Gay listings or gay archeology?

[pong]

It seems an inevitable fact of gay life for PLU that there must be listings etc where we are suppoed to go to or ''are welcome''. Inevitably, commercialism will creep in and there is always a need for paid advertsing to get the ting rolling.

Oldhands will remember the Spartacus guidebooks-full of codes, symbols : PWC! OYR or so-proceed with caution or On your own risk! and showing the young gay that there must be an enormous world behind his own area. Checking the area you would know best inevitably led to many shakes of disbelief and ''OMG-is that place gay? or so. And the flagrant degradation of the Pagsanjan waterfalls in PH that came with it-those were the days.

Now there is this www and thus much easier to copycat and make your own-lists. As for venuews in TH, these are the ones I came across, but there may be even more:

dreadedned, dragoncastle (merged with former thailandout) ,nickysgay(Placename), utopia-asia, stickyrice. The latter 2 are for all_Asia and cover thus much more. Gayscout covers the whole world. Gaygetter does too.

Now lately I have myself trying to get the real, checked uptodate list-and that was a mean task. It is that I think I know gay BKK pretty well out of the Silom-clone ghetto and for longer as last week. And that I have to travel cross BKK anyway for many days-also a mean task. Then you see places listed that have vanished 8-9 years ago, with even the building vanished and replaced by a condoblock or so. OK-I understand these places cannot check each entry every week-but once a year would seem feasible? Or it is: webmaster has high hopes-that gets splashed- leaves the job or has to-no money coming in-and who would advertise in a site that lists places long since gone-people will think yours will be too.

Or you get the revolving thing; lists 1 and 2 list place A-closed. Someone notifies list 1 that it is-removed. Now some goodwilling soul steps in and mentions to list 1 that list 2 lists place A-and the new webmaster has no memory and relists a closed place!

WHY WHY do these lists not cooperate and do together-in these times of www that is what this www is for.

[Guest fountainhall]


WHY WHY do these lists not cooperate and do together-in these times of www that is what this www is for.

 

Pong, you’ve made several great posts today. This one in particular affects everyone.

 

I remember Spartacus well and how I eagerly awaited each new annual edition. Its entries in cites like Hamburg and Amsterdam were usually pretty accurate, but I was often disappointed about the listings for Asia. Yet, Spartacus directed me to my first gay venues in many cities. In Manila it was Coca Bananas, and later the go-go at 690 Retiro Strip which had some really handsome guys. In Bangkok, the Apollo in Silom Soi 4 and then Barbiery and Twilight, later saunas like Volt off Asoke and Obelisks with its roof-top jacuzzi and just one tiny lift if you got tired of walking up and down its ten stories! In Singapore, the old Vincent’s Lounge in Lucky Plaza. In Tokyo, Fuji and the long defunct Regent Bar, and the Oban sauna. Ah, memories!

 

I also remember that den of iniquity around the Pagsanjan Falls where, in addition to a galaxy of gay guys waiting to be picked up, parents seemed to be perfectly happy to come and negotiate rates for their children! I certainly hope that has changed.

 

I agree with you entirely that those who compile listings in the Land of Smiles do so with very little success. The basic problem to my eyes is that too many people are making only partial lists of what’s available only in what pong terms the Suk/Silom tourist ghetto. My own travels to seek out other venues are a tiny fraction of pong’s but, as on my visit to Lookmespa, they have sometimes been pleasant and worthwhile. More should be done to get non-central venues listed and then to update the listings regularly.

 

There are clearly several major problems.

 

1. The proliferation and geographical spread of venues. It will take one person a vast amount of time to check every one out and then to update regularly on an annual basis.

 

2. The apparent unwillingness of a lot of owners to provide updated information to a central processing point. (Is this because some establishments are not officially registered?)

 

3. I expect the majority of the Thai-for-Thai venues may not be so interested in being part of a western-oriented Guide. On the other hand. If one or more Thais are involved in the data collection, perhaps that might change.

 

4. Most of the establishments are Thai owned and run. Do these guys really want to be part of a bigger city Guide? As was discussed on another thread, do any of them really want – or can be persuaded - to change the way they do business?

 

There will no doubt be others. But let’s remember the benefits of such a mass of updated data. It would become the one guide viewed by most gays visiting and many living in BKK – and Pattaya and other cities if the Guide can be extended nationwide. Worldwide annual readership could be well in excess of 500,000. The potential for generating revenues from advertising and the venues themselves could surely more than pay off the website and basic staffing costs.

