Latter-day Greek Tragedy

[Rogie]

Greece is going through a pretty hellish time right now, and unfortunately is shooting itself in the foot with a few heavy-handed tactics.

 

The tourists held by Greek police as illegal migrants

 

Greek police have stepped up efforts to catch illegal immigrants in recent months, launching a new operation to check the papers of people who look foreign. But tourists have also been picked up in the sweeps - and at least two have been badly beaten.

 

When Korean backpacker Hyun Young Jung was stopped by a tall scruffy looking man speaking Greek on the street in central Athens he thought it might be some kind of scam, so he dismissed the man politely and continued on his way.

 

A few moments later he was stopped again, this time by a man in uniform who asked for his documents. But as a hardened traveller he was cautious.

 

Greece was the 16th stop in his two-year-long round-the-world trip and he'd often been warned about people dressing in fake uniforms to extract money from backpackers, so while he handed over his passport he also asked the man to show him his police ID.

 

Instead, Jung says, he received a punch in the face.

 

Within seconds, the uniformed man and his plainclothes partner - the man who had first approached Jung - had him down on the ground and were kicking him, according to the Korean.

 

In shock, Jung was by now convinced he was being mugged by criminals and began shouting for help from passers-by.

 

"I was very scared," he says.

 

It was only when he was handcuffed and dragged 500m (500 yards) up the road to the nearest police station that he realised he was actually under arrest.

 

When Jung was released from police custody without charge just a few hours after being detained, he says one officer shouted after him, "Hey Korean, go home!"

 

Instead Jung went straight to the Korean Embassy in Athens and returned with the consul to confront the men who he said hit him.

 

It took five further visits to the police station, an official complaint from the embassy to the chief of police and 10 days of waiting before the officers involved in Jung's case were named.

 

Meanwhile the backpacker had published his story on a travellers' blog read by more than 60,000 people.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20958353

 

 

[Guest]

They Greeks fiddled the books to get into the Euro, cheated on their borrowings figures once in the Euro and then expect everyone else to bail them out when it all goes wrong.

When they should be encouraging tourists to visit their country and bring in some revenue, the police are actually harassing the visitors. 

I applaud the Korean guy for actually trying to do something about this.

[Guest thaiworthy]

They Greeks fiddled the books to get into the Euro, cheated on their borrowings figures once in the Euro and then expect everyone else to bail them out when it all goes wrong.

When they should be encouraging tourists to visit their country and bring in some revenue, the police are actually harassing the visitors. 

I applaud the Korean guy for actually trying to do something about this.

 

Here's an interesting article that compares two countries, Greece and Germany. Quite a stark contrast. As far as Greek tourism is concerned, they are shooting themselves in the foot:

 

Post-bailout Greece will also be a different one for consumers. As part of the austerity plan, taxes on alcohol, fuels and luxury goods have increased to 10 percent. Cigarette taxes were also increased to 10 percent, creating a large financial burden in a country where 42 percent of people smoke. This could have a negative impact on tourism, as goods purchased by visitors will be more expensive.

Read more at http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2010/06/02/Euro-Crisis-Forces-Deep-Cuts-in-Social-Benefits.aspx#8V5m7Peo8ZFUKy2m.99

 

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2010/06/02/Euro-Crisis-Forces-Deep-Cuts-in-Social-Benefits.aspx#page1

 

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The date of this article is January 1, 0001. What the heck is that? Why am I seeing so many articles with corrupt dates? How am I supposed to know if this article is current?

[Rogie]

I tried to check out the blog referred to but didn't make any headway. Quite natually, it looks like it's in Korean.

 

There are plenty of people out to get you in Thailand, but a bit of savvie-ness (reading message boards such as this one can help!) will allow you to avoid the worst Thailand can throw at you.

 

Greece is also a safe country for visitors, and despite this sort of cautionary tale, I'm sure it remains so. However, basing any sort of identity checks solely on appearance is fraught with danger. Many years ago a black teenager was murdered in south London. There was a major cock-up by the Metropolitan police and they were branded by a judge as being 'institutionally racist'. Just recently the deceased boy's brother (in his 30's) has complained he's been stopped over 20 times by the police, the majority of occasions for no real reason. The inference being he was pulled up by the police solely because of his colour.

[Rogie]

The date of this article is January 1, 0001. What the heck is that? Why am I seeing so many articles with corrupt dates? How am I supposed to know if this article is current?

 

I reckon it's a year or two old that article TW. Papandreou resigned in Nov '11.

 

Maybe websites do that to disguise how old these pages are. I wouldn't advocate deleteing old pages as they may serve a useful purpose for historians, fiscal commentatores etc, but they should at least ensure the date of original publication is correct.

[Guest timmberty]

what i never have, still dont, and never will get, is why these so called brains keep pumping money into greece ... it cant afford to pay back the 200 billion it owns .. so lets give it another 60 billion ... it is impossible for it to ever pay that money off and will eventually go broke .. so what to do .. give it another 60 billion ? or let it go broke ?

what happens if it goes broke ? will europe fall ? my guess would be no .. ok i dont have a uni education so im not so clever .. but i do have common sence .. and i know stuffing a pair of pants into an ever widening hole will soon have water pissing thru it again as the hole gets bigger .. and i dont need a uni education to know that 1+1 =2 but if you do have such an education then 1+1 must =3 . why are these people so stupid .. surley its better to go bust being owed 200 billion rather that 400 billion no ?

p.s. who is it that all these countries borrow money from ?? the worlds governments owe trillions of dollars ... is there a small shop where they go to and some dodgy geezer gets out a wad of notes and asks .. how much you want borrow ?? .. .cause no country can afford to lend trillions of cash ....

p.p.s. if most countries in europe owe each other money .. why not just pay off what you can afford ..half the debt would be gone straight away ?? or am i really just that simple.

[Guest fountainhall]

or am i really just that simple.

 

Surely no one who juggles ip addresses with the frequency you clearly do can be that simple, lmtu 

[Guest jomtien]

Surely no one who juggles ip addresses with the frequency you clearly do can be that simple, lmtu 

 

Is there anyone on the planet you don't think is either LMTU or Beachlover?

[Guest fountainhall]

I will not dignify that comment with a response, other than to say what is obvious is obvious - even though some clearly appear blind!

[Guest timmberty]

me . LMTU ive never been so insulted . how very dare you .. would you like my phone number so you can call me ?? im a 50 yr old in england, london,enfield to be more precise ...

i dont study i.p. addresses you started this thread i gave you an example of how a board owner uses .. truly or fasly some i.p. addresses ... being as you started it maybe you are LMTU ??

thats turned it on its head huh ?? so pvt me and ill give you my number then you can eat a bit of famous humble pie and say sorry .. bty if the number dont prove to you im in england we can web cam .. no sex please . . im sure you know what LMTU looks like , im sure you will find i look nothing like him.

[Guest abang]

Greece has herself to blame.

The civil service employed about 50% of the workforce.

That means, the other 50% has to feed them.

So, when times are difficult, there was simply not enough to pay the civil service.

 

I really hate to see interesting topics like this degenerate into verbal abuse and accusations among members.  We should instead work towards creating a more cordial environment for members to contribute.  Stop the nonsense of naming calling and other unbecoming behaviour.

 

Like in any and every beauty pageants, WORLD PEACE!

[KhorTose]

Abang, thank you for returning to the topic and I completely agree with you last sentiments.  FH for the record LMTU and Tim are not one and the same, and I will bet big money on that,

[Guest]

what i never have, still dont, and never will get, is why these so called brains keep pumping money into greece ... it cant afford to pay back the 200 billion it owns ..

The Euro should never have been set up in the first place, or certainly not on the scale it is.

Economies needed to be fully converged for it to have a prayer of working.  Maybe Germany, Austria, the Netherlands and no one else. Perhaps Denmark, but they were smart enough not to touch it.

Countries like Greece, with high government borrowings and traditionally higher inflation were always going to end up with these problems.

 

Problem#1:  Common interest rates for the Euro zone.  The interest rate was too low in Greece and club med for years.  Inflation was too high and as the exchange rates are fixed, they cannot devalue to restore competitiveness. Hence high unemployment.

 

Problem#2: Government borrowing is too high, the books were cooked and it continued on for way too long.  This is now very difficult to fix.  They can't print their own currency, as it's a shared one.

 

Problem#3: With a single currency zone, there needs to be some mechanism to transfer wealth -either a mobile workforce, or transfer payments.  Now, considering the German taxpayer has had to make sacrifices like having his pension delayed to 67, why the hell should he subsidise some bone idle Greek public sector worker who gets to retire before he's 60?  There's no reason at all to make such payments.

[Guest timmberty]

cheers kor tose .. and very well said z909 the germans wanted to take over the world .. im sure if they had known they'd have to put their pensions on hold for a few extra years they wouldnt have been quite so keen ...

