Guest noy9000 Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 As topic. I recently know a Thai boy who is working full time in Siam area, full time, and it's almost impossible for him to attend lessons in Ram. University since it takes long hours. I'm seriously considering to support him for education, &, his pay at Siam center is approximately 7,000THB p/ mth. Which is affordable if you ask me. Question is every now and than, he ask me for financial favors. It was for his 'sick' sister, but, it was a small amount like 4,000THB. I gave him anyway. The 2nd time was 2,500THB, I didn't helped... because I believe I'm ripped. Today he asked for 2,500THB again. I gave him - my tops is 10,000THB p/ mth; is it reasonable by thai standards? Is it true that Thais may ask for favors if they're particularly close to you? PS: he was a bar boy, but, the bar spirit isn't in him. This I'm absolutely sure. An occasionaly 1,000THB is - "why so much?", don't smoke, nice manners (really, you have to know enough thai boys to tell if they're gentle or the type who will curse you infront & smiling). Quote
Guest Snowkat Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Question is every now and than, he ask me for financial favors. It was for his 'sick' sister, but, it was a small amount like 4,000THB. I gave him anyway. The 2nd time was 2,500THB, I didn't helped... because I believe I'm ripped. Today he asked for 2,500THB again. I gave him - my tops is 10,000THB p/ mth; is it reasonable by thai standards? You've had the sick sister - now look out for:- Sick mother Sick buffalo Buffalo has died and father needs to buy another Father ill/injured and unable to work Pick-up truck broken down Pick-up truck requires servicing Pick-up truck requires new tyres The house roof is leaking The house has been flooded The cooker has packed in - need a new one Sister is pregnant and needs medicine Younger brother/sister needs money to buy books for school Boy needs to go to clinic for medicine The list goes on and on - there is no limit to the ingenuity of the excuses Thai boys will trot out when asking for money For those who may call me cynical - it's better to be a cynic than to be ripped off. Quote
Guest noy9000 Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 You've had the sick sister - now look out for:- Sick mother Sick buffalo Buffalo has died and father needs to buy another Father ill/injured and unable to work Pick-up truck broken down Pick-up truck requires servicing Pick-up truck requires new tyres The house roof is leaking The house has been flooded The cooker has packed in - need a new one Sister is pregnant and needs medicine Younger brother/sister needs money to buy books for school Boy needs to go to clinic for medicine The list goes on and on - there is no limit to the ingenuity of the excuses Thai boys will trot out when asking for money For those who may call me cynical - it's better to be a cynic than to be ripped off. Are we too complex? or are they too simple... at least the guy I'm meeting is more honest. here's his last email which kinda turn me off: "How are you? How about your work? Today i'm test in my university. is so hard for me becuase i'm have little time for read a book. and you? now you have work busy? now in BKK have rain in the afternoon everday and is so hard for my go somewhere. and when i go back to my room by bus is so long time to my room becuase is trabficham. -*- Today to 16 i have to test. i need you send Quote
Gaybutton Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 This question comes up quite often and it is never easy to address because there are so many influencing factors. First, I always try to steer clear of generalizing about the honesty, or lack thereof, of Thai boys. There are honest ones and there are dishonest ones, just like anything else. The fact that he is Thai does not necessarily make him dishonest. It also doesn't necessarily make him honest. Then, there are always the shades of gray . . . meaning sometimes it's the truth and sometimes it isn't. To me, the factors to consider are how long you have known this boy, how close a relationship you have with him, whether you have any reason to suspect he is lying (and the very fact that you posted this message tells me that you probably do have some suspicions), whether you have caught him in lies before, how much he asks for, how often, and why. That E-mail you received, to my mind, is a big red light, and I mean very big. When they start including instructions for how to deposit money directly into their bank account, that's usually where the trouble really starts. I also never heard of a 2500 baht monthly payment into a social security system. That's a new one. That sounds like pure baloney to me. Also, what makes him think you have a relationship going that includes E-mail demands for money? I've seen the same sort of E-mail sent out to "farang" so many times that I've lost count. It's almost as if that E-mail, with a few word changes here and there, comes from some sort of standard instruction book that would appropriately be titled, "How to Soak Your 'Farang.'" Chapter Three: "How to Write a 'Give Me Money' E-mail." They're always the same. I always recommend, if we're talking about a boy with whom you already have or are trying to establish a relationship with, that you set the ground rules as quickly as possible. If you are willing to give him money, then set a limit on how much is comfortable for you and let the boy know how much he'll get, how often he'll get it, and that he is not to even think about asking for more. One thing I believe is a valid generalization is that most of the Thai boys want to take as much financial care of their families as possible. Many are living in tenement conditions and don't really have to, but they send as much money as they possibly can to mama back on the rice farm. That is something very important to them and many are not above cheating "farang" to do it. Also, it is common for the families, once they know that the boy "has a 'farang,'" to think they now have an unlimited ATM. You have to make it clear to the boy that you did not work all your life to end up supporting his family and you're not here to be their benefactor. You need to let him know that his family is not your problem and it is not going to become your problem any more than you expect him to consider your family as his responsibility. After all, you're a boyfriend, not an ATM. If you have gotten to know the family, then you