 

You don’t even have to work out a system for the listings. Japan already has one that can be used as the template. Its annual pink gay guide lists almost all the gay establishments in the major cities. Each has a small map (and I am sure also GPS co-ordinates since I last got a copy), transport directions, opening times, and - the key issue - a point-by-point list of the type of clients it attracts - e.g. its (Spartacus-like) icons tell you the age range, body-weight range, whether it’s for older Japanese tops looking for younger Japanese btms, slim looking for chub, younger Japanese looking for older gaijin, only those into SM . . . and so on. The variety is infinite. It is a smallish, pocket-sized book, all done with typical Japanese detail and efficiency.

 

This Guide does not include advertising. With over 300 gay establishments in Tokyo’s Shinjuku ni-chome alone, that would make it massively bulky, and so you have to buy it. It's also only in Japanese, but with a bit of work it’s not difficult to work out the main points.

 

BKK/Thailand could have something similar on the web as well as a printed version for carrying around, since I reckon there would be too much information for most visitors to bother printing out.

 

But – the clincher is: who gets the info, who collates it and who persuades the owners that it is in their interest to keep the updated info flowing? I don’t believe one person or one of the existing websites can do it alone. As pong suggests, either two or more existing sites agree to take this on board, or a new group of investors gets together. The initial investment would not be much, the more so if the members of the group take it upon themselves to do the annual research. Anyone interested in joining such a group?

[Guest anonone]

A couple intersting points brought out here.

 

I believe there are two different audiences for this material. The first seems to be the audience for the Nickysgaypattaya type site. A first time visitor researching an area to determine where to stay, what to do and how things work.

 

Several years ago, when I planned my first trip to Thailand, this site in particular was very helpful. Their "guide/article" for a newbie on how the gogo bars worked was brilliant and really helpful. (Interesting side note: I checked their site and now cannot find the article at all. I will be sending them a request to get it back.)

 

I still browse to their site occassionally, especially before heading back to Thailand. Their weekly email is also pretty well done and worth a read. Out of all the weblistings, theirs seems to be the most "up to date".

 

However, this content will not be of much value to the second audience. This is the expat or long time visitor that is now looking for more variety and off-the-path type places. During a rare longer visit, I journeyed out to Isan for a couple of days and really enjoyed it. A much different experience and one that Nickys site would not be able to help with. When I am fortunate enough to figure out a way to live in Thailand, my interest in the Nicky-type material will lessen markedly. I will have the time to explore the more isolated areas and a guide such as pong suggests would be of great value.

 

Of the two audiences, I beleive the first, touristy-type group is much larger. It also is the audience that is more valuable for advertisers. It also validates why there are so many of these listing-sites out there.

 

When someone only has a week in Thailand, they will be more likely to stay in the action zones. Silom/Suk area of Bangkok or the BT/Sunee/Jomtien zones of Pattaya.

[Guest]

As I see it, the available gay listings for Thailand are superior to offerings in other countries. There are several websites, some are reasonably up to date & there are 2~3 monthly booklets, which also have maps printed in them.

 

Now go somewhere like Laos or Cambodia & it gets a lot more difficult. Cambodia Out has possibly the best listings for Laos.

Of course, Laos has a very small & more discrete gay scene, but that makes good listings all the more critical. If there is just ONE low profile gay bar open, you need to find it.

 

Travel to some countries in Eastern Europe and the sole source of information would often be an out of date website. This will typically listing 2~3 venues spread over a large area, of which some closed at least 2 years earlier. Or Spartacus, which suffers the same problem with out of date listings.

[Guest Jovianmoon]

You don’t even have to work out a system for the listings. Japan already has one that can be used as the template. Its annual pink gay guide lists almost all the gay establishments in the major cities. Each has a small map (and I am sure also GPS co-ordinates since I last got a copy), transport directions, opening times, and - the key issue - a point-by-point list of the type of clients it attracts - e.g. its (Spartacus-like) icons tell you the age range, body-weight range, whether it’s for older Japanese tops looking for younger Japanese btms, slim looking for chub, younger Japanese looking for older gaijin, only those into SM . . . and so on. The variety is infinite. It is a smallish, pocket-sized book, all done with typical Japanese detail and efficiency...This Guide does not include advertising. With over 300 gay establishments in Tokyo’s Shinjuku ni-chome alone, that would make it massively bulky, and so you have to buy it. It's also only in Japanese, but with a bit of work it’s not difficult to work out the main points.

 

Ahh... the Otoko-machi Mappu! I remember it well. I have to say that book was invaluable to me when I lived in Japan. It was certainly as detailed as you described. I have fond memories of telephoning suburban bars from the book to ask if they were 'gaijin-friendly', and sometimes being pleasantly surprised with an enthusiastic reply of 'mochiron' ('of course'), followed by an offer to be escorted from the nearest railway station to the bar by a staff member. I have to say I think we'd be pushed to find that kind of hospitality in Bangkok. But then, the bars in rural/suburban Japan are typically smaller and need all the punters they can get!

 

Cheers.