Is Astrology all babble and bunkum? or something similar

[Rogie]

Arithmatic and arithitemic? pah! Morris minor came across this much more interesting word

 

Arithmancy

 

The Agrippan method

 

 

In this method, the letters of a recent version of the Latin alphabet (with "U" and "V" considered to be separate letters, and "I" and "J" also considered distinct, which was not common until the 18th century), are assigned numerical values 1-9 as follows:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

A B C D E F G H I

J K L M N O P Q R

S T U V W X Y Z

 

Based on these values, the value for a person's name is calculated. If the result is greater than 9, the values of the digits in the number are added up until it is reduced to a single-digit number.

 

This is a system used to predict the strengths and weaknesses in a person, by using the heart number, the social/life number, and the character/personality number. The heart number is determined by adding together only the vowels in a person's name. The social number is calculated by using only consonants. The character number is determined when both vowels and consonants are used.

 

A similar approach is to use the numbers from a person's birthday to derive their character number. Each of these numbers is considered to have a suitable predictive meaning. Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa first applied the concept to the current Latin alphabet in the 16th century and it has been widely used. It is often called Pythagorean, but is not connected to Pythagoras

 

(courtesy of wikipedia)

[Rogie]

How it Works

The first step in analyzing a name (or word) by arithmancy is to convert it to a set of numbers. Each letter of the alphabet is assigned a numerical value between 1 and 9, according to the following chart: The letters A, J, and S have the value of 1. B, K, and T have the value of 2, and so forth. If the total is more than 9-which it usually is-it must be "reduced" to a single digit by adding the component numbers together, more than once, if necessary. Thus, 58 reduces to 13 (5 + 8 = 13), which reduces to 4 (1 + 3 = 4). The final result (in this example, 4) is known as the Character Number. This number indicates the general personality type of the individual. The next number calculated is the Heart Number. This number represents the individual's inner life and can indicate desires and fears hidden from others. The Heart Number is the reduced total of all the vowels in the name. This final number calculated is the Social Number. This number represents the outer personality, the face an individual shows to the outside world. The Social Number is the reduced total of all the consonants in the name.

To find out your Character Number, Heart Number, and Social Number, type in your name in the box below. Then refer to the chart of traditional arithmancy interpretations to see what your numbers mean.

 

If you want to enter your screen name in the box . . . go to website

See post 44 below

 

 

R-O-G-I-E

 

Character Number: 9

Heart Number : 2

Social Number: 7

What the Numbers Mean 1 This is the number of the individual, the solitary unit. Ones are independent, focused, and determined. They set a goal and stick to it. They are leaders and inventors. Ones find it difficult to work with others and don't like to take orders. They can be self-centered, egotistical, and domineering. They are often loners. Two represents interaction, two-way communication, cooperation, and balance. Twos are imaginative, creative, and sweet natured. Peace, harmony, commitment, loyalty, and fairness are characteristic. But two also introduces the idea of conflict, opposing forces, and the contrasting sides of things: night and day, good and evil. Twos can be withdrawn, moody, self-conscious and indecisive. 3 Three represents the idea of completeness or wholeness, as in the threesomes past-present-future and mind-body-spirit. Three indicates talent, energy, an artistic nature, humor, and social ease. Threes are often lucky, easygoing, and highly successful, but they can also be unfocused, easily offended, and superficial. 4 Like a table that rests solidly on four legs, four indicates stability and firmness. Fours enjoy hard work. They are practical, reliable and down to earth; they prefer logic and reason to flights of fancy. They are good at organization and getting things done. Like the cycle of the four seasons, they are also predictable. They can be stubborn, suspicious, overly practical and prone to angry outbursts. The conflicts possible in "two" are doubled in four. 5 Five is the number of instability and imbalance, indicating change and uncertainty. Fives are drawn to many things at once but commit to none. They are adventurous, energetic and willing to take risks. They enjoy travel and meeting new people but may not stay in one place very long. Fives can be conceited, irresponsible, quick-tempered and impatient. 6 Six represents harmony, friendship, and family life. Sixes are loyal, reliable, and loving. They adapt easily. They do well in teaching and the arts, but are often unsuccessful in business. They are sometimes prone to gossip and complacency. 7 Perceptive, understanding, and bright, sevens enjoy hard work and challenges. They are often serious, scholarly, and interested in all things mysterious. Originality and imagination are more important than money and material possessions. Sevens can also be pessimistic, sarcastic, and insecure. 8 Eight indicates the possibility of great success in business, finance, and politics. Eights are practical, ambitious, committed, and hard working. They can also be jealous, greedy, domineering, and power-hungry. Eight is said to be the most unpredictable of numbers and can indicate the pinnacle of success or the depths of failure; the potential to go either way is present from the beginning. 9 Represents completion and achievement to the fullest degree (as it is the complete number, three, expressed three times). Nines dedicate themselves to service, often as teachers, scientists, and humanitarians. Strongly determined, they work tirelessly and are an inspiration to others. However, they can also be arrogant and conceited when things don't go their way.