might consider helping out if a truly serious situation occurs, but even then you won't help out unless you can verify it and it is also something you consider to be a serious life or death emergency. Of course, you'll probably get a "you don't trust me" response to that. You know what my answer would be? "You're damned right. I don't trust anybody with my money. If I can't verify it, then you're not getting it." I agree with what Snowkat wrote and he's not being cynical. He's absolutely right. Everybody has emergencies once in a while, but if the number of stories and emergencies seem to occur too often, that's when to either put your foot down or cut your losses, which will probably mean cutting the relationship entirely. It is always best to try to make these things clear to the boy at the outset, long before any problems come up. If you're going to have a relationship with a Thai boy, then money is going to be part of it. It can be very difficult when you receive a tearful phone call telling you all about a terrible thing that's happened, and there you are, half a world away, caught off guard, and trying to decide whether the story is real and whether you should cough up the money. The trouble is, if you do it once, then it is very likely you'll be hit up again and again. On the other hand, if you refuse to help out, and then later find out the boy was telling the truth and it really was a serious emergency, then there goes the relationship. So, the question is how much is the boy worth to you and whether all the variables indicate that he is likely to be telling the truth or just making it up. How many 'emergencies' are you prepared to deal with before you've had enough of it? When it comes to supporting a boy's education I'm very much in favor of that if, and only if, you can verify that he really is going to school and that's what the money, all of it, is being used for. It is best if you can make an arrangement to pay the school directly and have some means of checking on his attendance and progress. Even then you still have to be careful. I know of one boy who readily accepted the idea of paying the school directly. His records showed that he was making good progress too. It turned out that he had several "farang" supporting his education, but it was the "farang" who ended up learning the lesson. The boy had an arrangement with someone at the school. The school would be paid, and whoever was in on the scam with the boy would get a portion of the money and the rest went right back to the boy. Records were falsified and that's where the good progress came in. In your message you said you met him recently? How recent is recent? How long have you actually known him? Do you feel it has been long enough to part with 10,000 baht every month? 10,000 baht per month, if you can comfortably afford it, is a very good amount by Thai standards, especially when the boy doesn't have to do anything to earn it. You would be giving him more than he is earning on his own. If that is a difficult amount for you then I wouldn't do it. So, you have a lot of things to think about. Do you want to be financially involved with him? If the answer is yes, then be prepared because once the money flow starts it's never going to stop, at least as long as the relationship lasts. No matter how much you give him, it's never enough. You also have to take into consideration that he and his family managed to survive long before you entered the picture. Why is it suddenly impossible for them to make it now without help from you? One possible solution is if you are going to give him 10,000 baht per month, then if he asks for more than that, no matter what the emergency or reason is, then that amount will be deducted from the 10,000 baht the following month. The reason I said it's a "possible" solution is because that rarely actually works. One other thing I believe is true. If thoughts such as, "This boy would not lie to me. He's different from all the rest." are entering your head, that's when you know you're really in trouble. Quote
Guest gonefishing Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 I recently know a Thai boy who is working full time in Siam area, full time, and it's almost impossible for him to attend lessons in Ram. University since it takes long hours. I'm seriously considering to support him for education, &, his pay at Siam center is approximately 7,000THB p/ mth. ...at least the guy I'm meeting is more honest.I know the part on test is true. But everytime I check, it's always true. (I gave the mamasan a 100THB note and slowly dig for information.I know it's true that I was his first customer noy 9000, the only thing that surprises me about your post is how you so confidently "know" that things are true! First, and most obviously, it is not just "almost impossible" for him to work full time in the Siam Centre and to attend lessons at Ramindra University - it is impossible, as he cannot be in both places at the one time, which this would require. It would also be impossible, in Bangkok, on 6-7,000 baht per month. IF he is attending university, then he would have to work the night shift - and I do not mean as a security guard! How do you "know" the part about exams is true? It is not currently the exam period. Do you seriously expect any mamasan to tell you the truth about any boy for 100 baht?? Come on please .... You were his first customer?? That day, maybe .... This is not cynicism, it is realism. I have been there too, and know how you feel, but with the benefit of 50:50 hindsight the best advice anyone coming here on holiday can have is to keep it a holiday. Have a holiday romance if you like, but save any long-term relationship for when you are living here. I am sure there must be an exception, but of all the farang I know or have met here who are in stable, long term relationships with a Thai there is not a single one who is living with the boy he originally had a holiday romance with. If giving someone money, for whatever reason, makes you happy then go ahead and do so and feel good, but only give what you can afford to lose and treat it as genuine altruism, expecting nothing in return - that way you will not be disappointed. I agree with Snowkat and Gaybutton fully, but would recommend an alternative to Gaybutton's restrictions on helping the family - find an orphan! Quote
