"Experts" on Thailand

[ceejay]

To make a post on the "Wats" thread, I had occasion to look up Sala Keo Kou in Wikipedia. Included in the entry is this little gem:
 

 

Due to the lack of standard romanization scheme for Thai and Lao, there is a profusion of different spellings for Bunleua Sulilat's name as well as the names of his parks, to the extent that makes all of them virtually impossible to account for.................

...........Sala Keoku has also been referred to as Sala Keo Ku, Sala Keo Koo, Sala Keo Kou,
Sala Kaew Ku, Sala Kaew Koo, Salakaewkoo, Sala Gaew Goo, Sala Kaeoku, Sala Kaeo Ku, etc.

This is a picture of the main building at Sala Keo Kou

It seems to me that, if the people who built the place call it Sala Keo Kou, and put that up on the wall, then that is what it is called. Any discussion of what it should be called is impertinent at best, arrogant at worst, and a load of pretentious, self-important bollocks either way.

[Bob]

I've been frustrated for years trying to learn Thai and doubly frustrated by how Thai words are spelled in English.  We even occasionally get confused by the "English" spelling of a given Thai word when it appears on signs spelled in English several different ways.

 

I try to do my own "English" approximation of the Thai word and that often varies with how Thais spell things.  For example, the Thai letter "gor gai" (written "ก") is sometimes transliterated into an English "k" and also is also often transliterated as an English "g."  In my view, the closer approximation is "g" as most often that's how it's pronounced (although, admittedly, for some Thai words it's sometimes pronounced in a manner that two English speakers could honestly disagree as to what they heard).  The last word of our (Chiangmai) mall on the west side is "แก้ว", a word meaning "glass" or "crystal", and in my opinion it's most often pronounced by Thais as "gaew" (falling tone); yet, most of the English signs write it as "kaew". 

 

In any event, the Thai alphabet has several consonants with what we English people call the "k" sound yet none of those letters appear in the Thai name for the park.

 

I pronounce the park's name "saalaa gaew guu" (saa-rising tone, laa-mid tone, gaew - falling tone, guu - low tone) or I suppose I could spell it sala gaew guu. I sometimes write, for example, the double vowel (aa) when it's clear the vowel being used is a "long" vowel versus a "short" vowel. 

 

To me, pronouncing it correctly (like the Thais say it) is more important than how we or they spell it.  But I often believe that how Thais spell their words in English is simply goofy or wrong.  The main airport is most often spelled "Suvarnabhumi" in an attempt to translate the Thai word into English.  Yet, in the Thai word, there is a symbol over that last syllable (the "mi" one) which tells you that this syllable is not to be pronounced; given that situation - and given English has no such symbol to assist any English speaker anywhere, I think it's simply dumb or wrong to transliterate it any way other than to assist an English speaker to pronounce it correctly. So, in my view, the signs ought to read Suvarnapoom (or better, yet, Suwaanapoom as there really isn't any Thai "v" letter or sound and that "r" in there doesn't exist either!) or something close to that.  Likewise, why the heck write the Bangkok road in English as "Suriwongse" when no Thai or aware English speaker would ever pronounce that last syllable "se?"

[bkkguy]

To me, pronouncing it correctly (like the Thais say it) is more important than how we or they spell it.  But I often believe that how Thais spell their words in English is simply goofy or wrong. 

 

perhaps for you, but for the Airports Authority of Thailand or the Highway Department or the BMA or a foreign company doing business in Thailand the objective is NOT to teach people how to pronounce the name of an airport, a district, a building, a street or a business name, they need a legally acceptable representation of  a name in one script in another script and there are three or four accepted "standard" transliteration systems in use to do this in Thailand - they transliterate for spelling, not for pronunciation

 

if someone wants to learn to speak Thai they can't rely on any English transliteration of Thai script, as with learning any language they need to learn the Thai alphabet then they need a script to represent the phonemes of the Thai language and while the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) is commonly used in English and other western dictionaries every man and his dog who produces a Thai/English (or whatever) dictionary or language course in Thailand feels compelled to invent their own phoneme system causing chaos for the language learner!

 

bkkguy

[Bob]

It might help if you actually thought about the notion of why do they even bother to write Thai names in English.  I can only think of one reason - to allow somebody who reads English to sound out that word and have it be as close as possible to how it sounds in Thai (if you can think of another reason, please share it with us); as such, it would seem to me that the goal ought to be to achieve that purpose.  So, for example (same one above), why spell "glass" in English "kaew" when it sounds in Thai like "gaew?" 

 

If you've studied Thai, you'd also know that there are several transliteration systems used, not just one.  And often that's why a street name in Chiangmai or Bangkok or wherever is often transliterated differently in English (which, of course, only adds to the English speaker's confusion) depending on the sign or map you happen to be looking at the moment. 

