been the caregiver of many who have died of cancer, this is something I completely understand and something I may even choose for myself when the time comes. But, I hope I can always make decisions about my body and my life and my death. Many do not have that choice. Some do and I envy those people and I do not hold them in contempt.

[kokopelli]

Michael, it seems to me that your viewpoint is somewhat contradictory. You have greater sympathy for someone who suffers and dies of cancer rather than one who commits suicide. Yet, for yourself, you advocate suicide rather than dying in a hospital or other place not of our choosing and you want to do it on your own terms.

 

For me, the death of a loved one or friend or acquaintance deserves the same degree of grief and sympathy regardless of the manner of their death.

[TotallyOz]

Michael, it seems to me that your viewpoint is somewhat contradictory. You have greater sympathy for someone who suffers and dies of cancer rather than one who commits suicide.

Yes, I do have more sympathy for someone who dies of cancer than I have for one who made a decision to end their life on their own terms. You are right, that is what I believe.

 

I did not say that the friends and family of both individuals did not suffer the same. Death is hard to deal with in ANY situation. Young, old, rich, poor it doesn't matter. The family will suffer no matter the way someone dies. I do think that families of those that commit suicide have a lot more going on in their minds thinking about "could I have done something" "should I have spent more time with them." etc.

 

But, sorry for the individual person who dies, I do have more sympathy for someone who dies of cancer than someone who takes their own life. That may make me a prick to some but it is the way I feel.

[Guest Kittyboy]

IMHO - In some parts of the west there seems to be this idea that a person is a hero and more noble if they fight against a terminal disease. They engage in a heroic struggle and those who fight the good fight are more noble than those people who just give up.

 

IMHO that view is a load of crap.

Many cancer treatments for end stage cancer give a person a week or two at best of additional life. However, the person is tethered to chemo machines, undergoes invasive procedures, has their mental and physical abilities further compromised by the healthcare procedures, For some in the west that makes a person a hero and more noble.

 

To me a hero is the terminally ill person that makes a choice to live what little life with their family and friends celebrating what time they have left. Not spending futile time in the hospital accelerating the decline of their mental and physical abilities so they can have an extra day or two on the planet.

 

If a person wants to end their suffering early through suicide that is no less or more noble than a futile struggle against a terminal illness.

[TotallyOz]

If a person wants to end their suffering early through suicide that is no less or more noble than a futile struggle against a terminal illness.

I totally agree.

[firecat69]

I also totally agree .

 

These kind of decisions are very personal and usually are made in an environment of religious teachings or not?

 

I find most Gays not to be very religious if at all.  I wonder if I am right in this feeling ?

 

 

I consider all religions to be fairy tales , made up to explain the unexplainable.  I was raised a Catholic but have little respect for the institution and in fact I disdain it. I believe the Vatican is responsible for millions of deaths a year and this is not mitigated by any good works they happen to do.

 

I believe religions are responsible for many people fighting to extend their lives when they are in misery and have no chance of getting better.  

 

Let me say I respect anyone who has deep religious convictions, I just don't understand how they came to those beliefs.

 

The overwhelming number or religious people did not come to believe independently , they were given their religions by their parents etc. The bottom line is I have very little faith in that kind of faith??

[a447a]

 

I find most Gays not to be very religious if at all.  I wonder if I am right in this feeling ?

 

Yes, I think so.  But remember that the vast majority of younger people are agnostic, gay or straight.

And I agree with you that religion is fake.  It is manmade; i.e. made by men, not women, to reflect the societal positions of both.  That is why men pray in magnificent mosques, whilst their wifes pray in an unadorned back room down by the toilets. It is why women, not men, wear the hijab and burka.It is why there are traditionally no women priests, only men.

 

I always wondered how seemingly very intelligent people could be religious.  Until, that is, I saw a BBC documentary on the workings of the brain.  Apparently, neuroscientists have found a part of the frontal lobe which deals with religion and superstition.  In some people, this part of the brain is well developed and predisposes them to religious belief.

I must be totally lacking that part!

 

And, of course, religion is not based on any universal truth; it is based on where you were born. Not many Buddhists in Saudi Arabia!

[Guest fountainhall]

This is a fascinating conversation with lots of good talking points. I'm sorry I cannot agree with Michael about having more sympathy with those who elect to take their own lives than those who die of a progressive disease like cancer. As I posted on another thread, we just cannot know what is going through the minds of most of those who choose suicide. Sure, in some cases it will seem like a senseless act resulting from immediate problems. Many, though, will be suffering from some kind of acute unfathomable depression that quite literally makes living hell. I know roughly what that's like, but only because one friend suffered for years before ending it all. We were grieved, but we were also pleased that his nightmare existence was over.

 

The thinking seems to be that one action - suicide - is elective, and the other - cancer and other such diseases - strikes one out of the blue. But if one adopts such a general view, surely you cannot overlook other actions which the cancer sufferer etc. may have elected to take that in part helped bring on the disease. We know that heavy smoking, binge drinking, overeating of the wrong foods and lack of exercise leading to obesity, and a host of other 'sins' can help bring on a variety of different cancers in many. We know that many cancers now, if detected early, can be treated effectively and lead to a considerably prolonged life and a much better quality of life. I already cited the example of my friend who was 'cured' of leukaemia more than 20 years ago. Prostate cancer rarely kills as it used to, because most men have the sense to have the utterly simple rectal exam and/or PSA tests which throw up early warning signs.

