Stephen Hawking Turns 71

[Guest timmberty]

jovianmoon what is time ? its a man made thingy, is it not ?

man made the day and the night.

as you can tell the closest i got to being amazed by space, was the sliding doors on the space ship enterprise.

[Guest Jovianmoon]

jovianmoon what is time ? its a man made thingy, is it not ?

 

No. Time was not created by humans, it is only measured by humans, as is its conjoined twin, space. The point I was making earlier was that essentially there is no 'time', not in its own. I didn't use the precise term in my post - but I will now: it's 'space-time', or nothing. There is no space without time and no time without space.

 

My short answer to your question is that space-time exists whether or not humans are here to measure or define it.

 

There is a vacuum, and particles move in that vacuum (which signifies the passage of time). Whether or not you and I are here to see the vacuum and the particles within it does not negate or confirm its existence, but we have seen it and measured it and we have no reason to believe that it would not be here if we were not. The 'tree falling in the forest' argument must be one of the most fallacious forms of reasoning I have ever encountered.

 

And now I sense we might be moving from a cosmological/physical debate to an existentialist one - I'm not going there! 

 

Cheers   

[Guest Jovianmoon]

as you can tell the closest i got to being amazed by space, was the sliding doors on the space ship enterprise.

 

No offence, but you need to get out more! And I don't mean partying in Bangkok and Pattaya   

 

I'm the last of the big Star Trek fans myself, so I like your reference.

 

But have you not laid on your back in a remote field far from city lights, totally alone, staring wondrously at the wheeling night skies above and all around you - seeing thousands, literally thousands of stars? If not, you are missing one of the most amazing displays of nature - no telescope required, and it's free (apart from transport cost to said remote area). 

 

By the way, that broad band of stars and other celestial objects that you will see is none other than one of the actual spiral arms of our own galaxy - it is breathtaking.

 

Do it. Do it now.

[Guest timmberty]

i was in a very dark field in france once, twas a wonderful dark night with no light.

the stars went on forever .. and its when you see the night sky like that,you know its goes on forever, and no matter what scientists say there is no way in the world they can know what goes on out there.

even ironside is just guessing.

[Guest Jovianmoon]

i was in a very dark field in france once, twas a wonderful dark night with no light.

the stars went on forever .. and its when you see the night sly like that,you know its goes on forever, and no matter what scientists say there is no way in the world they can know what goes on out there.

even ironside is just guessing.

 

That's the stuff - such a sight is truly amazing. You are right that we, and scientists, cannot know at this time the full extent of what is going on 'out there' - I agree. But when you understand how the scientific method works you begin to understand how they (the scientists) understand, to a large (though not total) degree, what they are observing and measuring. And you also realise how much there is left to understand. Man's greatest adventure, like I said.

 

It's too easy for some people just to doubt any expert knowledge through sheer incredulity (argument from ignorance: 'I don't understand it, so it can't be true'). That's plainly fallacious reasoning. Sorry if that seems harsh.

 

And um, 'Ironside', as you call him, is not guessing in the least. He is observing. He is measuring, He is reasoning. He is doing science. He has an intellect beyond anything you or I could ever hope to achieve.

 

Additional note - Please try to remember that without science, you would not have any technology, and therefore no phone, no television, and particularly no computer on which to read this message and post your refutation.

[Guest thaiworthy]

Judging from your articulate writing on subject, it is now no surprise to me why you call yourself Jovianmoon.

[Guest Jovianmoon]

Judging from your articulate writing on subject, it is now no surprise to me why you call yourself Jovianmoon.

My mum and dad gave me a telescope for Christmas when I was twelve. The first things I saw through it, apart from craters on our own moon, were four of the Jovian moons (the big four - the Galilean moons) as well as actual cloud bands across Jupiter's surface. I was hooked. And that was only through a 150 X telescope that probably cost no more than about AU$100. It certainly doesn't take Hubble to see amazing stuff (though it helps)    

[kokopelli]

But have you not laid on your back in a remote field far from city lights, totally alone, staring wondrously at the wheeling night skies above and all around you - seeing thousands, literally thousands of stars? If not, you are missing one of the most amazing displays of nature - no telescope required, and it's free (apart from transport cost to said remote area). 

 

Regrettably there are few places where this spectacle can be viewed. Once in the middle of Wyoming/USA, late at night, I stopped for a brief break and looked up at the sky. How surprised I was to see bright stars in front of dense white clouds. I then realized these clouds were indeed the stars of the Milky Way Galaxy in which we reside.

[Guest Jovianmoon]

Regrettably there are few places where this spectacle can be viewed. Once in the middle of Wyoming/USA, late at night, I stopped for a brief break and looked up at the sky. How surprised I was to see bright stars in front of dense white clouds. I then realized these clouds were indeed the stars of the Milky Way Galaxy in which we reside.

 

I guess I take the wide open spaces for granted. But then again, living in a city of over 1.2 million (with its sprawling suburbs), even I need to drive for at least an hour and a half to see the show. It's worth it though. 