Gaybutton Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 there is not a single one who is living with the boy he originally had a holiday romance with. I agree with Snowkat and Gaybutton fully, but would recommend an alternative to Gaybutton's restrictions on helping the family - find an orphan! I never thought of that, but I think for the most part gonefishing is right about "farang" living here and in a relationship, but not in one with a boy that started as a holiday romance, and that includes me. I'm sure there are a few, but not many. I LOVE that idea, gonefishing. Find an orphan. Now that will save you a ton of money . . . unless of course he lies and tells you a few dead water buffalo stories first to get what he can out of you while the getting is good. A very good friend of mine has his own solution. He always says, "If you want love from a Thai boy, rent it for a night or two and then send him on his way." Quote
Guest noy9000 Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 First, and most obviously, it is not just "almost impossible" for him to work full time in the Siam Centre and to attend lessons at Ramindra University - it is impossible, as he cannot be in both places at the one time, which this would require. It would also be impossible, in Bangkok, on 6-7,000 baht per month. IF he is attending university, then he would have to work the night shift - and I do not mean as a security guard #1. I was in a foreign country. Than I talked to him over msn messenger, he told me that he is working in this particular shop; I visit the shop without giving advance notice. And it turn out that he has been working there for 2 months because the next will be his commission month. (I know the management of Siam center, who is the neutral group). #2. The exam thing was last month. I think it's the school holiday now for him (or he takes the leave to do work FT in Siam center), Ram university don't need attendence.. students can just take the test (and if they pass, they get their degree). I called Ram university to verify if there's a test going on, they said yes (they have the international relations section). #3. I am staying in Bangkok now. so I met him recently (which is 2 days ago) #4. It's also true that he worked in the bar for only 2 days. Apparently the mamasan says so when I asked, or, when my farang friend do the 'thai-thing' to ask for me. #5. My intention is to give him his pay from Siam Center (which is 7,000thb p/ mth) & I'll pay for his university fees, I'll expect him to attend it daily. One other thing I believe is true. If thoughts such as, "This boy would not lie to me. He's different from all the rest." are entering your head, that's when you know you're really in trouble.The other reason of pointing out that it's a different story is because he believes that I can't speak Thai. I heard this when he came with a friend "Now we work in Siam center. no more bar in the future" I'm assuming both play or work. I'm an act silly foreigner. The problem is I always doubt another person's intention. But on 3 occasion, he hasn't been lying & I can't detect anything wrong with him. He didn't have a mobile phone, his msn messenger has only 4 contacts (3 thais - I think it's thai, because it's thai charactors & me), don't smoke (which is a plus), prudent - spent his entire monday in his room because he can't afford to travel around. I don't want to lead myself that I find someone unique - what are the chances of meeting a decent chap from a bar? So, the question is how much is the boy worth to you and whether all the variables indicate that he is likely to be telling the truth or just making it up. How many 'emergencies' are you prepared to deal with before you've had enough of it? All those that I've gathered is that he is not lying, but, I've raised the red flag for 2,500thb for social security & my sick sister. That's in the span of 2 months... emergency is 1. Quote
Guest noy9000 Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 To GayThailand: when you wrote this "What confuses many Western guys is that after several dates, your new friend may start asking you for small amounts of money. Lots of guys freak out at this point thinking they have started dating a gold digger. Don Quote
Gaybutton Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 It seems to me, after reading your post, noy9000, that you are well aware of the possibilities and you are not being naive. You've checked up on him to the best of your ability and found that at least most of what he is telling you has been true. Apparently you still don't know whether the social security thing is true or not, but so far the rest seems good. Based on that, my free advice would be to follow your plan, but watch very carefully. The fact that you speak Thai, but he does not know you speak Thai, is also good. As long as you are in a position to be able to verify what he tells you, then I see no harm in helping him. One of the few things Ronald Reagan ever said that I like was, "Trust, but verify." That's good advice and I think you intend to do just that. Quote
Guest pete1969 Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 Thai boys and money. It is the never ending frustration in almost all Thai-farang relationships. It is also very difficult for Westerners as we don't have the same relationship paradigms in our cultures, and we rarely have a clue as to how it all works in terms of Thai relationships and financial support. One cannot generalize. Some Thai boys cheat. Some don't. Some will have a string of emergencies that are all valid and others may not have an emergency for some time. Some will take your money and gamble and drink or do drugs. Some will take your money and invest it to better themselves. Every boy is unique and every relationship is unique. I do know from both my current and my former Thai bfs that there is an insurance investment where one can invest a monthly amount and get a a return later on that reminds me of term life insurance or even a bank CD. I don't know the exact details but know that my last BF put 2,000 baht a month into such a fund. Maybe this is the type of fund the boy is referring to when he calls it a social security investment. Just a thought that could be way off base. The best bet is to work out with your boy what amount he needs in monthly allowance, investigate any emergencies to be sure they are real, and never spend more than you can honestly afford. Pete Quote