[Rogie]

Here is website for above post, it got messed up before and wouldn't link.

 

http://www.sorcererscompanion.net/arithmancy.html

[Guest fountainhall]

One question: when you/the site mention name, do you mean just one's forename/Christian name or the full name with all 2/3/4 or more names included? I find there is quite a difference in the result between my first name and my full name. Does that mean I have a split personality????

[Rogie]

I don't know the answer to your question FH. My hunch would be whatever name you are more commonly prefer to be known, so if for example your Christian or forename is James but you like to be called Jim, I would use that, plus your surname. The worked example they give on the website uses both fore and surname.

 

I don't take this kind of thing seriously so just entered my screen name for a laugh.

 

As 'Rogie' I am:

 

Character Number: 9

Heart Number : 2

Social Number: 7

 

Character Number. This number indicates the general personality type of the individual.

 

'9' Represents completion and achievement to the fullest degree (as it is the complete number, three, expressed three times). Nines dedicate themselves to service, often as teachers, scientists, and humanitarians. Strongly determined, they work tirelessly and are an inspiration to others. However, they can also be arrogant and conceited when things don't go their way.

 

Heart Number. This number represents the individual's inner life and can indicate desires and fears hidden from others.

 

'2' represents interaction, two-way communication, cooperation, and balance. Twos are imaginative, creative, and sweet natured. Peace, harmony, commitment, loyalty, and fairness are characteristic. But two also introduces the idea of conflict, opposing forces, and the contrasting sides of things: night and day, good and evil. Twos can be withdrawn, moody, self-conscious and indecisive.

 

Social Number. This number represents the outer personality, the face an individual shows to the outside world.

 

'7': Perceptive, understanding, and bright, sevens enjoy hard work and challenges. They are often serious, scholarly, and interested in all things mysterious. Originality and imagination are more important than money and material possessions. Sevens can also be pessimistic, sarcastic, and insecure.

 

 

 

 

[Guest fountainhall]

Jeez! That is just so uncanny! Now I'll have to go and see my astrologer!

[Rogie]

From your comment, do I take it you used the Agrippan method FH? For real, or did you use your screen name?

[Guest fountainhall]

Used my real name - although only first and last. This morning I tried it using my middle names as well. It seems even more accurate!!! Is there something in the way they write these descriptions that make them apply to almost anyone?

 

Makes me think of Chinese names which should generally have a specific number of brush strokes in the characters depending on how the parents wish them to grow up.

[Rogie]

Is there something in the way they write these descriptions that make them apply to almost anyone?

 

I reckon so. In any of the numbers taken individually there is likely to be something that applies to you, as they cover a lot of bases. However, if all three of the character, heart and social scores seem to you to be accurate then the explanation isn't immediately obvious.

 

Will you be making an appointment with an astrolger FH? Your use of the possessive adjective 'my' in an earlier post implies you are no stranger to astrology. Just curious, you don't have to respond to my nosy-ness!

 

Makes me think of Chinese names which should generally have a specific number of brush strokes in the characters depending on how the parents wish them to grow up.

 

Surely certain traits are going to be a lot more popular than others, so logically that would create a lot of similar brush strokes and hence names. I wonder what 'Mao' means for example. I suspect there are many baby Mao's in China named after the Great Leader Mao Tse Tung, but that would have nothing to do with brush strokes at all, just naming by association.

