Pope To Resign

[KhorTose]

Isn't that two Popes too many?

[Guest fountainhall]

Like it or not, that's going to be what the world will have - until one shuffles of the mortal coil.

 

A Papal election is a rare and important occasion not only for the Catholic faithful (unless you were around in 1978 when there were two within the space of about 6 weeks). Who will it be? A Cardinal from Africa? If so, then I for one hope it is not the very homophobic Cardinal Peter Turkson. This Cardinal only recently laid the blame for the sex abuses uncovered in the Church squarely at the feet of gay priests.
 

 

Cardinal Peter Turkson, who comes from Ghana, told an American journalist that similar sex scandals would never convulse churches in Africa because the culture was inimical to homosexuality.

‘African traditional systems kind of protect or have protected its population against this tendency,’ he told Christiane Amanpour of CCN.

‘Because in several communities, in several cultures in Africa homosexuality or for that matter any affair between two sexes of the same kind, are not countenanced in our society,’ he continued.

‘So that cultural taboo, that tradition has been there,’ said Cardinal Turkson, 64. ‘It has served to keep it out.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2281411/Cardinal-Peter-Turkson-blames-gay-priests-abuse-scandals-facing-Catholic-church.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

One from South America? I think unlikely given the downward spiral in Church membership on that continent.

Or, after two non-Italian Popes, will there be pressure in the Sistine Chapel inspired by Michelangelo’s frescos and the Divine Creator for a return to an Italian?

I am not sure if the bookies have got a favourite – or even if such a book can be opened. But if there is somewhere a ‘runners and riders’ Board, my money is on Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi. Don’t ask me why. But a little bird . . . !

[NIrishGuy]

Well if I had to pick someone to do that job I would pay good money if I could swing the vote to ensure that the Milan Cardinal Angelo Scola gets elected - not that he has a great track record on gay rights or anything but just for the sheer pleasure of hearing newcasters referring as to how refershing it will be to have "PopeScola" now in the Vatican as I always thought it was more of a Coca Cola place myself ! lol

 

And you REALLY would have thought that His Holiness and Cardinal Scola might have worked out the gays were trying to tell them some gay scandal was about to break at their last outing together as I mean talk about waving a flag :-)

[Guest]

This job requires a Gorbachev.  Someone who can radically reform and downsize the whole damn mess.  

The more downsizing, the better.   If he can correct the moral failings in their outdated doctrine, even better.

[kokopelli]

This job requires a Gorbachev.  Someone who can radically reform and downsize the whole damn mess.  

The more downsizing, the better.   If he can correct the moral failings in their outdated doctrine, even better.

 

Well, there was a Russian Pope Kiril who did shake things up at the Vatican.  But, alas, just a novel, The Shoes of the Fisherman, by Morris West.

[Guest fountainhall]

I read something interesting the other night (or heard it on TV, can’t recall which): that in this day and age of huge technological advances and with so much happening in and around the Vatican, etc., it is all way more than one elected by a group of fellow ageing Cardinals can be expected to handle. Is it realistic in any way for a Pope to be involved in matters relating to the billion dollars and more of Church investments? We know many bankers themselves were mostly crooks? How was John Paul II supposed to handle the mafia-style murder of Roberto Calvi – “God’s Banker", the head of the Banco Ambrosiano – when he was found hanging from the girders of London’s Blackfriars Bridge. Not only was Calvi a member of the illegal Masonic Lodge P2 (who just happened to call themselves the “Black Friars”), the bank whose assets he was supposed to be protecting had gone belly-up.