Guest YardenUK Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 One cannot generalize. ...............Every boy is unique and every relationship is unique. Absolutely right. Sometimes I read the messages on this board and think i am on a different orbit of Planet Gay Thailand with my bf. But of course, maybe a difference is he never worked in a bar and I didnt find him that way. He isnt from a wealthy background by any stretch of the imagination - i stayed with his family for over 3 weeks recently- and even they never asked me for 1 baht (i was expecting the sob stories - i was expecting the extended family to come and see what the could wrench from me - but that was only cos of what i read on this board ha ha ha). Towards the end of the stay I even suggested we give his mother a gift - but i was told definitely not as his mother doesnt like gifts from anyone! Of course I support my bf - but wouldnt i support my wife if i was straight? He sees my money as our money which is what i asked him to do from the beginning - he carries the wallet, he goes to the ATM, he pays when the bills come - in a way I have tried to empower him to respect money and learn its worth, and also to respect "our" money and understand its limits. The lucky bit is he isnt greedy and doesn't have a family who see me as the rich farang. He is also totally honest which helps............ except when I ask him how do i look before we go out and he always says "amazing".........you see some lies are just great Noy, relax and enjoy what you have is my advice. You may have found another hidden gem! As Pete said every guy (thai or otherwise) is different and every relationship has their own unique dynamics. Quote
Gaybutton Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 I fully agree with both pete1969 and YardenUK. YardenUK is one of the lucky ones and he is not alone in that. I have three friends who have absolutely fantastic boyfriends, all three of whom I would trust completely. I hope it works out that way between you and your boyfriend. Let us know how it all plays out. Best of luck to you. Quote
TotallyOz Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 he carries the wallet, he goes to the ATM, he pays when the bills come - in a way I have tried to empower him to respect money and learn its worth, and also to respect "our" money and understand its limits. The lucky bit is he isnt greedy and doesn't have a family who see me as the rich farang. He is also totally honest which helps............ except when I ask him how do i look before we go out and he always says "amazing".........you see some lies are just great Thanks for sharing. I love it when things work out so well for everyone. I have a boyfriend now that I totally trust. He has the ATM and he takes care of things as well. He never has asked me for anything big. His birthday was 2 days ago. He turned 23. I have known him for 3 years but only as the best friend of my ex. He moved in with me 3 months ago. He had taken great care of me for the last 3 years and that friendship turned into something different. He is allowed to take a certain amount from the ATM and put in his account weekly but he has never gone above that. He has never asked for more or a special gift. Many times over the past 3 months he says thank you. He is so appreciative of everything I do for him and of the life he now leads. I normally don't give special gifts for anyone's Birthday but for his I did. I woke him up at 11AM and gave him a piece of paper. On it was a clue to the next clue. There were about 10 clues all together. At the end, it led him to the mailbox. The last note said, "Look to your right, walk over and enjoy." He did and was in tears for minutes. He was jumping up and down and so happy. It is the first gift I have given to anyone that I felt really appreciated it. I think the friendship I had with him for over 3 years was the key to the success. On top of that, he has been totally honest and upfront with me. There are special boys here. I don't find them often as I often look in the wrong places. But, they are here and when you find one, it is amazing. my tops is 10,000THB p/ mth; is it reasonable by thai standards? Is it true that Thais may ask for favors if they're particularly close to you? I think it all really depends on the boy and what you want from him. I normally give a boy 20k plus each month if they have no other expenses. I find this makes the boy happy and allows him to take care of his family, etc. I have a few rules I place on a guy. One of them is never ask me for more money for family or emergencies. I don't take care of an entire family or a village. I will take care of my boyfriend and any expenses related to him. I pay for school and dentists and etc. I also take them shopping for clothes, etc. The 20-30K a month I give is totally for their own use and it really up to them. I know of many farangs who give the boy 10-15 and get the same results. I know of many farangs who do not want a money boy and ask the boy to work full-time and the farang only pays for expenses. It is really all up to what the 2 of you negotiate. I am always very clear up front and make sure both parties get what they want and are happy with the deal. The best bet is to work out with your boy what amount he needs in monthly allowance, investigate any emergencies to be sure they are real, and never spend more than you can honestly afford. Pete Very good advice Pete! This also helps Sunee Plaza BTW. Why? The ones that spend more than they can afford end up as jumpers. If they jump off Yensabi, a whole slew of people go over from Sunee and watch. This affects business. JK Great advice! For those who may call me cynical - it's better to be a cynic than to be ripped off. You always make me laugh. Thanks for the list. I reallly thought I was the only one that heard the house was flooded story. Quote