 

Presumably by looking at a Chinese person's name and comparing it to his achievements etc one can determine whether this idea of brush strokes equalling a person's character is a load of baloney or not.

[Guest fountainhall]

Your use of the possessive adjective 'my' in an earlier post implies you are no stranger to astrology

 

Indeed I am not. I had my full chart read on three separate occasions. Early in my time in Hong Kong, I happened to meet a middle-aged lady who was very much into astrology. She had never met me before and knew nothing about me. She agreed to draw up and interpret my chart, and so I gave her the relevant bits of information – date, time and place of birth etc. Three weeks later, we met up again for the reading.

 

All I can really say is that I sat there for some three hours feeling as though I had been stripped bare physically and mentally. She knew so much about me that it was beyond uncanny! She also predicted I would not make a major change in my career, something I had been brooding about for some months.

 

I had the same feeling with the other readings, about two years apart. I should add that the predictions were not based merely on physical things. How I thought of something or how I was reacting mentally to situations was very much part of the readings. Whilst I have not had my chart read since then, I was totally converted to the idea that there is a helluva lot more to astrology than mere mumb jumbo.

 

I was also encouraged to read a book titled “The Nature of Personal Reality” by Jane Roberts. This is where some readers will switch right off, because the book was channeled through Ms. Roberts by someone called Seth who happened to live several hundred years earlier. As I later learned, there is a whole series of Seth books. Essentially this one provides insights into how we shape our own reality and, more importantly, how we can change it. I won’t say more, but you can read some of the reviews on amazon. I think it’s very interesting to note that of 108 reviews, a huge 98 give it 5 stars and three 4 stars. That’s surely an indication of how important readers feel it has been in their lives.

 

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1878424068

[kokopelli]

Jeez! That is just so uncanny! Now I'll have to go and see my astrologer!

 

Oh, oh, I hope you do not de-friend me? But the number game, and it is a game, posted by Rogie and all numerology, astrology, psychics, tarot, fortune telling, etc is all babble and bunkum in my not so humble opinion. I actually did lose a friend who believed in all of the above including big foot, alien abductions, alien spacecraft, etc. There is the Theory of Numbers which does have scientific and mathematical validity.

[Bob]

I was totally converted to the idea that there is a helluva lot more to astrology than mere mumb jumbo.

 

It appears you're in line to buy that bridge I have for sale. Cheap, too!

[Guest fountainhall]

Funny you should say that! Somehow I've already got more bridges than I can handle

[Guest thaiworthy]

I burned all my bridges when I left the USA!

[Guest fountainhall]

all numerology, astrology, psychics, tarot, fortune telling, etc is all babble and bunkum in my not so humble opinion

 

There is a lovely story about the famous - and very gay - Australian ballet dancer, Sir Robert Helpmann. Crossing one of the wide Avenues in New York, unknowingly he dropped his umbrella. Seeing this, the burly cop on duty shouted out: "Hey, fairy! You dropped your wand!" Without batting an eyelid, Helpmann turned around, picked up the umbrella, swished it across his face and shouted: "Vanish!"

 

I have my umbrella in hand, Khun Koko. Careful!!

[Rogie]

I wonder if anybody's conducted any kind of rigorous investigation into these phenomena? For example take a group of people - a mix of sexes, ages, ethnicity, lifestyles etc - collect a thorough life history from them, including their most private thoughts, then randomly allocate each of them an astrologer. Astrologer gives his/her 'reading' or whatever the right word is, and the results are examined by a panel of neutral observers. The people who've met an astrologer would also be invited to comment on the precision or otherwise of their reading.

[Rogie]

Suggestion to mod.

 

As we have departed from the original subject of this thread would it be possible to move all posts from #41 onwards into a new topic, called something like Is Astrology all babble and bunkum? or something similar.

 

Thanks.

[Guest jomtien]

Here it is.

[kokopelli]

Rogie, at first the idea of conducting a rigorous study of astrology or other types of babble and bunkum seems reasonable but to do a scientific study of nonsense is somewhat oxymoronic. People such as the Great Randy have spent a lifetime trying to debunk such nonsense but people want to believe in the unbelievable. Even the author, Conan Doyle, the creator of Sherlock Holmes believed in "fairies". As Kuhn Worthy the Magician can tell us, people like to be baffled. For astrology how could it be possible that some random grouping of stars that are light years away and not even close to each other somehow affect or determine human life in any way?