[Rogie]

I wrote the following on 9/11/11 in The Next Global Financial Crisis thread:

 

"British TV aired an interesting programme earlier this week and i didn't know whether to laugh or cry. A reporter pretended to be a Greek financial adviser and approached 3 British individuals with tempting proposals. Number one was a beautician/hairdresser in her mid-50's who was advised that in Greece her occupation would be regarded as hazardous and she could retire on 90% of her salary straightaway - she accepted. Number two was a bus-driver who accepted similar retirement terms, based again on the Greek system, well before he would have been eligible in Britan. Number 3 was a doctor earning about GBP 200,000 a year privately and a much smaller amount working for the National Health Service. He was told that in Greece he could wangle it so he 'took home' an extra GBP 1,000 a week. How so? Easy, he just virtually eliminated his tax bill by under-reporting his salary. So when a patient comes to pay his bill the lion's share is paid in cash. It's the black economy given quasi-respectability. All the Brits expressed incredulity that any country in Europe could function in that way, let alone a country within the supposed safety of the Eurozone. "

[Guest abang]

I am glad that the Association of South East Asian nations (ASEAN) did not go the way the European Union had gone.

Fortunately the idea of adopting a common currency was dropped.  

 

Yes, it would be inconvenient for businessmen and visitors to use a different currency as they move across the borders from one country to another.  The truth is,  the entire region is not advancing at the same pace.  Singapore is at least 20 years ahead (in terms of economic development, infrastructure development) than Myanmar.  Although Myanmar is rich is its untapped natural resources, the political insecurity there remains an issue.

 

Similarly, the disparity and the social/economic divide within most of these countries are too enormous.  We all are definitely aware of the poor rural boy who moves to a big city.  Such massive migration can only worsen the problem of housing, work and social (in)cohesion.

 

So we wait earnestly for a better solution for the weakening European crisis. 

Does EU has the right to expel its members?

And if so, who is the first to go?

[Guest timmberty]

one of the fun things about travel is doing all the annoying things like changing money into different currancies ... if you want one europe lets all speak the same language as well as the same money .. get rid of the different names of countries and their history .. forget the past and move towards a one world ... cause once europe is all one .. whats next ?? one world .. europe was a bad bad idea ..simple way to put is it like so .. lend me 10 dollars .. you give me it .. then ask for it back .. i tell you i cant give you it back unless you lend me another 20 dollars ... and on it goes ... til in the end you have no money left to lend me .. then the whole things crashes down ..you cant spend what you dont have .. but our glorious leaders still havent quite got the hang of that yet ... give it time.

[Guest abang]

Tim

Honestly I tried my very best (every-time) to understand your posting.

 

It has nothing to do with grammar or vocabulary, it is just that you have lumped everything into one major paragraph. It is imperative for you to start writing your thoughts clearly (and breaking them down into different paragraphs).

 

As our teachers had taught us years ago, any sentence longer than 15 words, any paragraph with more than 6 lines would be difficult for the reader to grasp. So for the ease of reading and to increase the readership of this forum, write sensibly.

[Guest]

you have lumped everything into one major paragraph.

I only know of one other member who did that.

[Rogie]

Does EU has the right to expel its members?

And if so, who is the first to go?

It's useful I tink to distinguish between expulsion and making a voluntary exit.

 

Here is the relevant wiki entry for both of these scenarios:

 

Firstly, withdrawal from the EU:

 

"The Treaty of Lisbon introduced an exit clause for members who wish to withdraw from the Union. Under TEU Article 50, a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to secede from the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and that State. The Treaties would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification unless the State and the Council both agree to extend this period. The agreement is concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council and shall set out the arrangements for withdrawal, including a framework for the State's future relationship with the Union. The agreement is to be approved by the Council, acting by qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament. A former Member State seeking to rejoin the European Union would be subject to the same conditions as any other applicant country.