Guest Aunty Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 I supported a Thai boy for a year once. I'd never even met him before I started. I sent him 5000 baht a month as I figured that was sufficient to meet the needs of a student. Students after all are not supposed to be living in the lap of luxury, a bit of poverty goes with the territory! I got hit with the "please send money urgently" requests all the time. Sister is pregnant and I need money to buy food for the baby. Mother has diabetes and is very sick and can't walk and can't see properly. I need to travel to the deep-south to be with her. etc., etc., etc. I never had any way of knowing whether these requests for additional funds were true or not. There is no way of knowing. All I knew was that every month I sent him 5000 baht, that was the deal, that was what I wanted to send him and that's all I did send him too. As I said to him, my job was to support him so he could finish his studies, as without a degree, his chances of getting a good job were slim. My hope was that by supporting him for a year, (12-months so he could afford to finish his degree) this would allow him to support himself for the rest of his life. Sometimes that's all people need, a lucky break and a bit of help and support. I'm very aware of the role that family plays in a Thai's life, and the responsibility each Thai has to support his or her family. I also know that family means family in the old fashioned sense - the extended family - and not the nuclear or single parent family that we are now so familiar with in the West. So I used this as my foil back to him. Sister needed money - where is your family? it is their responsibility to support your sister. What about your brother, he's working, right? Mother's sick. What about your aunties, can't they take their sister in and look after her for a while? And finally I was always more than ready to say, well I Quote
Guest Snowkat Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 I really thought I was the only one that heard the house was flooded story. It was new to me until I talked last week on the phone to my pal who lives in BKK and who was tapped for money by one of his regulars using that reason - might even be true in this case given the large amount of flooding in the area the b/f's family lives !! Quote
Gaybutton Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 I supported a Thai boy for a year once. That is quite a story, Aunty. I don't know why you did this for him - you didn't say - but it's a very commendable thing that you did. I'm glad you had the fortitude to withstand the constant pleas for even more money. You made a deal and insisted on sticking to it, and that's really the only way. Your story reinforces a few important points. One is, the family problems are not, and should not be, your problem. The family managed to survive before a "farang" was in the picture and my feeling is, as John Huston said to Humphrey Bogart in Treasure of the Sierra Madre, " From now on you'll have to make your way through life without my assistance." Another point is that no matter how much you give, it's never enough. My opinion is if a boy wants your money, especially if he is asking for more than you offered, then he has to do something to earn it. Going to bed with you once in a while ain't it . . . In Aunty's case, there was no sexual relationship in the first place. You said, "because at heart, I'm a cold cold witch." I don't believe that. This boy owes you a debt of gratitude that he probably will never fully comprehend. Quote
Guest gonefishing Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 what are the chances of meeting a decent chap from a bar? As good or as bad as meeting one anywhere else. My boyfriend worked in a bar, he is not ashamed of it and neither am I. If either of you are, move on as it will never work. I'm not a farang, I'm a 23 yr old asian guy ^^ & I'm chinese. I don't think it makes a-lot of differences between thai-foreigner relationship, does it? It makes a vast amount of difference, and if you cannot see that maybe you are not just acting at being stupid! Firstly, you and he are the same age, not from his father's (or even grandfather's) generation; the likely differences /similarities must surely be obvious. Secondly, you are Asian, not Western; again, the differences / similarities in terms of culture alone must be obvious. But of course, maybe a difference is he never worked in a bar and I didnt find him that way. ..... He isnt from a wealthy background by any stretch of the imagination - i stayed with his family for over 3 weeks recently...... Of course I support my bf - but wouldnt i support my wife if i was straight? He sees my money as our money which is what i asked him to do from the beginning - he carries the wallet, he goes to the ATM, he pays when the bills come Why should there be a difference if he "never worked in a bar"? There are good and bad everywhere, and those who believe it makes a difference are talking not from experience but from prejudice. If you stayed with his family for 3 weeks he may not be wealthy, but he is obviously not poor; poor means no land, no house, no money and little, if any, spare food. When I visited my boyfriend's village no-one asked me for anything either (apart from the village drunk, who stung my boyfriend for a half-bottle of local whisky!) and this was a genuinely poor village. Despite what some would have you believe, begging is not a Thai trait any more than it is a Western one. I hope you would support your wife if you were straight, but you would also probably live with her 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year; those supporting their "boyfriends" from afar do not, so this is a different case entirely. Just how much of your money does he see as "our money"? How much of it is in your wallet or available from the ATM? I somehow doubt if he has access to it all. I trust my boyfriend, so many things including land, cars, etc, are in his name, but I can see no reason in putting temptation in his way unnecessarily. Irrespective of whose name they are in, it is understood (and does not need to be said) that some things are "mine", some are "his" and some are "ours". As for trusting him with my ATM card, on one occasion I had to ask him to help me with the ATM as the instructions were very blurred and only in Thai; he set it up for me, but deliberately (but not pointedly) walked away while I put in the PIN number. Some farangs make a big issue of giving a Thai their wallet to carry, as if it is some sort of sacred symbol - genuine trust is earnt and is mutual, and this sort of show has nothing to do with it. My friend wasn't a bar boy, and had never being a bar boy. Why does this worry you, and obviously others, so much? Some of my friends make a big thing about not taking "bar boys" and I have never been able to understand why it is so important to them. It is not the money, as the boys are still paid "expenses" (above what some consider the going rate) or are "supported" as boyfriends; it cannot be for safety / security, as most bars have copies of the boys ID cards / house papers; I doubt if it is because they think "safe sex"is any more likely. I used to think it was because of simple prejudice, looking down on bar-boys as being somehow socially inferior (rather than generally socially deprived), but I am starting to think that it is more to do with those concerned convincing themselves that they are somehow superior not to the bar-boys but to those who have to resort to offing or living with bar-boys - present company excepted, of course! Quote
Gaybutton Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 Why should there be a difference if he "never worked in a bar"? There are good and bad everywhere, and those who believe it makes a difference are talking not from experience but from prejudice. That is a very good point and I agree with you. I think part of it is that people convince themselves that a relationship with a bar boy automatically means a relationship with someone interested only in money, not the person, and it will always be that way. After all, we're constantly talking about how much to tip bar boys, about how they're working for a living, how some are in cahoots with mama-sans involved in scams, how there will always be pleas for money, etc. It almost always has something to do with money. That causes people to become prejudiced and frightened that involvement with a bar boy is bound to produce negative consequences. Then we hear all about how bar boys are nothing but prostitutes, as if that is necessarily a negative thing and also the only thing to even think about when taking a bar boy "off." You're the customer. He's the service. And he's perfectly willing to go "off" with a complete stranger to be paid for sex. Just like anything else, many times that is true and many times it isn't. People tend to generalize and part of that generalization is too often looking down on bar boys. Some bar boys are the nicest, most honest people you'll ever meet. Some are the scum of the earth. The problem is the perception that it is most likely a bar boy will turn out to be more of the scum type than the good person type. Because of that people looking for a relationship often try to find people other than bar boys. I suppose they feel that the odds of finding someone actually interested in a genuine relationship, rather than a money relationship, are much greater if the person they find isn't a bar boy and never was. "Farang" also tend to think that the only reason a young, good looking Thai boy would have in order to be interested in a relationship with someone two to three times his own age, from a foreign country, is nothing other than money. I believe money is definitely a part of it, especially at the outset, but whether it will stay that way depends on the individual. The irony is that a vast number of bar boys became bar boys in the first place because they are looking for a relationship with a "farang." Where are they most likely to find gay "farang"? In the bars. Quote
Guest noy9000 Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 I really hate to put some words this way. I know it's kinda offensive, please forgive me, I was in a chatroom the other day where there's a transsexual girl who is 31. She is going out with a 64 year old man, I don't know how your thought it, but, I felt abit sorry. We, even me as an asian tend to have the progressive thoughts that we believe that everyone follows our logic. That is arrogant. don't even get me started to explain that. In a normal situation, i may just figure out the problem myself - but if it's a thai relationship, I'll have to ask to see if anyone agrees with me. Okay. back to my original thread, I'm starting to have more funny thoughts & rational suspicion. I'm following the advise given by most of you, I did the laying of what I'm going to do & willing to do on the tables. I told him clearly that I'll only be bothered about him, not his family or friends etc. & I make a mistake, I played a silly psychiatric game which is suppose to give me more accurate answers & now I have more questions. If this is going to be a ATM relationship, than, I figured that his reaction will be rather active in the chase. So, the question i asked was: "do you have any other gay friends to introduce me? those relationship kind" (before this question is some very serious discussion) Evidently he got emotional. The reply from msn messenger came fast, it will normall take a while for him to type something. My question: do you have any gay friends to introduce me? the relationship type of friends. I was expecting him to be active (which is the most direct sign of 'LOOK OUT'), but, he was passive instead. (actual unedited msn message exchange, it's right after a discussion about me not wanting to know his family problems & that it has nothing to do with me) His reply as follows: 1. no have everything.i don't have. 2. i don't have money and everything. 3. have my body only one me: relax. what are you trying to say? 4. i don't have everything. me: sorry, you still have your job, your family, your friends. 5. you don't know about my family me: and you don't know mine. don't start the sad things. okay? 6. why i come in BKK 7. why i go to boy bar 8. why i work give money to my family is much money 9. and why i cry everyday me: (trying to figure out no. you mean why you work, to give your family so much money? 10. it can't to tell you to know. 11. i don't know i can tell you about... (dangerous zone, i raise a flag and said) me: everybody have problem 12. in my family is so bad problem me: i don't know yours. but let's not talk about this. 13. but now we want so much money for bad problem. me: Okay. don't talk about it. I don't really want to know. 14. in morning i send money to they finish. but i don't know when they want agian... me: don't talk about it. I really don't want to know 15. sorry . i talk about that. *blah blah blah blah* than the cautionary part: 16. i think i afried. me: afriad of what? 17. for everything. me: I don't know, please explain. 18. end time in internet.may i go. YOU IS FRIST MY HEART 19. ANF FRIST MY LIFT 20. THANK YOU FOR EVERY THING Maybe I'm over-reacting, but, taking into consideration that this boy has always been honest (and particularly so in the earlier discussion, when i said that i'll give him his 7000thb siam center pay, he said he earns 6000thb per month). I'm starting to wonder what is really going on. A questions for those who did it before. What's the reaction the boy should be like if your discussion is about not wanting to care about his family problems? Quote