As one of the five who were acquitted of killing him said just last year –
 

 

"I was not the one who hanged Calvi. One day I may write the full story, but the real killers will never be brought to justice because they are being protected by the Italian state, by members of the P2 masonic lodge. They have massive power. They are made up of a mixture of politicians, bank presidents, the military, top security and so on. This is a case that they continue to open and close again and again but it will never be resolved. The higher you go, the less evidence you will find."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/12/roberto-calvi-blackfriars-bridge-mafia

Surely a Pope should stick to spiritual matters, the shepherd leading his flock and being a moral compass for others - rather as Nelson Mandela and Aung San Suu Kyi are in their own ways, and as indeed the world expected the always smiling short-lived John Paul I to be. Cardinals, archbishops and rest of the panoply of the anointed should assist him and cease being backroom administrators where they are clearly, if the recent allegations made by the Pope’s own butler are anything near the truth, hopelessly unqualified and largely inept.

Beside any Pope nowadays should be a strong, able and committed independent management team headed by a highly respected and competent CEO.

[Guest thaiworthy]

And it has just been announced that instead of reverting to plain Joseph Ratzinger, the present Pope will be titled Pope Emeritus and retain the name Benedict XVI. He will also be addressed by the honorific "Your Holiness". So there will after all be two Popes, despite what the Vatican has been saying since the resignation was announced.

 

From CNN today:

 

Pope Benedict XVI made his last public appearance as pontiff today at Italy’s Castel Gandolfo, the seaside papal resort town where, starting tonight, Benedict will be in seclusion until his successor is chosen.

 

"Thank you for your friendship and for your affection," he told a cheering crowd as he spoke from a balcony. "I am no longer the pope."

 

Benedict announced February 11 that he would step down, becoming the first living pope to resign in 598 years.

 

Benedict, 85, said he was resigning because of his age. He has pledged “unconditional obedience” to the next pope, who the Vatican hopes to have in place in time for the week of services leading up to Easter Sunday on March 31

 

His sudden announcement led to speculation that his move was in some way linked to brewing scandals within the Church.

 

Benedict will eventually move to a small monastery within the Vatican grounds.

[kokopelli]

 

Pope to remain "Pope Bendict XVI"

 

And it has just been announced that instead of reverting to plain Joseph Ratzinger, the present Pope will be titled Pope Emeritus and retain the name Benedict XVI. He will also be addressed by the honorific "Your Holiness". So there will after all be two Popes, despite what the Vatican has been saying since the resignation was announced. 

 

 

 

Not really two Popes anymore than there are 5 Presidents of the USA since all ex-presidents are addressed as Mr. President.

[Guest thaiworthy]

Not really two Popes anymore than there are 5 Presidents of the USA since all ex-presidents are addressed as Mr. President.

 

I agree! But are two Popes better than one? Actually, probably the reverse. But I said the same thing you did and got subtly and unceremoniously rebuffed!

[Guest fountainhall]

Not really two Popes anymore than there are 5 Presidents of the USA since all ex-presidents are addressed as Mr. President.

 

You're not comparing like with like, though. The US is the only country, I think, which continues to address Presidents, Governors, Senators and other office holders by their previous titles long after they have left office. I have always found this bizarre in the extreme!

 

The previous Papal resignations have not resulted in a second Pope hanging around. There are only about 3 precedents for resignation, and only Benedict has decided to keep the word Pope in his title.  The last one, Gregory XII, reverted to being just a Cardinal. Celestine V who resigned after only 5 months in 1294 said his reasons were - 

 

"The desire for humility, for a purer life, for a stainless conscience, the deficiencies of his own physical strength, his ignorance, the perverseness of the people, his longing for the tranquility of his former life". Having divested himself of every outward symbol of papal dignity, he retired to his old solitude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V

 

The only other, Benedict IX, sold the Papacy to his godfather in 1045! He was an interesting character and is thought to have been the first homosexual Pope. He was made Pope aged between 18 and 20 - although some claim he was only 11 or 12. (wonder how much that cost his family?   ). The Bishop of Piacenza accused him of “many adulteries and murders”, whilst Pope Victor III refers to his “rapes, murders and other unspeakable acts.” St Peter Damian wrote an extended treatise accusing Benedict IX of routine sodomy, bestiality and sponsoring orgies. (Now, how much would entry to those little divertissements have cost, I wonder   )

 

Twice he was expelled from Rome and other Popes put in his place, but both times he returned to reclaim the Papal Crown. He eventually resigned – and then he got married!!