 

It'd help (again, presuming the goal is to approximate the Thai sound in English) if they consistently used the same system and/or if the system they used actually allowed English speakers to see the word and actually pronounce it somewhat near to the correct Thai verbalization of the word. 

[Up2u]

There is an "official" transliteration system for the Thai language called RTGS for putting words in Latin or Roman script.  Yes there are others but this one is primarily used by the government and businesses, and for most road signs, etc.  For example, it is used on the chanote for my condo.  BTW, a resident foreigner should recognize his own name in Thai script.  If people would take the time to learn the transliteration system they might get close to the the Thai sound.  An English speaker seeing a road sign would think the sign is in English and pronounce the words accordingly, but logically a German or Frenchman would do the same and none of them would sound like a Thai.  Even a consonant can change sound if it is in the initial or final postion of a syllable.  Here in Pattaya there is a tourist attraction called Nong Nooch Gardens.  It's fun to listen to foreigners butcher that one.  The Thai sound would be closer to Suan Nawng Noot.  Suan is garden, Nawng is a term of endearment and Noot was the ladies name.  All very confusing; solution of course is to learn Thai script.

[Bob]

All very confusing; solution of course is to learn Thai script.

Agreed.  Learning the Thai provides the best way, in my view, of learning how to correctly pronounce the words.  And it's often that knowledge - seeing a Thai word and knowing how it's pronounced and then looking at how they spelled it in English alongside - which makes me shake my head.  But also makes me sympathetic at times as to how badly some falang pronounce certain Thai words.

[Guest fountainhall]

Why is it that, for example, Rama IV road is pronounced Palam Si or sometimes Praram Si? (The Si part I understand, as I hope even most visitors will.) 

[Guest painai]

Why is it that, for example, Rama IV road is pronounced Palam Si or sometimes Praram Si? (The Si part I understand, as I hope even most visitors will.) 

My 2 cents--the pra refers to royalty or to a monk.  As to why Palam or Praram, Thais will pronounce the r sound as  l, as in Falang for Farang  

[Rogie]

  But also makes me sympathetic at times as to how badly some falang pronounce certain Thai words.

 

Why is it that, for example, Rama IV road is pronounced Palam Si or sometimes Praram Si? (The Si part I understand, as I hope even most visitors will.) 

 

Yes, I know si (pronounced 'see') is Thai for four.

 

OK, hands up all those who say Rama 'four'? And now those who say Palam Si? As one happily falling into the first camp I have no intention of making a fool of myself by trying to be 'falung-clever'.  Sorry to be somewhat dismissive, but I speak as a visitor; I think those of you resident in Thailand probably benefit from being a bit more streetwise so pronouncing roads etc correctly is perfectly reasonable.

[Guest abang1961]

As a Chinese-speaking Singaporean, I would have to say, it is really difficult to pronounce Thai words.

It has a mixture of Chaozhou (southern China dialect) in it.

 

Amongst the many reasons for visiting the kingdom, confusion with the Thai language is quite often the charm.

I really enjoy visiting Thailand because, for me, it has that overseas/foreign experience.

This is so unlike whenever I visit Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Mainland China and even Korea and Japan.

I could either speak and read everything in Chinese characters... more or less double guess ..

But in Thai, I am as clueless as any other farangs.

[gumbleby]

In my opinion, a universal and exact transliteration system will never be developed or imposed, because in the long term it might become a threat to the use of the Thai script (which is after all non-trivial, even quite baroque). For example, I've been told people in Cambodia often transliterate to the western alphabet when texting.

[Guest fountainhall]

Surely you cannot get anywhere close to the transliteration of any tonal based language into English? It's not because it may be a threat; much more because there are no similar sounds with their various infections, pitches etc. in the English language.

[bkkguy]

It might help if you actually thought about the notion of why do they even bother to write Thai names in English.  I can only think of one reason - to allow somebody who reads English to sound out that word and have it be as close as possible to how it sounds in Thai (if you can think of another reason, please share it with us);

 

who is "they" and if you can only think of one reason for transliterating Thai into English then it might help if you actually read my original post where I said "[for AOT,BMA et al] the objective is NOT to teach people how to pronounce [something] ... they need a legally acceptable representation of a name in one script in another script and ... they transliterate for spelling, not for pronunciation" - that is what transliteration is all about, see the the Oxford English Dictionary

 

 

transliterate - write or print (a letter or word) using the closest corresponding letters of a different alphabet or language

 

 

note there is no reference to "sounds"  or pronunciation here, just letters of the written alphabet!

 

written Thai uses an alphabet of 44 consonants and 13 vowels and other characters, English uses an alphabet of 26 characters and punctuation etc; while there is a reasonably close correlation between written and spoken Thai there are still exceptions and irregularities, and there have been whole volumes written on the difficulties of correctly pronouncing a word written in English; there are also sounds used in spoken Thai that are not used in spoken English, etc, etc, etc...