 

Here's a thing: sometimes, instead of lying on your back on the ground, stand upright staring straight up at the centre of the galactic spiral arm directly above you and turn your head slowly, in such a way that there are no ground objects in your peripheral vision - you feel like you're in space, floating! I love doing that - ever since I was a kid, when my eyes would get tired from squinting through the telescope eyepiece, I would give it up just to do that. It was far beyond any science fiction movie starfield seen on my TV screen - it was real!   

[Guest timmberty]

now tell the truth ... you used the telescope to spy on the boy getting ready for bed across the street!!! dirty boy ..

anyhow back to the subject... i agree science is a wonderful thing for all the things you have listed.. plus the likes of curing cancer ... tho my belief is everytime you cure something, something else will take its place, and that something else will be even more deadly.

but as nice as star gazing is, what has it given us? man has walked on the moon.

what have we gotten from that ?

i can see the fascination but i dont see the point in it.

and lets be honest, if we did find proper life on a distant planet, we would do our best to destroy it.

[Guest timmberty]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/-oldest-star-in-universe--is-found---born-just-after-the-big-bang-120332438.html

i belive they found a copy of the local newspaper with the date on it .. give or take 700 million years ...

tho it looks very much like the skies above heathrow at any give time of the day. time to circle again.

[Rogie]

tho it looks very much like the skies above heathrow at any give time of the day. time to circle again.

 

Here's a thing: sometimes, instead of lying on your back on the ground, stand upright staring straight up at the centre of the galactic spiral arm directly above you and turn your head slowly, in such a way that there are no ground objects in your peripheral vision - you feel like you're in space, floating!

 

Time to circle again . . . Ah, the circle game.

 

Time to build that new airport.

 

Time and Space . . .

 

Yesterday, a child came out to wander

Caught a dragonfly inside a jar

Fearful when the sky was full of thunder

And tearful at the falling of a star

 

And the seasons they go 'round and 'round

And the painted ponies go up and down

We're captive on the carousel of time

We can't return we can only look behind

From where we came

And go round and round and round

In the circle game

 

Then, the child moved ten times 'round the seasons

Skated over ten clear frozen streams

Words like, "When you're older", must appease him

And promises of someday make his dreams

 

And the seasons they go 'round and 'round

And the painted ponies go up and down

We're captive on the carousel of time

We can't return we can only look behind

From where we came,

And go round and round and round

In the circle game

 

Sixteen springs and sixteen summers gone now

Cartwheels turn to car wheels through the town

And they tell him, "Take your time. It won't be long now.

'Til your drag your feet to slow the circles down"

 

And the seasons they go 'round and 'round

And the painted ponies go up and down

We're captive on the carousel of time

We can't return we can only look behind

From where we came

And go round and round and round

In the circle game

 

So the years spin by and now the boy is twenty

Though his dreams have lost some grandeur coming true

There'll be new dreams, maybe better dreams and plenty

Before the last revolving year is through.

 

And the seasons they go 'round and 'round

And the painted ponies go up and down

We're captive on the carousel of time

We can't return, we can only look behind

From where we came

And go round and 'round and 'round

In the circle game

And go 'round and 'round and 'round in the circle game.

 

THE CIRCLE GAME: Lyrics by Joni Mitchell. Ladies of the Canyon - 1970

[Guest fountainhall]

have you not laid on your back in a remote field far from city lights, totally alone, staring wondrously at the wheeling night skies above and all around you - seeing thousands, literally thousands of stars?

 

I've experienced that twice and both times it took my breath away. Once was at night sitting by the shore on one of the Maldive Islands. Apart from a couple of flares, there were no lights of any description. Looking up at the sky, it was extraordinary to see the pin-point lights from many millions of stars from horizon to horizon. It was stunning.

 

The other was in India in mid-November. Again no lights nearby and no clouds. But this time every few moments it was easy to make out shooting stars amongst the carpet of other stars.

 

I have never been a Star Trek or SF fan. What interest I have started with the Apollo 8 mission back in December 1968, the one which flew around the moon but did not attempt to land. One of the photos taken was of the small green planet earth set against the greyness of the moon and the black of the surrounding sky. I think that one photo made many on earth realise that we were part of something far bigger than we had ever imagined before.

[Guest thaiworthy]

I got a kick the other day when I watched a science program remarks about Star Trek TNG warp-speed shots of the Enterprise passing through space. You can see stars whizzing past in the windows of the ship's hull. This is actually impossible. You cannot go fast enough for that kind of visual reality. Stars would still look stationary even if you were going that fast, they said. There is just too much space between stars. Still, it looks kind of cool. Wouldn't be science fiction without it, i guess.

[kokopelli]

but as nice as star gazing is, what has it given us? man has walked on the moon.

what have we gotten from that ?

You are right, if man was meant to fly he would have wings; if meant to go fast he would have wheels instead of feet. So much for technology bring back the good old days before planes, cars, cell phones, TV, GPS, medical imaging, computers are all the rest.