 

Oh! The good old days! 

[Guest abang1961]

I am not a Roman Catholic nor am I a pious/religious person.

I was quite shock to read the following link...

maybe ex-Pope did a smart move by resigning.. the first in 600+ years.

Perhaps he leaves the cleaning up to the next Pope

 

*****

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/02/22/pope-leaks-fallout/1938321/

 

Pope transfers top official amid speculation about report on Vatican leaks scandal.

The Italian media is reporting that Pope Benedict XVI resigned  after receiving the results of an internal investigation, delivered in a 300-page, two-volume dossier, that laid bare a sordid tale of blackmail, corruption and gay sex at the Vatican.

 

The respected Italian newspaper La Repubblica reported Friday that the report stamped "Pontifical Secret," contained
"an exact map of the mischief and the bad fish" inside the Holy See.

The newspaper said the findings of the nine-month investigation, headed by Spanish cardinal, Julian Herranz , with the assistance of Cardinal Salvatore De Giorgi, former archbishop of Palermo, and Slovak  cardinal Jozef Tomko, was delivered to the pope on Dec. 17, 2012.

"It was on that day, with those papers on his desk, that Benedict XVI took the decision he had mulled over for so long,'' the newspaper said.

 

La Repubblica said the panel drew upon "dozens and dozens" of interviews with bishops, cardinals and lay people. It said the pope was kept apprised of the investigation in weekly meetings from April until December. The final, bound in red leather, is being kept in a safe in the pope's Vatican quarters, the newspaper said.

[Guest thaiworthy]

So who is the next Pope? When will we find out?

 

I want to make popcorn and Pope-si-Cola for the swearing-in ceremony, because no doubt, I will be swearing.

 

I think the guy in the front row is dreaming about go-go boys.

 

[kokopelli]

Popcorn? I think you meant popecorn and popesicola.

[Guest thaiworthy]

Popcorn? I think you meant popecorn and popesicola.

 

I did have the Popesicola already, Koko. But I don't know how I missed Pope-corn!

[KhorTose]

Something for everyone to think about

[Guest fountainhall]

Something more worrying (for those hoping there will be some reform in the Catholic Church). The ex-Benedict created 90 new Cardinals in this relatively short reign. Most of these are eligible to vote and so represent more than half the Cardinals who will now elect his successor. As Cardinal Ratzinger, often called The Pope's Rotweiller, Benedict was known to be an arch-conservative. Presumably, he ensured those new cardinals held his views. 

 

Against that, the election of John Paul I came as a total surprise. Wonder what will happen this time around.

[kokopelli]

I did have the Popesicola already, Koko. But I don't know how I missed Pope-corn!

Maybe you had brain freeze from eating a Popesicle?

[Guest inxtc]

 

You're not comparing like with like, though. The US is the only country, I think, which continues to address Presidents, Governors, Senators and other office holders by their previous titles long after they have left office. I have always found this bizarre in the extreme!

 

 

 

But then again, a Western nation that continues to kill its children perhaps is indeed bizarre!

[Guest fountainhall]

Another WTF moment!

 

I had always been led to believe that the Cardinals of the Catholic Church meet in secret conclave locked up in the Sistine Chapel, totally free of outside influences so they can be guided by the Holy Spirit in deciding who is to be the next Pope. Not so it seems, for some Cardinals are trying to delay the process in order to preempt the Holy Spirit's guidance.

 

Some American and other cardinals had said they wanted to continue the pre-conclave meetings that have been going on all week for as long as it takes so they can discern who among them has the stuff to be pope and discuss the problems of the church . . . These discussions are designed to give cardinals a chance to get to know one another better and dive into the problems confronting the church and who among them is best suited to fix them.

 

And are they looking forward to being spiritually guided in their decision? Seems not.

