Guest thaiworthy Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 At last, the voice of reason in the wilder-ness! Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Apologies to timmberty as my posts are way overlong - again!. But this topic is one close to my heart. I have a few friends who work for Titan and they do not do any films without condoms . . . It really just depends on the guy and what they want. In the USA, there are enough companies to choose from that the guy can decide which one he wants to go with. That seems not quite the rosy picture some of the 'stars' themselves portray. Former 'performer Satine Phoenix rather defused this suggestion in an article last year - “When I first started doing porn, I was told, ‘you can ask for condoms if you want,’ but after being in porn for a little while, it’s harder for a girl to ask for condoms,” she said. “We have these grandiose ideas in porn that you have all these options but the reality is you don’t, because if you don’t do something, there’s another girl that will.” Writing in the Daily Beast in favor of Measure B, performer Aurora Snow said that the pressure is sometimes more explicit. Directors have attempted to coerce her to perform with untested actors on set. When she resists, she fears for her job. “Will they hire me again? I don’t know. That’s a risk I take when I speak up for my own safety concerns,” she wrote. http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/10/25/california_s_measure_b_what_s_so_bad_about_condoms_in_porn.html Of course there is always another side of an argument and another viewpoint. The rather cute Mr. Deen said recently in The Huffington Post of the new law - "I am disappointed. Not particularly about the law but about my community of adult entertainers being continually bullied and used by others" Bullied and abused? Oh dear, Mr. Deen! Somewhat melodramatic, don't you think? Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Let's recall what TAKE CARE is about. This from its website - Prevention of STIs is vastly less expensive than the time, cost, energy and resources required for their treatment. Except for abstinence, condom use during every encounter involving the possible exchange of bodily fluids is the best prevention method available. TAKE CARE!! is a volunteer charity project, formed in January 2005, at the suggestion of Dr. Philippe Seur. Funds are generated through donations and fund-raising events. To date, 200,000 condoms and 100,000 lubes have been distributed to over sixty participating venues located in Pattayaland, Sunee Plaza and Jomtien Complex. Packs are regularly provided to these venues free of charge for free distribution to their staff. This is a project for Thailand and I believe it is more to help the boys who work in the bars here. I am sure we all have huge admiration for Dr. Phillippe and the work he does. But even if he had not been behind this charity, I believe it is wholly worthwhile. I have no interest in seeing my name in lights, but I'll happily make a small donation. Quote
KhorTose Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Michael, I feel a need to join the chorus and fully support the laws that would require condoms on all sex video participants. i worked in management for years in a food processing company and heard tons of complaints from some of the other management staff about all the OSHA's (Occupational Health and Safety Administration) strict rules, and yet I was also very aware of how careful we were to insure a low accident rate by following these rules. First Amendment be damned, the government has every right to regulate a commercial industry to insure the workers are not exposed to unnecessary danger or risk. Thank God we have moved away from profit over worker safety in our industries and, like it or not, this is just one more industry that needs health and safety regulations. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 At last, the voice of reason in the wilder-ness! Well, a voice that agrees with you at least. I realize that most of you disagree with me but I stand firm on belief that personal rights far outweigh any government intervention. I want the right to do with my body what I want. I want the ability to do anything with another adult that I want. I do not want the government to interfere with these things in any way. I have few if any exceptions for this. You will find bad people in the porn industry and you will find them in every other profession. You may bring up many examples of stories of people coerced to do something they prefer not to do for money. I just can't think of one example where this happens in Thailand. Can anyone? Can you? Think about it. Think. Humm. Humm. Bars? Bar boys? No, no, they love having sex with old men they don't find attractive. Wait, I have heard they love fat and old men. Really? You heard that? It must be true. Right. Right? NO It is not true. They don't enjoy it. They do it for the money. Anyone that doesn't believe that the chance for a better life (money) is involved in the equation is really in denial. The same in true in the porn industry. People do things for money. But, the ones I know and have talked to have always made their own choices. OK Michael, that is not fair you say. You are right. It may not be fair but it is true. I don't begrudge some guys for going to Thailand for the sex industry. It is what most go there for. I just don't like it when anyone tries to interfere with someone elses sexual desires with another adult. I hate it when someone who fucks bareback says that fucking a ladyboy is sick and perverted. Or, when someone that gets fucked by a ladyboy says that someone that eats pussy is perverted or when someone that hires escorts tries to judge someone else for dressing in drag and I could go on and one and on. What each of you do in the privacy of your bedroom with another adult is your business. What these guys in the porn company does is their business. It can be regulated by the local authorities but when that happens, don't think for one second that they will never come after you for what you do. Of course, all this is just my opinion and as my mother said, "opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one." I know this and I don't expect anyone to change their way of thinking based on my BS arguments. At the same time, you will not change mine based on yours. Good luck to the people in LA in getting this banned and I hope that the next thing they ban is prostitution. Wait. Sorry, that is already banned. But, IMHO, it should not be. I firmly believe that porn and the sex industry helps people to have stable mental conditions. If there were less oppression and more openness about sexuality there would be less sexual crimes. Again, just my opinion. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I just don't like it when anyone tries to interfere with someone elses sexual desires with another adult . . . What each of you do in the privacy of your bedroom with another adult is your business You may be surprised - but I agree with you! I may not like what some people get up to, but if they are informed, mature adults, then that is their matter - not mine. But - and its a big 'but' - what a porn actor gets up to on a movie set is quite different from what he gets up to in the privacy of a bedroom. Because it is not private. What happens becomes material for all sorts of voyeurs (and yes, I include myself in that group for I do sometimes enjoy porn movies). It is edited, packaged, distributed and sold to all manner of folks - some of whom will unquestionably be of young and impressionable age. These are mostly not "informed and mature" and may well tend to adopt such behaviour for the very reason they believe it to be informed and mature. I don't believe this has anything to do with personal liberty. This is a medical health issue. In my view, this then presents a conflict between the private right and the greater public good - not merely the good of the individuals involved. Given the tens of millions who have died and the millions still being infected worldwide, everyone in the porn industry has to accept that they can not be wholly free to do as they wish. I am glad the voters in California agree. Let's also not forget one of the arguments in favour of Measure B - Porn producers claim that requiring condoms will be a financial hardship on their industry. However, the lifetime cost of treating an HIV infection is more than $567,000. Since these performers are not provided health insurance by porn producers, this cost is most likely to be borne by taxpayers of Los Angeles County, as health care provider of last resort. The taxpayers are subsidizing the porn business. http://www.smartvoter.org/2012/11/06/ca/la/meas/B/ The arguments in 'favour' are pretty convincing in my book. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I am glad the voters in California agree. They don't agree. It was a small area in LA and it means that those companies if the law is enforced will simply move to another area like Long Beach or Palm Springs or San Francisco where they don't have those laws. It accomplishes very little in the end other than to highlight the law and move a billion dollar industry to another area. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Understandably, perhaps, that rather nicely deflects the argument! But what is the value of personal freedom and a billion dollar industry over innocent lives? Hopefully the citizens in those other communities will take it upon themselves to pass a similar law. If not, perhaps they will start to tax the porn movie industry at such a high level that it will cover the costs of any HIV 'accidents' during 'shooting'. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Understandably, perhaps, that rather nicely deflects the argument! But what is the value of personal freedom and a billion dollar industry over innocent lives? Hopefully the citizens in those other communities will take it upon themselves to pass a similar law. If not, perhaps they will start to tax the porn movie industry at such a high level that it will cover the costs of any HIV 'accidents' during 'shooting'. If I agree, can we also agree to tax the money boy industry in Thailand as the same high level? After all, more guys in Thailand are infected with HIV based on their sex with men than in the porn industry in USA. So, the next time anyone goes to a bar, the new off fee will include a 2,000 USD surcharge. Oops..bye bye 90 percent of single gay men who visit or live in Thailand. Also, lets tax the fast food restaurants for all obesity related health issues. After all, it is their fault and not the individual. Right? And, now can we also tax the gun industry for each and every handgun death each year? Love it. Also, to get more money, I want to tax every single person with HIV that has sex with a person without HIV. Hell, lets just go ahead and tax gay men for all sexually transmitted related issues. Those queers just fuck and fuck and fuck and a tax would really teach them. Plus, we know they have the extra spending money as they don't have families. I am kidding on the above for those that don't see that. Actually, porn companies are required by law to cover worker's compensation and have insurance related to a whole plethora of other things. So if a workers gets hurt on the job in any way, they have a claim. I wish the same were true for bar boys in Thailand. Quote
Bob Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I don't believe this has anything to do with personal liberty. This is a medical health issue. In my view, this then presents a conflict between the private right and the greater public good - not merely the good of the individuals involved. While I agree with almost all your arguments, this issue does relate to personal liberty; however, the government's right to protect society as a whole in my view simply trumps the personal liberty of a professional porn actor to "feel the skin" so to speak. Yet, there's no reason in the world why the commercial porn industry ought to think it's somehow exempt from reasonable governmental regulation to protect the workers as a group and society as a whole. Michael, you're continuing to confuse private behavior with adults with commercial porn production. Nowhere near the same thing. I doubt if anybody here would support a rule or regulation requiring consenting adults in private to wear condoms (they may be idiots in many situations for doing so but I suppose there are lines that even sane governmental regulation cannot cross due to personal liberties and privacy rights guaranteed by the constitution). Quote