[kokopelli]

My mum and dad gave me a telescope for Christmas when I was twelve. The first things I saw through it, apart from craters on our own moon, were four of the Jovian moons (the big four - the Galilean moons) as well as actual cloud bands across Jupiter's surface. I was hooked. And that was only through a 150 X telescope that probably cost no more than about AU$100. It certainly doesn't take Hubble to see amazing stuff (though it helps)    

Same as you Jovianmoon, I also received an inexpensive telescope as a youth and was fascinated when observing the skys. Probably the most interesting object was the Great Galaxy in Andromeda which, by the way, can actually be seen by the naked eye even though 2.5 million light years away. Once astronomers realized, in early 1900 hundreds, that Andromeda was a separate entity from our own Milky Way, that the vastness of the Universe became evident.

 

Oh, and yes, timberty, I did put that telescope to use observing more earthly wonders.

[Guest thaiworthy]

 man has walked on the moon.

what have we gotten from that ?

 

Well, certainly not tendonitis! Gravity on the moon is 83.3% less than on earth.

 

More than any wonder of the world here on earth, I would like to see the stars from space. That must surely be more breathtaking than anyplace on earth. I guess the closest I'll ever get to that is to look up from terra firma where there are no city lights and the atmosphere is clean. Antarctica, perhaps? This article says Perth! Jovianmoon, you lucky devil you!

 

This link will take you to National Geographic's Best Night-time Pictures of 2012. The first-place prize was of a photograph taken in the countryside near Perth. I fully expect to see Fountainhall's entries for next year!

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/05/pictures/120515-best-earth-sky-pictures-2012-comet-milky-way-space/

 

I like this photo the best, but it won only 5th place. It was taken in Wyoming.

 

 

A country road in Wyoming parallels the band of the Milky Way in a summertime shot by photographer Eric Hines. "Spending the nights under the stars in some of the most remote places in the U.S. is what keeps me going," Hines said in an email.

 

In general, TWAN founder Tafreshi said, "in Earth-and-sky photography we capture things which are mostly visible to unaided eyes, and the main effort is to show what was experienced by the eyes of photographer at the scene.

 

"I'm very pleased that our highly experienced judging team in the 2012 contest voted for more natural-looking images."

[kokopelli]

That photo of the sky in Wyoming was similiar to the one in Wyoming I observed though in the winter months and even more spectacular.

[Guest fountainhall]

I fully expect to see Fountainhall's entries for next year!

 

Sadly that will not happen. My night sky images were before the days of digital cameras and I was so transfixed by what I was seeing I did not even try to take pics.

 

I did once see the Aurora Borealis one evening in the north of Scotland. But surely nothing beats the images coming from the Hubble Telescope which are just mind-blowing. One of the first that attracted me was this Pillars of Creation - the formation of new stars.

 

Photo: NASA

[Guest Jovianmoon]

Too many excellent posts have followed for me to refer to or quote any particular one. Poetry, great articles and images...

 

I like this thread!

 

Cheers.

[Guest timmberty]

You are right, if man was meant to fly he would have wings; if meant to go fast he would have wheels instead of feet. So much for technology bring back the good old days before planes, cars, cell phones, TV, GPS, medical imaging, computers are all the rest.

what good are wheels instead of feet? ill race you up a hill, you can have a set of wheel below your knees and ill use my feet.

do you think flying , cars ,t.v's etc wouldnt have been invented if man hasnt walked on the moon ? maybe the clangers would never have been found, buts thats all.

sadly this is a remake of the original series ..but nowhere near a good as the original.

[kokopelli]

do you think flying , cars ,t.v's etc wouldnt have been invented if man hasnt walked on the moon ? maybe the clangers would never have been found, buts thats all.

 

No, most of those inventions preceeded the moon walk however they and other technical innovations lead to men landing on the Moon. Likewise developments in technology subsequent to the Moon landing have inspired or giving birth to more advances for mankind. Success breds success.

 

[Guest timmberty]

depends as to what qualifies as success .. picking up a bit of moon dust and bringing it back to earth isnt my idea of success, im sure the beardy people would disagree, but you cant please everyone i surpose.

[Rogie]

Likewise developments in technology subsequent to the Moon landing have inspired or giving birth to more advances for mankind. Success breds success. 

 

depends as to what qualifies as success .. picking up a bit of moon dust and bringing it back to earth isnt my idea of success, im sure the beardy people would disagree, but you cant please everyone i surpose.

As a part-time member of the bearded fraternity (don't panic, I only 'sport one' for a few weeks in deep mid-winter), I do heartily disagree. Check out the thread devoted to the fascinating Mars-Lander 'Curiosity'. Moon dust? Pah! wait and see what Curiosity can dig up! It was mankind's phenomenal success to land on the moon and we've built on those experiences to take it a stage farther. Moon dust then, Mars dust now. Except it's more than marsdust, Curiosity can choose a likely candidate rock and drill down into it, take a sample and analyse it in its own miniature laboratory. It's absolutely fabulous stuff, so Koko is right, success breeds success.

[Guest timmberty]

do amazing stuff with it... like what ? spray it with water or some other stuff ?

break it in bits then spay it some more ?

then bring some of it back to earth and spary it some more,more .. then it'll be under a microscope and they will say oooooooooooo there was life on mars 40000 trillion billion years ago ...

go by david bowies single and save your self the wasted money on a space ship.. he knew that 40 years ago.