 

So is the acute depressive truly any more 'guilty' by taking his life than someone who ends up in the cancer wards as a result of what many might regard as his own negligence? Surely not?

[KhorTose]

I sort of agree with Fountainhall.  Shit happens, and to me death is one of the main reasons why people are religious.  However, I will not disparage these religious people in taking comfort in a belief in God's plan or that everything happens according to God's will.  If it is a comfort for religious people to believe that it's God's will,  and that's what they need to get them through an ordeal. I'll leave them to find strength and comfort in what they believe.

 

Like Fountainhall and as an atheist, I clearly see were it can be a problem when ANY death is considered God's will. Is it's God's will that someone gets drunk and plows into a crowd, killing himself and others? Where is personal responsibility in a case like that? What about the innocents that just happened to be standing on the sidewalk? Is it God's will that they too should die?

Is it God's will that someone die because they smoked, ate too much, took dope, committed suicide?

As I said, shit happens. We can't blame it all on God.

However, Death will come to all. Some ways are quicker than others. In my opinion, the worse way is the wasting away of old age. It can take years.  God's will or not, If I could avoid that kind of death I would readily take my own life.

 

[Guest fountainhall]

I'm in the same camp as luvthai, KhorTose and others. I'd far rather pop a pill and be the master of my own destiny than have to waste away. But even if a pill were available, I also accept that I may not have the means to take it if I made the decision at too late a stage. And that sure is worrying.

 

I rather admire the distinguished English orchestral conductor, Sir Edward Downes, and his wife. Married for 54 years, 85 year old Sir Edward was nearly blind and increasingly deaf. His wife was suffering from terminal cancer of the liver and pancreas. After discussing it with their children, they all flew to Switzerland where the parents ended their lives in a Swiss clinic with the children present.

 

Said their son: "They drank a small quantity of clear liquid and then lay down on beds next to each other. They wanted to be next to each other when then died. They held hands across the beds. Within a couple of minutes they were asleep and they died within ten minutes . . . It is a very civilised way to be able to end your life. I don't understand why this country doesn't allow it."

[kokopelli]

Although I posted "you're dead forever" that does not mean I deny the existence of a God nor make light of the role of organized religion. There are religions such as Judaism and Buddhism which don't decree a heaven or hell. And I can't deny that a faint hope burns in me that, when the Great Spirit takes me to the Happy Hunting Ground, there will be something more alluring than herds of buffalo and antelope.

[Guest]

There is no afterlife. This topic is a fantasy.

[Guest jomtien]

There is no afterlife. This topic is a fantasy.

 

And you can prove this how........?

[Bob]

Whether it's Thor the thunder god, aliens and their visits/anal probes, or any number of myriad beliefs that humans conjure up, it's often the tactic of the true believers to ask you to prove a negative. It can't be done and, even if it could be done, the true believers wouldn't see the forest for the trees in any event.

 

 

 

 

[Guest fountainhall]

I believe the concept of an afterlife was a necessary cohesive force in the early centuries of all three monotheistic religions (I know too little about the others). It helped their adherents suffer the miseries of what must have been a major part of their daily existence. And it helped keep the masses in some form of order.

On the other hand, I do believe that nowadays faith in a God and a religion fills a different role. To some, it’s a counter to the increasingly materialistic world we live in - although how this world fits in with the basic tenets of these religions, I find quite difficult to comprehend. Others genuinely believe in a God and an afterlife – although none has convinced me on those scores. And like Bob, I cannot understand why it is so difficult for those who believe to convince those who do not that a God is up there and we'll meet him when we shuffle of our mortal coils. If it is such a universal truth, why can't I see it?

 

Is it perhaps something relatively simple - that our minds just block out what we cannot or do not wish to comprehend? I listen to a lot of classical music. When I hear the Mozart Requiem, Haydn's "Creation", the Berlioz Te Deum or other works inspired by the gospels, I am overawed by the genius of composers, ordinary people, who believed they were inspired by what they called a faith and a God. Why did they believe? Why cant I?

[Bob]

When I was very young, I believed (largely because I was told to believe). As a teenager, I expended way too much energy actively disbelieving. As an adult, I recognize that there are some things (like what caused the big bang, is there really a higgs boson, what's the relationship of anti-matter to gravity, etc.) which we can't yet explain; however, just because I can't understand it doesn't mean I'm required to call the unexplainable god.

 

 

[KhorTose]

There is no afterlife. This topic is a fantasy.

Actually, I am sure you return to the same place you came from before you were born.

[Guest fountainhall]

Might have guessed it! Even in such a thoughtful, dialectical and philosophical thread, we'd somehow find our way back to our dicks!   

[Bob]

same place you came from before you were born.

I was told I was just a twinkle in my dad's eye. And, of course, my mother was and always remained a virgin (the 11 kids, I suppose, are just unexplainable).

[kokopelli]

If it is such a universal truth, why can't I see it?

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: Jeremiah 5:21

[t0oL1]

energy regularly cycles from kinetic to potential and back again,  converted but not destroyed.

hoping to reincarnate as someone younger

 

but seriously have seen programs where a child is (re)born with intimate knowledge of the past

 

 

http://people.howstuffworks.com/reincarnation4.htm

 

 

 

 

http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/clinical/departments/psychiatry/sections/cspp/dops/home-page

 

 

 

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm