Preah Vihear Temple

[Bob]

The Thai Democrats and some of their fringe allies (what's left of the yellow shirts and PAD), like the Republicans in the US, seem to be totally nuts in what posltions they stake out on various issues.  Instead of actually coming up with a policy that might be helpful for the Thai people, they seem to choose any topic they think they can use to undercut the current Thai government.  And, for whatever reason, they seem to always select the dumbest positions on such issues.

 

The International Court of Justice ruled over 50 years ago that the Vihear Temple belongs to Cambodia.  And, like it or not, there is no (zero) possibility that the Court is going to reverse that ruling.  What the new ruling will involve will be a clearer delineation of what land around the temple also belongs to Cambodia (I would think that the land immediately under the temple grounds has already been decided).  The new ruling is expected this coming fall.

 

The Foreign Minister recently said that it's possible that Thailand will not win this case.  And the Democrats and fringe wackos have blasted him for "conceding" ahead of the ruling. What total moronic thinking.  Let's look at the facts:

 

(1) No doubt, as mentioned, the temple and grounds of the temple belong to Cambodia - and that isn't even at issue.  Some of the PAD and yellow shirts think that's part of the case but it isn't.

 

(2) The prior Thai government and their legal team have taken the position - based on their argument that the ICJ had used faulty maps in making their decision in 1961 - that Thailand owns all of the land in front (towards Thailand) of the temple and even on the sides and to the rear of the temple.  Now, come on, somebody really wants to argue that the ICJ, when ruling the temple belonged to Cambodia, could possibly have intended to leave an island of land (the temple grounds) within the sovereign state of Thailand?  Nobody (well, except for some Democrats and some of the fringe wackos) is that stupid!

 

(3)  The Pheu Thai government has maintained the same legal team to handle the claim in the ICJ, the same team that the Democrats put in place.  If you can believe this - I mean, where do they get these notions??? - The Democrats are now claiming that (1) the current government is doing that to cover their ass should they lose the case and (2) that the current government "should assemble the best possible legal team" to win the case.  Somewhat difficult, I would think, for the Democrats to impliedly argue that they didn't put in place a decent legal team, isn't it?!?  I'd hope the current government isn't dumb enough to replace the legal team (if they do, the Democrats will claim when the case is "lost" that the Pheu Thai government is responsible because they put a bunch of morons on the legal team with the actual intention to lose the friggin' case!).

 

The Thai position since 1961 is untenable both factually and as a matter of law.  That, however, really has nothing to do with why the Thais are fighting the case or why the Democrats and their fringe allies are attempting (stupidly, in my view) to fan the flames of phony nationalism to attempt to undermine the current government.  Hell, I'm a bit surprised they haven't investigated Yingluck's birth certificate as yet (she, like Obama, was probably born in Kenya.....you heard it here!).   

[Guest fountainhall]

The issue highlights the bad blood between the two countries. Large chunks of Cambodia, including Angkor Wat, were occupied by Thailand during World War II. After the Vietnamese invasion in December 1978, Thailand also sided with the Khmer Rouge for many years, thereby helping prolong the civil war – although, to be fair, this was also the position of the US and the United Nations.

 

But this little affair will be as nothing if oil and/or gas is discovered is the disputed offshore region. According to the BBC, an agreement had been reached between the countries, only to be scrapped by Abhisit and the last government.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12378001

[Guest]

The are basically arguing over a site which is small and has very little economic value. 

With a little cooperation, visitors from both countries could easily access the temple.

[Rogie]

The site is small, but it depends on more than that surely. If there really were angels dancing on the head of a pin I am sure it would be of great interest to some people. Apparently the angels expression can be used for speaking of matters of arguable interest, but that's not the case here as Preah Vihear ought to be a World Heritage site (I take a risk saying that because I admit I have no knowledge of how a place gets on the Heritage list, but I have visited the site and reckon it's worthy although of course there are many better, it just depends on the qualifying criteria).

 

I have now checked and as far as I can see it is now on the list.

 

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1224

 

I don't know why part of this site is in English and part in French. There is an option for either English or French. If you choose the French option, as you would expect it's all in French. If you choose English, parts of it are still - Mon Dieu! - in French! I don't get it.

[Guest]

I don't know why part of this site is in English and part in French.

Logically, NONE of the UNESCO site would be in French, or at least not until more commonly used languages such as Mandarin Chinese and Spanish have been catered for.