[Rogie]

Yes, it does seem incredible, and there are many other strange phenomena that baffle the unbeliever. The believer is not baffled, just content to accept it as a 'truth'. The field of medicine is another area rich in these kinds of things, usually referred to as 'alternative medicine'. Things such as acupuncture, homeopathy, psychic healing, reflexology, etc some more 'outlandish' than others, with some such as acupuncture accepted as a valid methodology by the mainstream.

 

Perhaps scientific is not the best word to use when investigating things like this. Yes, it has to be systematic and of course statistics must be used to decide if the observed result is significant, i.e. deviates from randomness beyond what might have been expected by sheer chance. A good example of such studies is extra-sensory perception (ESP). Hundreds of experiments have been done but as yet there is no firm conclusion.

 

Here is the protocol:

 

In a typical ganzfeld experiment, a "receiver" is placed in a room relaxing in a comfortable chair with halved ping-pong balls over the eyes, having a red light shone on them. The receiver also wears a set of headphones through which white or pink noise (static) is played. The receiver is in this state of mild sensory deprivation for half an hour. During this time, a "sender" observes a randomly chosen target and tries to mentally send this information to the receiver. The receiver speaks out loud during the thirty minutes, describing what he or she can see. This is recorded by the experimenter (who is blind to the target) either by recording onto tape or by taking notes, and is used to help the receiver during the judging procedure.

 

In the judging procedure, the receiver is taken out of the ganzfeld state and given a set of possible targets, from which they must decide which one most resembled the images they witnessed. Most commonly there are three decoys along with a copy of the target itself, giving an expected overall hit rate of 25% over several dozens of trials.

 

A sceptic, Ray Hyman, went on record:

 

In a 1995 paper discussing some of the challenges, deficiencies and achievements of modern laboratory parapsychology Ray Hyman said,

 

Obviously, I do not believe that the contemporary findings of parapsychology, [...] justify concluding that anomalous mental phenomena have been proven. [...] [A]cceptable evidence for the presence of anomalous cognition must be based on a positive theory that tells us when psi should and should not be present. Until we have such a theory, the claim that anomalous cognition has been demonstrated is empty.[...] I want to state that I believe that the SAIC experiments as well as the contemporary ganzfeld experiments display methodological and statistical sophistication well above previous parapsychological research. Despite better controls and careful use of statistical inference, the investigators seem to be getting significant results that do not appear to derive from the more obvious flaws of previous research.

—Ray Hyman, The Journal of Parapsychology, December 1995[22]

 

The importance of using a random 'normal' population in such studies is discussed here:

 

Parapsychologists have investigated certain personality traits and characteristics as potential psi-conducive variables, suggesting that most researchers share the view that these variables play an important role in ESP performance. These factors are thought to be positively correlated with increased scores in ganzfeld experiments, as compared to unselected participants. Traits and characteristics of subjects thought to increase the chance of obtaining a successful hit rate in a psi experiment include:

 

Positive belief in psi; ESP

Prior psi experiences

Practicing a mental discipline such as meditation

Creativity

Artistic ability

Emotional closeness with the sender

 

I like this insistence by Hyman "Acceptable evidence for the presence of anomalous cognition must be based on a positive theory that tells us when psi should and should not be present. Until we have such a theory, the claim that anomalous cognition has been demonstrated is empty."

 

Sounds like good rigorous science, but easier said than done! Has anyone come up with any theories yet?

 

So, when might a convincingly accurate astrology reading be provided and when not? I could have a theory that it happens when the astrologer is genuine and doesn't happen when he/she is a fraudster, but that's just plain obvious. Why does it 'seem' to happen when the astrologer is genuine? Well we need some studies to test that and as can be seen from the parapsychology field they are far from easy to perform to everybody's satisfaction.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_experiment

[Guest fountainhall]

There have already been a number of experiments conducted but in many the data seems to have been skewed.

 

The real problem, though, is that notwithstanding any research findings, some people will always believe it’s bunkum - largely because, as with religious faith, there is no concrete proof.

