Hindsight In A Gay Perspective

[Guest thaiworthy]

I am trying to improve my status as a thread starter, which was brought to my attention in another thread. So here goes one of three subjects, one gay-Thailand related, one Thailand-only related and one gay-only related:

 

This is a personal subject, but I don't know how you can discuss sexual orientation realistically without getting personal. But as I get older, I am forced to think more and more about the inevitable demise of a surviving parent. I have mixed feelings about my upbringing, lack of respect I have shown to authority while as a child, and some general, normal regret for things happening one way or another. I may feel justified in my behavior on some issues and the opposite for others, but I always blame being gay as an excuse for others' shortsightedness and lack of understanding. Is this fair? This is especially true with regard to parents. They have never been accepting and I still hold them accountable for that. I won't go into details. It isn't necessary. These are experiences we have all had growing up gay. But I have been accepted by aging aunts, uncles and grandparents and that highlights why I shall forever think of parents as scornful.

 

When the other parent passes, I wonder how I'll feel. If maybe it hasn't been fair of me at all. They aren't demons. They are/were loving parents. But they were active politically and would discuss anti-gay measures aloud while on the phone in my presence. That really hurt, and it goes on hurting.

 

What is this thing about parenthood that imposes their imprint of how you should live your life to your last dying day? Don't they construe how you would feel, based on how they felt when they were your age or in your place? What takes over? Why? Why? Why?

 

I will take this to my deathbed, I guess. I would like to know how many others here will as well.

[KhorTose]

The edit feature on this board really sucks.  I only wanted to quote part of what you said and this thing won't let me.

 

Oh well, as to your parents, their inability to accept you as gay is truly their loss not yours.  Beating yourself up for their inadequacies is self-defeating and misplaced anger at the very best.  Yes, be angry at them for the hurt, but try not to take it out on yourself, or engage in self-pity.  Then go one step further and try to understand why they were this way.  You know their past and if you think upon it the answers will come to you.  One possibility you might consider is that their rigidness could be both do to age and to a personal struggle they themselves might have had with sexual orientation.  I am reminded of Javier the detective in Les Miserables who forced himself into such a narrow system of actions and beliefs to overcome his past that when he saw his belief structure collapse he could no longer cope with the world as it really was.  Understanding why they were like they were,  will help you stop being angry at them, and perhaps even  lead to your forgiveness of them.  Until you reach that stage you are imposing a burden on your own happiness and I wish you the greatest success in finding that understanding of your parents.

 

 

 

[Bob]

There are always (I think) issues that tend to haunt children about how their parents treated them. I felt a bit bitter for a while regarding a rather unpleasant father for a lot of years but eventually figured out that the only way to deal with it was to let it go.  That's my advice - just let it go.  Not worth agonizing over it and it won't make any difference anyway (other than ruining your day). 

 

It's funny how most humans treat/view their parents.  Up until about age 12 or 13, they're friggin' perfect people and can do nothing wrong (well, that's how we often viewed them).  Then, something (hormones, intelligence, karma?) happens and there's that young teenage day when you begin to believe that your parents can do nothing right!  In the long run, however, we eventually figure out that they're just human beings with a mix of positives and negatives.  Based on what you're saying, though, it sounds to me that they passed the test (the positives far outweigh the negatives).  Accept them for what they are/were, warts and all, as it's simply masochistic to beat yourself to death because they weren't like you wished them to be. 

[Guest fountainhall]

I guess I was lucky. I never had the need to tell my parents I was gay as I moved away from my home town as soon as I graduated. I am pretty sure my father would have understood, though. He was a doctor with fairly liberal views. But it was my choice not to tell him. By the time he died, I had told my sister and some other family members - but not my mother. She was of a generation which, I think, would have been uncomfortable talking about it. By then I was 6,000 miles away and again there seemed no need. Besides, when you get to that age and have never had a regular girl friend or discussed marriage, I am certain she knew.

As KhorTose and Bob have suggested, I do hope you will take more effort to banish these feelings about your upbringing. It's just a fact that parents bring up their kids in the way they see fit and view life in a certain way. If even now they still will not accept your sexuality, I doubt they ever will. The key surely is that you should not continue to be burdened with this.

Nearly all us have baggage from our early years that we would rather keep in the recesses of our mind. I certainly have! But one thing we should know is that we can deal with all that - and it's not necessary to go to a psychiatrist to do so. We each create our own reality and we each have it in us to change that reality. We just have to keep working at it by not concentrating on the brooding and the blaming. Instead, work hard at letting go and freeing yourself at the same time.