Gaybutton Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 A questions for those who did it before. What's the reaction the boy should be like if your discussion is about not wanting to care about his family problems? There is no standard answer other than to say that the average Thai boy will not be pleased to know that you're not about to start taking care of his family problems for him. Unless you are willing to start taking responsibility for both his life and the family's lives too, then you have no alternative other than to say no, and mean it. I would make him understand that you are willing to listen if he wants to talk about his family problems, and even make suggestions, but it's their problem, not yours, and you simply are not going to be personally or financially involved. They'll have to take care of their own problems as best as they can. It also depends on you, what you wish to do, and your own financial standing. If you are quite wealthy and parting with enough money to help the family is not a problem in any way, that's one thing. I know several "farang" who have helped a boy's family to the point of even building new homes for them and they have no regrets about it. They're happy they did it. I also know several "farang" who spent a lot of money to help the family, but the pleas for money did not stop. There was almost no gratitude and the relationship between the "farang" and the boy eventually came to an end anyway. You have said that this is a fairly new relationship. You hardly know him yet. You said you're going to help him with his school expenses, which is something for which he ought to be very grateful, but already that is not enough. At first, after everything you revealed about what's going on with him, it seemed as if you might be one of the lucky ones. Now I'm not so sure. As far as you know he has been honest with you, but that alone is not going to work if he is also going to try to get you to take care of his family problems for him. In that chat he did not actually ask you to pay to take care of whatever the problems are, but starting at number 13 he came close. It is obvious that he is hoping you will offer to help and he will probably keep trying. So far you are doing exactly what I would recommend, basically telling him you are sorry for his family problems, but that is not your concern and you really don't want to hear about it, especially at this point in your relationship. You are young, well educated, and apparently financially well off. Especially at your age you should be out there having a wonderful time. If you want to be involved in a relationship at this point in your life then I think you should be involved with someone who is bringing joy to your life, not a set of problems. If this person takes the hint and stops bringing up his family problems, and if he is also bringing that joy to your life, then you have to decide whether you want to continue with him or not. If you do continue with him, I would advise doing things very slowly, but be ready to end the relationship if he persists with the family problems and the joy stops. I think the bottom line is this: He has raised some 'red flags.' Are they enough 'red flags' to cause you to be unhappy with the relationship now? Do you feel uneasy with him now as a result of that chat? If the answer is yes, then I would say give him what you already promised to give him and then end it with him. I have a "gut feeling" that this relationship is eventually going to end. If you made any mistakes I think it was making the offer of financial help to go to school far too soon. The problem is usually what I've said before . . . that no matter what you do and no matter how much money you give, it's never enough. Remember, you're there to be his boyfriend, not his family's benefactor. Quote
Guest YardenUK Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 Why should there be a difference if he "never worked in a bar"? There are good and bad everywhere, and those who believe it makes a difference are talking not from experience but from prejudice. If you stayed with his family for 3 weeks he may not be wealthy, but he is obviously not poor; poor means no land, no house, no money and little, if any, spare food. When I visited my boyfriend's village no-one asked me for anything either (apart from the village drunk, who stung my boyfriend for a half-bottle of local whisky!) and this was a genuinely poor village. Despite what some would have you believe, begging is not a Thai trait any more than it is a Western one. I hope you would support your wife if you were straight, but you would also probably live with her 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year; those supporting their "boyfriends" from afar do not, so this is a different case entirely. Just how much of your money does he see as "our money"? How much of it is in your wallet or available from the ATM? I somehow doubt if he has access to it all. I trust my boyfriend, so many things including land, cars, etc, are in his name, but I can see no reason in putting temptation in his way unnecessarily. Irrespective of whose name they are in, it is understood (and does not need to be said) that some things are "mine", some are "his" and some are "ours". As for trusting him with my ATM card, on one occasion I had to ask him to help me with the ATM as the instructions were very blurred and only in Thai; he set it up for me, but deliberately (but not pointedly) walked away while I put in the PIN number. Some farangs make a big issue of giving a Thai their wallet to carry, as if it is some sort of sacred symbol - genuine trust is earnt and is mutual, and this sort of show has nothing to do with it. Why does this worry you, and obviously others, so much? Some of my friends make a big thing about not taking "bar boys" and I have never been able to understand why it is so important to them. It is not the money, as the boys are still paid "expenses" (above what some consider the going rate) or are "supported" as boyfriends; it cannot be for safety / security, as most bars have copies of the boys ID cards / house papers; I doubt if it is because they think "safe sex"is any more likely. I used to think it was because of simple prejudice, looking down on bar-boys as being somehow socially inferior (rather than generally socially deprived), but I am starting to think that it is more to do with those concerned convincing themselves that they are somehow superior not to the bar-boys but to those who have to resort to offing or living with bar-boys - present company excepted, of course! Just