 

Others, like Carl Jung, the founder of analytical psychology, did believe in astrology and the influence of the planets when people are born. Part of his reasoning, amongst others, was the study of 483 married couples and the influence of astrological patterns in determining which were the most conducive to lasting relationships.

 

Personally, I can only base my views on my experience. My astrologer friend was not a professional astrologer and I paid her no money – unless a couple of dinners constitutes a fee. She had never met me before we were first introduced. She could have asked other friends (only a couple of whom she knew) for details of me, but they tell me she did not. Even so, some of what she ‘found’ in my chart was nothing that I had discussed with anyone else. Granted, she was interpreting actual astrological facts and patterns she saw in front of her. Yet, that chart told her things only I knew or about which I was roughly aware.

 

So, yes at one time I was a sceptic. Throughout millennia, so were others. Yet, countless others have conducted great affairs of state only after consultation with astrologers, and simple peasants have waited for auspicious heavenly times to take one action or another. Just because something cannot be conclusively proved, though, who are we to say it is wrong?

 

Astrology has been debunked throughout the ages partly because it did not suit some of the powers-that-be to acknowledge that it might in fact have merit. The Church has long seen astrology as subversive. Astrology is also at odds with the perception of free will liberated during The Enlightenment.

 

Jung is quoted as saying: “"Astrology represents the summation of all the psychological knowledge of antiquity." Others have been as enthusiastic.

 

Louis Pasteur said “The controls of life are structured as forms and nuclear arrangements, in a relation with the motions of the universe."

 

Even Albert Einstein said: “Astrology is a science in itself and contains an illuminating body of knowledge. It taught me many things and I am greatly indebted to it.”

 

Of course, the anti-astrology brigade brandish their own theories and pithy one-liners. Arthur C. Clarke famously wrote: “I don't believe in astrology; I'm a Sagittarius and we're skeptical!”

 

One of the best, surely, was from Donald Regan, the Chief of Staff to President Ronald Reagan: "It's common knowledge that a large percentage of Wall Street brokers use astrology." And we know where that got us in 2008!

[Rogie]

 

Jung is quoted as saying: “"Astrology represents the summation of all the psychological knowledge of antiquity." Others have been as enthusiastic.

 

Louis Pasteur said “The controls of life are structured as forms and nuclear arrangements, in a relation with the motions of the universe."

 

Even Albert Einstein said: “Astrology is a science in itself and contains an illuminating body of knowledge. It taught me many things and I am greatly indebted to it.”

 

Interesting quotes. Shows there is a mystic side to even the most celebrated scientists. They tie in with some thoughts I had yesterday regarding the origins of astrology, the constellations, star signs and so on. Mankind has always been looking to explain things and throughout millenia the more curious of our species have tussled with trying to make sense of the world as they perceive it. Inevitably many people became superstitious and believed in all sorts of things - to take a probably still current one as a silly example, the idea if you are with a group of smoking friends and one of them offers you the 'third light' you make an excuse not to accept it - but I don't think astrology falls into that camp.

 

Nowadays it is like many of us in the developed world are on a giant roller-coaster which goes around in perpetuity, but rather like the earth spinnning on its axis, people don't realise their situation. To them it's just life as they know it. I think this is a quite recent development - until recently mankind observed the seasons, he got up at daybreak and went to bed at nightfall, and as there were few distractions such as computers, television or radio he had plenty of time at the end of a hard day's work to contemplate his life. He tried to make sense of existence, the 'why are we here' and 'what are we here for'? moments. Not surprisingly, the sky at night was a wonderful sight to behold. Small wonder their high significance as people saw shapes amongst the stars and the way the constellations moved around the heavens they sought a deeper meaning. The opposite in fact of the classic science fiction short story by Isaac Asimov Nightfall where a society has never seen the stars owing to light pollution and when their advanced civilisation crumbles and the stars become visible they panic!

 

[kokopelli]

Regarding Fountainhall's experience it is obvious that personal experience is a powerful teacher which can make one a believer. I do have some thoughts on the matter of readings whether astrological, tarot, tea leaves, etc.