[Rogie]

 

What is this thing about parenthood that imposes their imprint of how you should live your life to your last dying day? Don't they construe how you would feel, based on how they felt when they were your age or in your place? What takes over? Why? Why? Why?

 

Some good replies from Bob and KT.

 

Most loving parents want their kids to conform to some kind of ideal. Maybe some parents are different, perhaps they were hippies in their youth or had unconventional parents themselves, but on the whole the majority of parents would be more than happy to see their son get a good education, good job with prospects and good marriage - with grandchildren a boost to them in their old age.

 

That surely was the way most parents thought at one time. Certainly parents of my generation, born in the 1920's. They grew up in difficult times, the depression in the US followed by WW2. They may in turn have had less than ideal parents themselves, fathers who'd served in WW1, seen and experienced terrible things. How many times do we read about men who've lived through wars and survived, but who maintain a steadfast silence to their families about what happened. Yes, their bodies may have been intact but many, if not most, were damaged in other subtle ways. Perhaps that was just the way things were done, you didn't want to discuss things that nobody really wanted to hear. Bottle the memories of those experiences up and maybe they'll go away.

 

The 20's right up to the late 60's or even into the 70's, depending on where you lived, was not an ideal time to be gay. It strikes me there were a lot of double standards going on there. We had a fascinating thread all about the sexual goings-on in the theatrical (in more ways than one) Redgrave family. Most ordinary families weren't like that, and even if they wanted to be they couldn't. They couldn't because society was a vicious place. Step out of line and there was often a price to be paid.

 

Parents born after WW2 - the baby boomers - and especially those now in their 30's and 40's, are much more aware of how sexuality shapes a person's life and the importance of not meddling. Equality legislation and a more open society now means there are plenty of role models (singers, actors, artists, basically anybody), films, theatre etc to take away any lingering mystique, and nowadays most people know friends and acquaintances who are gay or bisexual. I rather like it when we hear something along these lines when a boy or young man, or even a middle-aged man, comes out to his parents "we've known for a long time, son". Hopefully there will be far fewer parents burying their heads in the sand as far as their children's sexuality is concerned.

 

Sorry, TW,  I cannot add to KT and Bob's excellent advice and I fully agree with what they've said.

 

Later: I must add FH to those giving good advice. He posted as I was composing.

[Guest timmberty]

both my parents where dead before i was 25 so i never got around to telling them i was gay.

would it have made a differance to them if they had of known ?? of course it would have ..

parents want to become granparents, even those who say it doesnt matter to me, are lying

if they are not lying to their children then they are lying to themselves.

but the way i look at it is, its your life so stuff what anyone else thinks, sadly tho thats what i think its far from how i live my life, i have very few friends who know im gay. tho as FH says, me being 50 and never having had a girlfriend must be some sort of give away.

my simplistic way to look at life is you are born you will die, so its up to us each as individuals to make the best of what is done inbetween.

[TotallyOz]

I was very out and open to my mother when I came out. I didn't come out until I was 28. She died about 7 years later but she was always supportive, loving and kind. She loved all my boyfriends like they were her own kids and for 7 years they attended every Xmas gathering in Alabama and Tennessee with my family.

 

When my mother found out I was gay she cried. She said that she was upset. My heart dropped. She said she was upset that I had lied to her all these years. I was floored. It was not me being gay that bothered her but the fact that I didn't tell her about my life earlier. To be honest, I wasn't ready to tell her as I didn't tell anyone until a few months before. My sister was the only one that knew for years. She found out as I was a writer in college and had written a short story about two gay lovers. She read it and put two and two together and asked. I told her. She was the only one I told for years.

 

I am glad to have been able to have such a great discussion with her. It was important to her and to me. As she was on her death bed, she held my hand and the hand of my long term companion and told us both she loved us. She didn't say, I love Michael. She said, I love you both so much.

 

Peace.

[Guest timmberty]

sorry michael ?? you came out when you was 28 .. then she did 7 years later? did what ? come out too ?

[Guest]

Well, people amongst my family, friends and other acquaintances just don't come out and say "I'm straight". So I don't see why gay people should behave any differently & do not see any need to explain matters.

Some people work out the obvious. Some do not.

[TotallyOz]

sorry michael ?? you came out when you was 28 .. then she did 7 years later? did what ? come out too ?

Sorry, no, she died 7 years later.