 

This system gives a negotiated withdrawal, due to the complexities of leaving the EU (particularly concerning the euro). However it does include in it a strong implication of a unilateral right to withdraw. This is through the fact the state would decide "in accordance with its own constitutional requirements" and that the end of the treaties' application in said state is not dependent on any agreement being reached (it would occur after two years regardless)"

 

And for suspension / expulsion:

 

"While a state can leave, there is no provision for it to be excluded. But TEU Article 7 provides for the suspension of certain rights of a member state if a member persistently breaches the EU's founding principles (liberty, democracy, human rights and so forth, outlined in TEU Article 2). The European Council can vote to suspend any rights of membership, such as voting and representation as outlined above. Identifying the breach requires unanimity (excluding the state concerned), but sanctions require only a qualified majority. The state in question would still be bound by the obligations treaties and the Council acting by majority may alter or lift such sanctions. The Treaty of Nice included a preventative mechanism whereby the Council, acting by majority, may identify a potential breach and make recommendations to the state to rectify it before action is taken against it as outlined above. The closest this provision came to being used was in early 2000 due to Austria forming a government which included the far right Freedom Party. Other member states threatened to cut off diplomatic contacts in response and some feared Article 7 might be invoked.

 

However the treaties do not provide any mechanism to expel a member state outright. The idea appeared in the drafting of the European Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty but failed to be included. There are a number of considerations which make such a provision impractical. Firstly, a member state leaving would require amendments to the treaties, and amendments require unanimity. Unanimity would be impossible to achieve if the state did not want to leave of its own free will. Secondly it is legally complicated, particularly with all the rights and privileges being withdrawn for both sides that would not be resolved by an orderly and voluntary withdrawal. Third, the concept of expulsion goes against the spirit of the treaties. Most available sanctions are conciliatory, not punitive; they do not punish a state for failing to live up to fellow states' demands, but encourage a state to fulfill its treaty obligations - expulsion would certainly not achieve that."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

 

_______________________________________________________________________

 

As to whether a country like Britain should leave the EU, any event that paints the EU in a bad light supplies more ammunition to those in favour of doing so.

 

If the EU was seen to be a rip-roaring success with all its citizens happy and enjoying a good standard of living, with no problems re immigration between member countries, or any petty arguments, and (for those countries signed up) harmonious use of the Euro currency, then calls for Britain to withdraw would be minimal.

 

Conversely, now things are pretty bad EU-wise, strident calls for withdrawal find many an eager ear cocked in their direction.

 

 

. . . it is just that you have lumped everything into one major paragraph.

Note above the quotes re the EU have been left as copied from the wiki page. Dry words such as these are best left thus - anyone not interestd in the EU (and let's face it that's probably the majority of readers here!) can just skip it.

 

My own comments have been broken down into paragraphs. I don't always do it but I agree it does make for easier reading, although some may still wish to skip what I've written also!

[Guest timmberty]

sorry abang .. i tend to type as i speak ... and sorry also to FH another garden path you have been led down ?

i hope you lose your fasination with lmtu ... and dear michael i hope beachlover returns to your life .. my guess is even tho you know nothing about him, he is your hero ? everything you always wanted to be !! well if all you ever wanted to be was a bullshitter ...theres still time.

jomtien, why is it that even tho i de-ativated my profil, when i turned on my computer this morning i was still signed on ?

[Rogie]

There's a nasty whiff of something strong blowing in the European Union wind. Some more daft goings-on from out lords and masters, aided and abetted by a cast of crooks and the fertile soils in China.

 

Who, What, Why: Why do criminals smuggle garlic?

 

"Sweden has issued international arrest warrants for two Britons suspected of illegally importing 10m euros (£8m) worth of garlic into the EU via Norway. Why would criminals do that?

 

Swedish state prosecutors claim to have cracked one of Europe's more seemingly strange, if lucrative, smuggling rings.

 

They say two British men are believed to have made millions of euros smuggling Chinese garlic from Norway into Sweden.

 

The EU imposes a 9.6% duty on imported foreign garlic.

 

The supplies are said to have been shipped to Norway - a non-EU state where no garlic import tax is applied - and then smuggled into neighbouring Sweden and the rest of the EU by lorry, thus avoiding EU import duties."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20976887

[Guest abang]

Sorry to say this:

I cant teach an old dog new tricks...

 

 

Thanks Rogie for giving me some new insights about EU.

[Guest timmberty]

may i ask what name you used to post under abang ??

for someone whos been a member for just a few weeks, as well as laying down the law, you are now trying to change people ! not what you'd expect from a newbi is it ?

[Guest abang]

I am being constructive.

I am trying to contribute to this forum as I deem relevant.

It really does not matter whether who I am to give my 2-cents worth.

You have your every right to retain your writing style.

 

With regards to your other remark, I deem it necessary as the posting in the previous 2 to 3 days were nothing worthy, just mere cross-sword among the very few members.  There should be a flamming room where the few of the members can fight to no end.

 

Remember, WORLD PEACE...

And never forget Candidate Obama's slogan in 2008 : CHANGE...