 

given all of this I am surprised that you seem to think that "transliteration" for pronunciation is easy and you cannot understand why the way  "Thais spell their words in English is simply goofy or wrong"

 

you think the Thai letter "gor gai" is better transliterated as "g" rather than "k" but when Thais "gin" I am sure they expect to have something with rice but most English people would expect a drink with tonic and ice!

 

then there are the d/t/th and b/p/ph problems and for pronunciation you will probably "fuck it" if you are an English photographer going to Phuket!

 

then there is the fact that some consonants in Thai are pronounced differently at the start and the end of a syllable - hence the baht/bath problem!

 

none of the common "official" transliteration systems used here (and yes I have studied Thai and I am very familiar with the various transliteration systems used - official or otherwise - that is why I referred to "three or four" in my original post even though you seem to have missed that as well!) are perfect, and they all try to make at least some concessions to pronunciation as well - and that is where they usually start to fall down!

 

so even simple transliteration has problems that greater minds then yours or mine have grappled with for years, and getting multiple government departments and other organizations to agree to use a single transliteration system has so far proved impossible, so if you really think that the factor of ten million more difficult task of easily rendering correct pronunciation of a Thai script word using English script is ever going to be successful then you are off with the pixies - the only realistic option for pronunciation is the use of a custom scripts like the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA), which you also chose to ignore from my original post!

 

bkkguy

 

 

 

[bkkguy]

Surely you cannot get anywhere close to the transliteration of any tonal based language into English? It's not because it may be a threat; much more because there are no similar sounds with their various infections, pitches etc. in the English language.

 

I have had it shoved down my throat for years that Thai is a tonal language so tone is used to imply meaning - "ma, ma, ma, ma, ma" etc, but I have just been to see the movie "Jan Dara -the epilogue" where the matriarch uses a Thai phrase that is usually translated as "precious one" when referring to Mario, but there are three distinct tones of voice she uses at different points in the movie that I think would be understood by both westerners and Thais as "I love you and am so happy to see you", "I love you but now I need you to protect me" and "I love you but  if won't do your duty then you are not my precious one anymore!"

 

bkkguy

[Guest bbillybb]

Well well well. Such an intense discussion. I think I will just continue to speak English and find myself a great Thai BF and he can do all the translating we will need. I know for sure I will not be able to learn the language.  Mai pen rai.

[Guest thaiworthy]

Well well well. Such an intense discussion. I think I will just continue to speak English and find myself a great Thai BF and he can do all the translating we will need. I know for sure I will not be able to learn the language.  Mai pen rai.

 

Agreed! Amongst all this gibberish in the last few posts, this is the most intelligent statement I have read so far. There are no experts on this subject. It is folly to assume there are. I might have guessed a subject like "Experts on Thailand" would rouse our resident "expert" from his sleep.

 

Maybe all I want to know is how to say "May I have more cream for my coffee?" It takes an expert to tell me how to say this? Or for that matter, to read signage? Who cares?

 

Intense discussions arise from one very intense person with an agenda of a very different intent, present company in this thread excepted, of course! Some others reading these posts might be put off, too. Reading them has given me a headache! I may learn sign language, with the middle finger extended, but I won't say at whom it may be directed. How's that for intense?

 

Happy mai pen rai to you, too-- bbillybb! Thank you. Did we write all that correctly, I wonder?!

[Up2u]

I don't know about "resident" experts or agendas, but I thought post #13 was right on the mark.  Intuitvely, some seem to think when they see Romanization of Thai script it is "English".

[Guest abang1961]

Once more, I speak fluent Mandarin and Cantonese.

 

Mandarin has 4 main tones and 1 light tone.

Even within the same tone, there are many different words.

 

Learning Cantonese is tougher.

It has 9 different tones and many lighter tones.

 

Of course as fluent as I could be, my Mandarin accent is far from those spoken in Beijing.

My Cantonese is much passable - they cannot differentiate me from a HKer...

 

Come back to Thai..

I used to have this Lonely Planet guidebook that teaches me simple Thai words.

After almost 25 years of visiting the Kingdom, I am sad to say, I am still learning how to order food.

I can count from 1 to 10, 100s and 1000s....but that's all.

I blame myself for being lazy...

Sad ....

Try this: Wat Phra Kaew .. the last word is difficult to pronouce

[ChristianPFC]

Why is it that, for example, Rama IV road is pronounced Palam Si or sometimes Praram Si? (The Si part I understand, as I hope even most visitors will.) 

 

I think the correct Thai name is ถนนพระรามที่ ๔ (Rama IV Road) which transliterates as Thanon Pra Ram tii sii (road - title - rama - the - fourth). The r in Pra is usually not pronounced and in Ram the R can be pronounced as L.

 

That leaves one question: why is it sometimes Ram and sometimes Rama? I have no idea.