[Guest timmberty]

well edited .. well they all die in the end which is why at the end of the day what does anything matter ? i will die, you will die, so does it reall matter what anyone thinks about you or what you do ? as long as you dont hurt anyone ?

[TotallyOz]

well edited .. well they all die in the end which is why at the end of the day what does anything matter ? i will die, you will die, so does it reall matter what anyone thinks about you or what you do ? as long as you dont hurt anyone ?

Yes, it does matter to me. I love my family and am VERY family orientated. Their opinion does matter. Luckily, they are OK with my life.

[Guest timmberty]

as i said before, i dont belive parents are happy having gay kids.

they want grandchildren they will lie and say they are happy for you,

sure they love you, but you have (not you but any gay son) deprive them of that.

thats my belief. you may or may not agree. i may or may not care.

[Rogie]

It seems reasonable to assume that most parents nowadays are very well informed about these things when compared to the ignorance of earlier generations. That doesn't mean to say they will be any more or less thrilled to learn their son or daughter is gay, but they are likely to be prepared for it, should things pan out that way. Any sensible parent can work out the odds for himself, so to put on a pair of blinkers and pretend it can't happen in their family could have awkward consequences. Of course some parents do put on the blinkers, but no longer out of ignorance. Earlier generations were 'ignorant' because homosexuality was a crime. Nobody wanted to admit in public to being homosexual or even knowing one. A life in the closet was more or less a homosexual's unhappy lot, and there were no role models hence stupid stereotypes prevailed in people's imaginations. 

[TotallyOz]

as i said before, i dont belive parents are happy having gay kids.

they want grandchildren they will lie and say they are happy for you,

sure they love you, but you have (not you but any gay son) deprive them of that.

thats my belief. you may or may not agree. i may or may not care.

That may be true for YOUR parents. It wasn't for mine.

[Guest timmberty]

sure belive that if it makes you feel better about yourself.

you really think your parents where happier that you had a boyfriend than a wife ?

so glad infact you couldnt even tell them..

im just being honest, try it sometime you may feel liberated.

i wonder how many gay men tell their parents they go to thailand to have cheap sex with the money boys there ?? another reason for mum to be proud ive no doubt.

[TotallyOz]

sure belive that if it makes you feel better about yourself.

you really think your parents where happier that you had a boyfriend than a wife ?

so glad infact you couldnt even tell them..

im just being honest, try it sometime you may feel liberated.

i wonder how many gay men tell their parents they go to thailand to have cheap sex with the money boys there ?? another reason for mum to be proud ive no doubt.

Again, you must be basing this on your own childhood. It was not mine.

 

I did not tell my parents that I was gay until I decided for sure I was gay. I dated women my entire life until the month I "came out." I told my parents and my friends all within a few months of that.

 

My mother was not only fine with it, she went to gay bars with me and the boys in NYC. I did not lead a traditional gay life as I also had lots of boys in and out of my place every day. I threw massive gay parties in NYC and part of a very wild crowd. She knew. She loved all of it.

 

I don't need to think she was happier. I know she was OK with my life and my decisions. And, yes, my family does know I go to Thailand to have sex with money boys. It is and always has been a non issue for them. That is part of what a loving family and honesty in a family is about.

[Guest timmberty]

well you are right i was basing it on my life ..

but hey ho we are all different .. you come across as being totally liberated but also totally false..

did/do the big parties make up for an unhappy childhood ? dating girls musta felt so wrong and you did that to keep your folks onside, yet all the time you could have just told them.

you come across as being plastic here im afraid.

did your mom tell all her friend you where gay after you told her ?

it musta been so so trendy to have a gay son in N.Y.C.

[TotallyOz]

well you are right i was basing it on my life ..

but hey ho we are all different .. you come across as being totally liberated but also totally false..

did/do the big parties make up for an unhappy childhood ? dating girls musta felt so wrong and you did that to keep your folks onside, yet all the time you could have just told them.

you come across as being plastic here im afraid.

did your mom tell all her friend you where gay after you told her ?

it musta been so so trendy to have a gay son in N.Y.C.

i can see why you got bullied as a kid now.

LOL I am pretty fucking liberated.

 

I never said I had an unhappy childhood. I said I was bullied a little BUT and this is a big but, my family and friends stood up for me and fought back when I didn't want to. My childhood was spurts of great fun and joy mixed with feelings that I was missing out on a part of who I was.

 

Dating girls did not feel false at the time. It felt lacking. I still have sex with women on occasion and do not feel that is false either. It is just what I want at the time.