a couple of points - I added the post only to demonstrate to Noy that he may well have found a really great guy - i wasn't extolling the virtues of my relationship! sometimes fellow posters need to chill out and calm down. You say he isn't poor - you do not know frankly. And i do not think that this board is an appropriate forum to begin theorising on poverty levels And as a matter of fact i have seen my bf almost every day - it is not a long distance relationship(I am not strong enough to handle that kind of relationship) - he came to the Asian country where I work, and I also got him a visa to come to London this summer - we have now been together back in Thailand for the past 2 months, and will depart again soon ......together And your last paragraph completely distorts what i was trying to point out - see my first sentence above - I am not saying bar boys are somehow socially inferior. I feel you have read far too much into what i posted - the spirit of the post was just to show that it is not a life of fear, lies and heartbreak when we find a Thai boyfriend. Quote
Guest noy9000 Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 At first, after everything you revealed about what's going on with him, it seemed as if you might be one of the lucky ones. Now I'm not so sure. As far as you know he has been honest with you, but that alone is not going to work if he is also going to try to get you to take care of his family problems for him. In that chat he did not actually ask you to pay to take care of whatever the problems are, but starting at number 13 he came close. It is obvious that he is hoping you will offer to help and he will probably keep trying. If you do continue with him, I would advise doing things very slowly, but be ready to end the relationship if he persists with the family problems and the joy stops. I think the bottom line is this: He has raised some 'red flags.' Are they enough 'red flags' to cause you to be unhappy with the relationship now? Do you feel uneasy with him now as a result of that chat? If the answer is yes, then I would say give him what you already promised to give him and then end it with him. I have a "gut feeling" that this relationship is eventually going to end. If you made any mistakes I think it was making the offer of financial help to go to school far too soon. The problem is usually what I've said before . . . that no matter what you do and no matter how much money you give, it's never enough. Remember, you're there to be his boyfriend, not his family's benefactor. I was thinking if I got the hidden gem as well, because, everything just seem so perfect about him - except that at age 23, I'll feel horribly old if he ask me for money than what I'm offering to help. It's just a feeling, I may look at it different if I'm 4x. definately. I don't know. Should i tell him that we shouldn't contact anymore? is there a subtle way to carry this message across? I'm the 'say-it-in-your-face' guy. For the record, I don't feel uneasy after the chat - especially this is the first time I talk about it, I anticipate reactions. I'm just not exactly sure if this reaction will be right - for a boy who turns down an airport job (because it's too 'high', meaning social class). Assumingly he is a traditional thai player, than, asking for money is weird. Than, money can be about greed & it can also be survival - so asking for them can also be a problem of needs. Especially you're in Thailand. Because on many occasion, i was wrong to doubt (with that verification done, I feel like @#$@#%$@#) - this leaves me the space to consider if I'm really being cynical. I remember in the beginning of how it started. He says he is not good enough for me, I told him (honestly), It's not him - it's me, I think I liked him because he's good looking & I could be a butterfly. If I'm going to be cynical in a relationship, I'll be definately a heart-breaker. Quote
Guest noy9000 Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 Thursday afternoon. came some SMSes, I think he's starting to accept the proposal (but I still believe the $$ question will pop up soon). 1. hello.good afternoon.where you go today? 2. Are you o.k. If me only study? 3. when u finish work just talking. This come after a late-night discussion of what I'm willing and not willing to do. I'm beginning to believe he is compromising, any thoughts if I should compromise abit? to what extent? I'm sorry that it's all about me. I'm really a novice, and, it seems only in Gaythailand's nuts-and-bolts have my relationship question answered. Quote
Gaybutton Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 It is difficult to address your most recent questions. I think the main question you have to think about is whether you want a relationship at all and, if you do, is this the right person with whom to establish one. Because none of us know you or know your boyfriend, it is also difficult to advise you whether to compromise. I can tell you, if it were me, I would be thinking about why I would even consider compromising. If there is a legitimate, verifiable reason, a reason with which you truly agree, then that is what you have to think about. The problem is that you have already told him what you are willing to do for him. If you give in to additional pleas for money I can virtually guarantee that it will never stop. You have been writing about the things you are trying to do for him. What is he doing for you? Is he doing anything to earn the help you want to provide? One more thing to consider. I wrote that my "gut feeling" tells me that this is a relationship that won't last and will eventually end. What does your own "gut feeling" tell you? If you think it won't last, then the sooner you get out of it, the better. If you really do feel that your boyfriend is the right person for you, then I would advise the same thing I already said . . . "Trust, but verify." Quote
bedbugy Posted November 9, 2006 Posted November 9, 2006 my boy friend whom iv'e know and loved for over 6 years goes like this i put down this year for a new automatic moter bike suzuki at 1890 baht a month this is because he lends mine so i got him one he eats at my home if he wants sleeps at my home if he wants does is laudry at my home i enjoy sex when i want i pay for this and that whats the hassle with alot of folk if you want sex try standing at piccadilly circus and see what you get for 150 pounds stering in cold and damp london get a life ao wish apon a star and spend some dosh Quote