[Guest fountainhall]

UNESCO has two "working" languages - French and English - but four other "official" languages - Russian, Chinese, Spanish and Arabic. It kinda makes sense since UNESCO's base is in Paris and when the organisation was set up, few would have considered any language other than British and French as 'international' languages.

 

But I agree. In 2013, it makes little sense to my mind to include French, but then I'm not French. Chinese, Spanish and Arabic speakers vastly outnumber French speakers. Then again, they greatly outnumber native English speakers! So, who are we to talk?

 

As for the economic value of World Heritage sites, they are indeed many. But there are also many obligations in terms of long-term site preservation, management and protection.

 

I doubt if there is much chance of getting Thailand and Cambodia to co-operate in the near future. I suppose it's a little bit like the Falkands. In this day and age, surely it's kind of ridiculous that post-Imperial Britain hangs on to a tiny group of islands 13,000 kms away from London?

[Guest]

In this day and age, surely it's kind of ridiculous that post-Imperial Britain hangs on to a tiny group of islands 13,000 kms away from London?

The population of the Falkland Islands want to remain British.  We should support their choices, particularly as there may be some oil down there.

Now if we're going to roll back the clock on everything, will the US be conceding every single inch of territory back to native  Indians that have some spurious 150 year old claim?

[Rogie]

Agree. Let the islanders decide.

[pong]

If you have ever spent some time in TH and did a tiny bit more as gay s.x, then you musty have noted that logic thinking is not a Thai virtue.

This is the ''blood and bottom''(read earth) issue, that also fuelled many fascist european one-time regimes.

PLUS that Thai-KHmer relations have always, always been extremely tense-a bit like the Indians and the Paki's-always suspecting fraud and attack from the other side. Thai-Burmese are nearly as bad (the bUrmese captured and destroyed Ayuttaya!!-3/400 years ago-since then the Thai themselves destroyed it 5/6 times), but there is much more money to be m,ade by the Taksin cronies+supporters at the mo-the Kra canal and that new Dawei big port.

[Guest]

There are loads of other border disputes in Asia, particularly involving China v various countries and Japan v various countries.

[vinapu]

.... Preah Vihear ought to be a World Heritage site (I take a risk saying that because I admit I have no knowledge of how a place gets on the Heritage list, but I have visited the site and reckon it's worthy...................

 

 

Did you go there from Thai or Cambodian side of border? 

From one can see at miniature park  Muang Boran outside of Bangkok  site looks very intriguing and well deserving visit

[ChristianPFC]

will the US be conceding every single inch of territory back to native  Indians that have some spurious 150 year old claim?

 

Spurious claim? Is there any doubt that all of both Americas has been robbed from the native population by European invaders?

[Rogie]

 

 

If a bunch of invaders comes along and drives you off your land or tries to kill you, then years later it seems reasonable for that tribes descendants to have some sort of claim to that land.

 

It north America was a genuine wilderness, with no human life, and the white settlers got there first then sure any group claiming that land in 2013 based on ancestry would be fraudulent. 

 

But those two maps make it clear to me at least that north and central America were teeming with native American 'Indian' tribes. It looks to me there must have been relatively few places without any human habitation.

[Rogie]

Did you go there from Thai or Cambodian side of border?

From the Thai side. I used to think it wasn't possible to reach it from the Cambodian side owing to the geography, but apparently you can now. In fact that might be the only way to visit at the moment as access from the Thai side is closed at the border.

 

Here is a useful travel site:

 

http://wikitravel.org/en/Preah_Vihear

 

 

I have some photos on my other computer. I'll try and dig one or two out and post later.

[vinapu]

Spurious claim? Is there any doubt that all of both Americas has been robbed from the native population by European invaders?

No there's no doubt but history of humanity is history of conquer written by the winners.

 

Plenty of nations are sitting on territory robbed from somebody else in distant or not so distant past and likely are not moving anywhere bar the war. And who needs the war other than military-industrial complex like Eisenhower said? 

[vinapu]

From the Thai side. I used to think it wasn't possible to reach it from the Cambodian side owing to the geography, but apparently you can now. In fact that might be the only way to visit at the moment as access from the Thai side is closed at the border.

 

Here is a useful travel site:

 

http://wikitravel.org/en/Preah_Vihear

 

 

I have some photos on my other computer. I'll try and dig one or two out and post later.