 

My mom did tell her friends.

 

You must have been so sad growing up that it pains you to see someone live a good life and be happy with the decisions they have made and have a family that supports him. I am sorry you did not get to experience this. But, that does not mean that others who had different experiences are false.

[Guest thaiworthy]

well you are right i was basing it on my life ..

but hey ho we are all different .. you come across as being totally liberated but also totally false..

did/do the big parties make up for an unhappy childhood ? dating girls musta felt so wrong and you did that to keep your folks onside, yet all the time you could have just told them.

you come across as being plastic here im afraid.

did your mom tell all her friend you where gay after you told her ?

it musta been so so trendy to have a gay son in N.Y.C.

 

Psychoanalysis a hobby of yours? Why can't you take what people say at face value? There are bisexuals in the world, Thailand is filled with them. It is very unkind to call someone "plastic." Why do you just automatically assume something other than what Michael has told you? That draws more attention to your own sense of values and upbringing, than his.

 

"Trendy" is another word I object to. By superimposing your own feelings about yourself you place a mask on others so you don't have to feel uncomfortable when facing them. How's that for a dose of your own psychoanalysis?

 

well they all die in the end which is why at the end of the day what does anything matter ?

 

When you die, what will matter to you?

[kokopelli]

Some moms are quite happy that their boy is not captured by some domineering bitch of a daughter in law and an equally bitch of a mother in law. So having one gay boy in the family is just the ticket. Also the gay boy will be the one taking care of  his elderly parents.  And some moms are fag hags!

[Guest fountainhall]

they want grandchildren they will lie and say they are happy for you

 

I reckon most parents do want grandchildren, but if there is more than one child, I can't believe they necessarily want all their kids to have children. My parents had 4 grandkids from my siblings. They seemed perfectly happy with that.

 

But I don't believe it would be in any way necessary for someone to lie. When I told my sister, she was initially a bit surprised - partly because she had not guessed and partly because she thought at that time that a gay lifestyle might preclude long-term happiness. Very quickly she got rid of that notion and has always said since then that I should live life as I want to live and enjoy it.

 

i wonder how many gay men tell their parents they go to thailand to have cheap sex with the money boys there ?? another reason for mum to be proud ive no doubt.

 

Why on earth would anyone think it should be necessary to tell their mothers everything they do? Is there any difference between straight guys going off to Spain for a week of booze and birds? Surely telling a mother that you are gay does not mean going into every cranny of one's existence and every little anatomical detail of what one gets up to! 

 

 

but hey ho we are all different .. you come across as being totally liberated but also totally false . . . you come across as being plastic here im afraid.

 

I have made wrong assumptions - as you well know, but I have to add I think yours here are also wrong. Just because someone has formed different views and has a totally different background from a totally different country, has money and chooses to lead a different form of lifestyle has nothing to do with their being "false" or "plastic". Many posters have met Michael. "False" and "plastic" are about the last adjectives I'd use in describing him!

 

Yes, we are all different, thank goodness. Life would be really boring if we weren't.

[Guest timmberty]

michael my childhood was probably no more or no less happy than yours, maybe i didnt feel the need of a parents love as much as you do because i am more then capable of standing up for myself.

FH who mentioned money ? i didnt, altho ive mingled with more than enough multi millionaire to know how disfunctional MOST of those familes are.

TH im having a bit of banter with michael not trying to hot wire his brain.

michael you may have noticed i took the bit about you being bullied off my post, the reason i did that was because it was a bit to personal and nasty, i apologise for putting it on there.

but i still belive parents want grandchildren which is all i was argueing about.

as for the plastic bit .. yuu are in love with beachlover.. someone who exhists only in their own mind, so i'll reserve the right to think on that a bit more.

[Guest thaiworthy]

I reckon most parents do want grandchildren, but if there is more than one child, I can't believe they necessarily want all their kids to have children. My parents had 4 grandkids from my siblings. They seemed perfectly happy with that.

 

Even if I could, I have never wanted children. I'd rather adopt and save the world from one unwanted child. I think this preoccupation breeders have with offspring that looks like them is an ego trip. Good grief, what's the big deal? A mosquito can reproduce!

 

My genes have no place in humanity. I'm not even curious. If I had kids they'd probably turn out like this:

 

[Guest timmberty]

jesus TW just how old are you and why do you lie so much !!!!!!!!!!!!!

they are your children ... why didnt you tell us that michael and FH where your children ??

you are amoungst friends you can be open and honest here.