 

"Hopefully it will be a short conclave and start very soon," Vatican-based German Cardinal Paul Josef Cordes was quoted Wednesday as telling the German daily Bild. "I would compare it with a visit to the dentist - you want to get everything over with quickly."

 

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_POPE?SITE=WIJAN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

 

I'll bet they're hoping it's not as long as the one in 1268 which took almost 11 months. During that time 3 Cardinals died and one resigned. No doubt, the reduction of the Cardinals' diet to bread and water helped speed up the decision. Some say, the roof of the electoral chapel was also removed!

 

(This is somewhat irreverent! If the vdo does not work, google you tube pick a pope)

[Guest scottishguy]

One can only assume that the "Holy Spirit" (which will guide them to the right decision) operates a flexible appointment system.

[firecat69]

My wish is that they elect someone who recognizes that the Catholic Church murders millions of people with their ridiculous stand on Birth Control.  Most of the western world ignores this ridiculous teaching so now they go to Africa and other poor nations to spread this teaching and bring millions into the world to starve or die by aids.  No matter how many good deeds they do with Catholic Charities , this is a travesty.

[Guest scottishguy]

Well, you are of course correct - and if you look at the Catholic and even Anglican church leaders within Africa you will find a great many of the world's most unenlightened, repressive, bigoted, and irresponsible so-called "men of God".

[Guest Jovianmoon]

One of the doomsayers' prophesies say that the next Pope is supposed to be the Anti.Christ?

 

No, that's 

 

[Bob]

My wish is that they elect someone who recognizes that the Catholic Church murders millions of people with their ridiculous stand on Birth Control.  Most of the western world ignores this ridiculous teaching so now they go to Africa and other poor nations to spread this teaching and bring millions into the world to starve or die by aids.  No matter how many good deeds they do with Catholic Charities , this is a travesty.

Before commenting, I was raised a Catholic although I have no use for the Church anymore or any of its teachings.  And it's positions on so many things - including birth control, priestly celebacy, and many other doctrines - are simply ignorant and stupid.

 

But use of the word "murder" is as badly flawed as many of their doctrines.  You call it "murder" when they sincerely believe (rightly or wrongly) that their doctrine is solely intended to preserve life.  They may not be fully correct but your use of the word "murder" is fully incorrect in my opinion.

 

I believe we had this logic presented on the board in the not too distant past - that those who help preserve the lives of newborns in Africa (through provision of food, medicine, or whatever) are responsible for their later deaths due to starvation, war, or whatever.  In my view, that's simply twisted logic and almost sounds like an excuse (as inexcusable as it may be) not to do the "human" thing and at least attempt to help those that can't help themselves. 

[Guest Jovianmoon]

...those who help preserve the lives of newborns in Africa (through provision of food, medicine, or whatever) are responsible for their later deaths due to starvation, war, or whatever.  In my view, that's simply twisted logic and almost sounds like an excuse...

 

I cannot recall anyone in any context (inside or outside this forum) who has claimed that "those who help preserve the lives of newborns in Africa (through provision of food, medicine, or whatever) are responsible for their later deaths due to starvation, war, or whatever". Nobody doubts the efforts of religious organisations (Catholic or otherwise) who genuinely contribute to the well-being of people in Africa through the "provision of food, medicine, or whatever". And nobody, as far as I can see, has suggested that such organisations are "responsible for their later deaths due to starvation, war, or whatever". Those are not the accusations.

 

What is at issue here are the motivations of some religious organisations (Catholic or otherwise) who seek to impose their out-dated and out-moded values upon people who are dying in the millions - values which are totally unrelated to starvation and war. The mere fact that food and medicine are provided by such organisations does abrogate the responsibility of those organisations to present all the facts - and all the condoms needed to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS in affected areas, irrespective of their religious convictions regarding human fertility rites.

 

If you are suggesting that someone on this forum has argued that the good deeds of some organisations (Catholic or otherwise) are, by those deeds, responsible for the deaths of people in Africa "due to starvation, war, or whatever" , then:

 

Oh no, here we go again!