Rogie,

you answered my other question before I even asked / access from Thai side /, thank you

 

waiting for pictures

 

Temple features also on new 2000 riel Cambodian banknote 

 

and by the way - this is very popular post among visitors to this board, it must be high on google list when one searches 'Preah Vihar" . At the moment there are 6 uses reading, yesterday it was even more when I was typing my post.

[Rogie]

This report on Preah Vihear is in two stages. The first one covers the Thai side of the border. Please note most of the text is taken from Lonely Planet Thailand 11th edition (September 2005). Any prices quoted will probably be different now.

 

The first photo shows we are inside Prasat Khao Phra Wihan National Park. Admission was 200 baht. The National Park, covering 130 sq-km, was founded in 1998.

 

 

The next two photos shows the Flagstaff of Thailand along with the Thai description.

 

 

Next we have a couple of old stupas.

 

 

 

 

Finally we come to the most interesting part on the Thai side. On the Pha Maw I Daeng cliff face is the oldest bas-relief in Thailand. It depicts three figures whose identities are an enigma to archaeologists and art historians. Although they give the general impression of representing deities, angels or kings, the iconography corresponds to no known figures in Thai, Mom or Khmer mythology. Stylistically the relief appears to date back to the Koh Ker (AD 921-45) period of Khmer art, when King Jayavarman IV ruled from his capital at Koh Ker.

 

This photo gives you an idea of the position of the carvings in relation to the cliff face. Looking at that photo again recently, my Thai friend only has to take one step back . . .!

 

 

 

 

As you can see the carving is on an overhanging section of the cliff and is accessed via some steep steps and a walkway. There is a locked grill to protect the carvings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Part 2 to follow

[vinapu]

1. Thank you Rogie, you promised , you delivered.
2.  
3. Did you take organized trip or just went there by car / train ?

International Court of Justice ruling is expected on Nov 11, hope it will not be  any commotion in BKK over this as nothing is expected to change status quo.

[Rogie]

Thank you for your comments Vinapu.

 

Main reason for the long delay in posting was I had some good photos but in quite a few either myself or my Thai friend were clearly identifiable. It took me a while to find a way to blur faces. I've never used Photo Shop and rightly or wrongly was led to believe you had to pay for that. So I was looking for a simple, uncomplicated method that was free! 

 

The site I eventually decided to use is called PhotoHide. Even for a non-techie person like myself it is dead easy to use. It's specifically aimed at exactly what I wanted it for, namely blurring people's faces.

 

http://www.photohide.com/

[Rogie]

Did you take organized trip or just went there by car / train ?

 

 

 

My friend and I went by car. In the days when I visited Pattaya I used to rent a car there and take it into Isarn to visit my friend's village and do a bit of touring (sight-seeing). 

 

On this occasion we drove as far as the Lao border at Khong Jiam, crossed over the Mekong to Lao (unoffically!) then visited Pha Taem NP, then southwards to the so-called Emerald Triangle, then headed back west, skirting round Ubon until we hit Kantharalak, a medium-sized town, where we stayed the night. Next day an easy journey to Preah Vihear. 

 

It can be done on public transport but I've had a quick look in LP and it's not that easy. There is a direct songthaew from Kantharalak but it's described as 'infrequent'. Otherwise, they suggest a motorcycle taxi or songthaew from either Kantharalak or Phum Saron. There's also the quite possibly long waiting times both there and back. Not a good place to be stranded at nightfall!

 

I would heartily recommend this type of road trip, ideally with a Thai person as companion. There are some great places to visit in eastern and south-easternThailand (Isarn). 

[vinapu]

Long time dream of mine to visit the place but I will be in Thailand right after ICJ verdict and not sure how it will be taken by Thai side, thye are closing border there quite often and as you noticed , not a good place to be stranded there.

 

Possible  taxi from Kantharalak is not a bad option, need to investigate.

[Rogie]

Preah Vihear Part 2

I’ve deliberately omitted any reference or comment regarding the current dispute between Thailand and Cambodia.

Once again, text is taken from Lonely Planet 'Thailand' 11th edition Sept 2005. Chief editor: Joe Cummings. Prices correct as of March 2007 when my Thai friend and I visited the site and these photos were taken.

Setting the scene

Preah Vihear (Khao Phra Wihan in Thai) is one of the region's great Angkor-period monuments. Straddling a 600 metre high cliff on the brow of the Dangrek (Dong Rek) escarpment and accessed by a series of stepped naga approaches, the large temple complex towers over the plains of Cambodia, offering dreamy views and some beautiful and evocative ruins.