Guest thaiworthy Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Michael, you're continuing to confuse private behavior with adults with commercial porn production. Bob, you're wasting your time. It's hopeless. Not unlike this . . . Quote
Guest Jovianmoon Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Bob, you're wasting your time. It's hopeless. Not unlike this . . . Hahaha. Good one. With or without a condom, would you be able to "reprogram the simulation to change the conditions of the test"? With the epidemic in question, perhaps a more relevant lesson from that film would be: "How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?" (Kirk) And considering Michael's defence of the business/personal interests of the Vivid proprietor and a small number of barebackers versus those of the masses of potentially HIV-infected porn consumers: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". (Spock) Live Long and Prosper! Quote
Guest Jovianmoon Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 ALERT! ALERT! LOGICAL FALLACY! When one right is encroached upon, others will then start to fall away. Sorry Michael, but you've just invoked the SIippery Slope Fallacy. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Michael, you're continuing to confuse private behavior with adults with commercial porn production. Nowhere near the same thing. I doubt if anybody here would support a rule or regulation requiring consenting adults in private to wear condoms. So, we should only have these laws when commercial behavior is involved. Is that correct? OK. I understand now. So, lets regulate the gogo and beer bar industry to ensure they comply as well. How about if we require them to take a video cam with them for each "paid" encounter and to record the "event" and the present to the owner of their perspective bar to ensure they are compliant? I am sure we can trust them right? And, we should also require both client and "employee" to be tested every 4-6 weeks for all STD's and should anyone EVER test positive, we should shut down the entire industry. Are we all OK with this? I bet I know the answer. Of course, some of you will declare I am using faulty logic but if we all agree that private behavior should not be regulated but commercial behavior should be regulated, you should be OK with the above regulation. I know that none of you would ever engage in such a commercial transaction. Esp. in our beloved Thailand. After all, aren't we all there for the good food and cheap police protection. Quote
Guest Jovianmoon Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 ALERT! ALERT! LOGICAL FALLACY! So, we should only have these laws when commercial behavior is involved. Is that correct? OK. I understand now. So, lets regulate the gogo and beer bar industry to ensure they comply as well. How about if we require them to take a video cam with them for each "paid" encounter and to record the "event" and the present to the owner of their perspective bar to ensure they are compliant? I am sure we can trust them right? And, we should also require both client and "employee" to be tested every 4-6 weeks for all STD's and should anyone EVER test positive, we should shut down the entire industry. Are we all OK with this? I bet I know the answer. Of course, some of you will declare I am using faulty logic but if we all agree that private behavior should not be regulated but commercial behavior should be regulated, you should be OK with the above regulation... "...some of you will declare I am using faulty logic..." Indeed. Nobody has argued that anything like such regulations should be introduced. You have misrepresented the argument. You've just invoked the Strawman Fallacy. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Nobody has argued that anything like such regulations should be introduced. Reading is fundamental! Quote
Bob Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 So, we should only have these laws when commercial behavior is involved. Is that correct? OK. I understand now. Nope, you don't. Here's a question for you that you likely will do your best to avoid answering: Should the state of Nevada have the right to require the brothel workers there to use condoms or be periodically tested (for HIV, std's, hep, etc.) and would you consider it a violation of their personal rights if the state so regulated? [Prostitution is legal in certain counties in Nevada. Both female and male prostitutes are required to be regularly tested and condoms must be used. That's obviously the law. The question for you Michael is whether you have a problem with this law and, if not, then why shouldn't a similar law be applied to all who engage in commercialized sex including porn actors?] As to your attempt to sidetrack the discussion you yourself started - positing whether the Thai government ought to register, license, test, and require male and female prostitutes here to use condoms - I'll bite and answer that with a definite "yes!" But the fact that Thailand doesn't do something semi-intelligent to protect its citizens simply is irrelevant to the question of whether the US has the right to require porn actors to wear/use condoms. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Here's a question for you that you likely will do your best to avoid answering: Should the state of Nevada have the right to require the brothel workers there to use condoms or be periodically tested (for HIV, std's, hep, etc.) and would you consider it a violation of their personal rights if the state so regulated? So sorry. I did not make myself clear. I think that anything a person does with themselves or another consenting adult is between the two of them. I believe prostitution should be legal, all drugs should be legal, assisted suicide should be legal and anything else one person wants to do with their body or with another consenting adult should be without government intervention. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 RAW Top in Bangkok -- looking for bareback bottoms When I opened gay romeo an hour or so ago, this was the headline on the first page that stuck out. It is from a farang - someone who should know better (I have the 'name' but will not post it). And it is far from an exception now on sites like gay romeo. It really matters little how many young Thai guys respond. The fact is that some will wish to imitate what they see on porn vdos because, as stated earlier, that is how they learn about sex. It is sad that they learn the wrong message. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 FH, the porn industry is for fantasy. It is not an educational tool. Parents, schools and teachers should be education and sex education should be a part of every curriculum. And, the teachers should be the educators and not the porn stars. Porn stars are for entertainment and fantasy. They are not the ones that educate. And, it is NOT their responsibility. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 I doubt that any of you really care about the facts of this case as your mind is already made up. But, I had time today to sit down and chat with the lawyers who are representing the Free Speech Coalition. Perfect being at the right place at the right time. It was a great discussion and they told me the basis of the case as they are seeking an injunction to stop the law from taking effect. There were many points they went over but the interesting ones were that they were negotiating with the OSHA for new guidelines when all this started. They said the industry was already very strictly monitored and the new laws would require a public health inspector to be present at EVERY shooting in order to make sure the condoms were placed on appropriately etc. Needless to say, that will be costly. Also it was interesting that the group that got this pushed through spent over 6 million dollars. Amazing that a 3rd party group is so interested right? And for those of you that thought I was nutty when I said this is just the tip of the iceberg, well guess what else that group has purposed? That every gay bar be required by law to give condoms to their customers. Another one, they want to close down the bathhouses and saunas in West Hollywood and if they can't get them closed, they want to have a monitor in place to make sure things are done safely. LOL So, I guess this group isn't really interested in private vs commercial encounters are they? At least it doesn't sound like it to me. Someone said in this thread, give them an inch and they will take a mile. humm... Lastly, I just happened to have access to 24 porn stars today. All of them were in the straight industry and none in gay films. But, I asked them how often they were tested for HIV. 3 of the said once per month. The other 19 said 2 times per month. It sounds to me like they are intelligent and cautious individuals. Their job does put them at more risk to get STD's than other jobs for sure but I think coal miners also have more risk for certain diseases that the majority of the population. Just an observation. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 FH, the porn industry is for fantasy. It is not an educational tool. Parents, schools and teachers should be education and sex education should be a part of every curriculum. And, the teachers should be the educators and not the porn stars. Porn stars are for entertainment and fantasy. They are not the ones that educate. And, it is NOT their responsibility. Again, I agree entirely. But facts are facts. Sex education should indeed be part of every young person's curriculum. But is it? Of course it is not. If the world were not in the middle of a pandemic, perhaps that would not be such a problem. But a pandemic there is - and nothing can change that, until a vaccine or a cure is discovered. And until then, those in the porn industry, whether they like it or not, do have an obligation to play their part in ensuring that they convey the messages given out by the medical experts. That is as much a responsibility for youngsters in the USA as it is to those in Thailand and less developed countries. To do otherwise is reckless, in my view. As for being tested every 2 weeks. Good for them. But I have to say again, it does zilch to protect them unless they abstain from unprotected sex over a 3-month window! How often does that have to be red-flagged before some people 'get it'?? Every two weeks means they could be infected and yet also be tested 5 times and each time show negative. Yes, you are right about coal miners. But coal miners are not role models - and unlike coal miners, porn can influence people, especially younger people. Quote
TotallyOz Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 FH: Does these ladies really look like educators to you? Are these the ones that SHOULD be shaping the minds of our youth? I did take out all the ones that were too risque. Meet 5 of those I chatted with today in my poll. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 Are these the ones who use condoms or take a risk by going without? I'd rather not meet any of them, thanks. Now if they were cute Asian, guys, I could perhaps be tempted! Quote
Guest thaiworthy Posted January 18, 2013 Posted January 18, 2013 I'd rather not meet any of them, thanks. Now if they were cute Asian, guys, I could perhaps be tempted! Question for Scooby: is it possible to like a post (such as the one above more than once?) If so, I would like to give it about 15 likes. The boyfriend agrees. I just discussed this thread with him and he knows in the past that Michael has "liked" many of my posts. So he wanted to know if Michael has given me 15 "lies" this time. But he is Thai and has problems making the "k" sound. It gets omitted, sometimes. I'm not sure if this is one of those times. Quote