For one thing, the mechanisms used such as tarot cards or astrological charts are simply a mean of sleight of hand to add legitimacy to the reading. Basically a ritual with no real power much like the magician's wand, holy water, incense etc. It is the skill of the Reader, who through personal observation of the client and years of practice, can present a convincing argument of their physic ability. Another thought is somewhat different. In this scenario the Reader actually does use the charts and cards and literally interprets them using some sort of cookbook formula. And some of the results are designed to apply to everyone at some time or the other. In other words, if the shoe fits, wear it or one size fits all. Whatever, the position of the stars in the sky has no affect on people unless a stray piece of space detritus falls on their head.

 

For Fountainhall I foresee both good and bad happenings in the coming years. There will be love and joy but followed by sadness and sorrow in his life. He will do well financially and will not have to be concerned with money as long as he does not squander it on a boy who will tug on his heart strings. Beware what you find on Gay Romeo. He will remain in good health and live long unless he neglects the advice of his doctors as he has sometimes done. I also see a very generous man who appreciates the finer things of life, such as Dom Perignon, and loves to share such with people he never met. Psychopelli.

[Guest fountainhall]

Ah, dear Phsychopelli. You have hidden depths, for I am shocked at your penetrating insight into some of my attributes. But, alas. you have no idea how 'out' you are in some key respects. I will not mention money, for if I had anywhere near enough, I would not still be working and moaning when work is hard to find. Also, I come from a family that is totally medical - true! One grandfather, my father, every uncle, both my brother and sister, and every cousin was/is either a doctor or in the profession. My doctor in Bangkok recommends annual check-ups. My brother and sister both advise they are a complete waste of time and they have never had even one! So which doctor's advice do i take?

 

But you are correct. I enjoy the finer things in life - when I can afford them. And I have been fortunate to have worked with one or two people who shared the same enthusiasms. Once, when working for a rather famous impresario when we were paid peanuts but permitted to travel first class on intercontinental flights, my immediate superior and I were in the BA first class lounge at Heathrow about to fly to Singapore. My colleague, David, asked if I thought there would be caviar serviced on the plane. I was sure it would, but said I'd check. At the desk, I asked the rather snooty attendant, who said: "Oh, I'm sure it will be - SIR!." "Will you kindly check?" I asked. Sourly, she agreed to do so.

 

A few minutes later, I was summoned to the desk to be told by a much more sheepish attendant that caviar was not on the menu. I told David. A scream of "F--k!" resounded around the first class lounge, whereupon in high dudgeon he upped and left. "See you on the plane," he said.

 

On the plane, I detected a glint in his eye. As soon as we took off, he took out from his rucksack a brown bag, Inside, was £250 worth of caviar (this was 1993 when caviar was a lot cheaper than now) and a packet of Melba toast. As soon as the crew came round the cabin, David asked for two glasses of Krug champagne, two side plates, two knives, two tea spoons and two pattiess of butter. Curious, the lady did as requested and set our tables, whereupon the caviar appeared. "Ooh, you are lucky! You've got caviar!" she exclaimed. "Yes," said David. "That's because your f--king airline is too cheap to serve it!"

 

The other passengers were none too happy as we ate it all, savouring each mouthful

 

Oh happy days!

[bkkguy]

Even Albert Einstein said: “Astrology is a science in itself and contains an illuminating body of knowledge. It taught me many things and I am greatly indebted to it.”

 

all references to this quotation seem to be traceable back to a single 1951 book by Swiss-Canadian astrologer Werner Hirsig and so far nobody has been able to identify a verifiable source for this from collections of Einstein's writings and speaches

 

compare this with a 1943 letter to a Eugene Simon where Einstein says

 

I fully agree with you concerning the pseudo-science of astrology. The interesting point is that this kind of superstition is so tenacious that it could persist through so many centuries.

 

you show me your sources and I'll show you mine - but they are easily googled

 

personally I will stick with Neil deGrasse Tyson, an astrophysicist who heads the Hayden Planetarium in New York:

 

astrology was discredited 600 years ago with the birth of modern science. "To teach it as though you are contributing to the fundamental knowledge of an informed electorate is astonishing in this, the 21st century," he said.

Education should be about knowing how to think, Tyson said. "And part of knowing how to think is knowing how the laws of nature shape the world around us. Without that knowledge, without that capacity to think, you can easily become a victim of people who seek to take advantage of you."

 

bkkguy