We accessed Preah Vihear via the Prasat Khao Phra Wihan National Park, as seen in part 1 posted above.

A visitor centre marks the path into Cambodia and up to the temple – from here it is a 600 metre walk to the border, where you pay 5 baht to have your passport photocopied, and another 400 metres to the main entrance, where the Cambodian authorities collect their 200 baht fee.

Some history

The temple was constructed over two centuries under a succession of Khmer kings, beginning with Rajendravarman II in the mid-10th C. and ending with Suryavarman II in the early 12th C. (it was the latter who commanded the construction of Angkor Wat). The hill was sacred to Khmer Hindus for at least 500 years before the completion of the temple complex, however, and there were smaller brick monuments on the site prior to the reign of Rajendravarman II.

The temple complex is semirestored. During Khmer Rouge occupation, which lasted until Pol Pot’s death in 1998, the site suffered from the pilfering of artifacts – lintels and other carvings in particular – although some of the smuggled art has been intercepted and will eventually be returned to the site. One naga balustrade of around 30 metres is still intact; the first two gopura have all but fallen down and many of the buildings are roofless, but abundant examples of stone carving are intact and visible.

 

The first photo shows the steps up to the temple

 

Looking down the steps

 

The main prasat tower in the final court at the summit is in need of major restoration before the viewer can get a true idea of its former magnificence. Many of the stone carvings from the prasat are either missing or lie buried in nearby rubble. The galleries leading to the prasat have fared better and have even kept their arched roofs.

 

 

The doorways to the third gopuras have been nicely preserved and one (the inner door facing south) is surmounted by a well-carved stone lintel depicting Shiva and his consort Uma sitting on Nandi (Shiva’s bull), under the shade of a symmetrised tree.



A Vishnu ‘creation’ lintel is also visible on the second gopura. It shows Vishny climbing the churning stick.

 

 

Finally, a word of warning from Lonely Planet

Until 1998, the area around the temple witnessed heavy fighting between Khmer Rouge guerillas and the Phnom Penh governments, and landmines and artillery pieces still litter the surrounding forest – stick to the designated safety lanes leading to the ruins.

Also recommended

If you enjoy looking at Khmer temple ruins (in addition to Angkor Wat in Cambodia of course), there is another excellent Khmer temple complex at Phanom Rung in Buriram province; one big difference is Phanom Rung has been restored, and is well worth a visit if you are in the area. I think it would be difficult to visit both Phanom Rung and Preah Vihear on the same day. Both are ideally suited to leisurely independent travellers – especially keen photographers. For anyone interested in visiting Phanom Rung I’d suggest basing yourself in Surin, which has some decent hotels. Many of these sites are not easy to get to, so as I’ve already mentioned in a previous post, having your own transport (or perhaps hiring a taxi or booking the services of a local guide with his own transport) makes things run much more smoothly.

Be sure to go in the dry season, it cannot be enjoyable visiting in the rainy season as these kinds of historical sights are very exposed with little shelter on a day of continuous rain.

[vinapu]

Thank you very much Rogie,

 

I'm just packing and ready to go to LOS. Preah Vihar  likely needs to wait for me for my  next time as with ICJ ruling expected on Monday I'm not sure what reaction in both countries will be nad did not plan to go there this November.

 

Site looks fabulous and I'm salivating to see it since old ruins are my  favorites almost as much as young silky skinned men.

[ceejay]

The judgement has been announced. The court has, on first reading, found entirely in favour of Cambodia and awarded all of the disputed territory to them. Thailand has been ordered to withdraw all troops and other officials from this area. It will be interesting to see what the Thai press make of it - not to mention the ultra nationalist groups.

[Bob]

It will be interesting to see what the Thai press make of it - not to mention the ultra nationalist groups.

The Thai press seems to be taking it well.  Both The Nation and the Bangkok Post mention that Cambodia won sovereignty over the promontory area but that they lost regarding a nearby hill.  The Nation's lead article starts out "We both won."  Having read the ICJ's judgment, I'd paint those comments as a little "face saving" as Cambodia substantially (and, in my view, logically and justifiably) won the case.

 

As to what the wacky people will do, I see that one group is already calling on the military to ignore the ruling and to consider the ICJ as totally lacking authority over the matter.  I'm at least thankful that Sarah Palin can't see the temple from her house....