The Growing Affliction Affecting Younger Thais

[Guest fountainhall]

I had dinner the other night with a Thai guy I have known for 9 years, since he was a 19-year old student (looking for a first sexual adventure with a farang ). For the last 2 years he has had a really good job earning around Bt. 65,000 per month. He still stays with his family, but contributes to the family budget and puts up most of the cash needed to put his younger brother through University. He’s a good friend, and, in all respects but one, a very engaging, level-headed young man.

 

That ‘one’ is credit card debt! Like most Thai men in their younger years, he wants a lot – and not only the latest smart phone and iPad. He loves travelling, having once worked for an airline’s ground staff. Last month, thanks to a friend who gave him a ton of air miles he was unable to use, my friend flew to Australia. He knew no-one there, could not afford to spend 8 days in what is now a very expensive country – but he “wanted to do it.”

 

I have played the Suze Orman role with him before, but then he has never had much debt before. Now, in less than 2 years, he has over Bt. 400,000 due on his credit cards. Once again I read the riot act, pointing out that the 20%+ interest he is paying every year would, after 2 or 3 years, be more than enough to put a deposit on a small apartment. In one ear, out the other! He reckons he can easily get by for the remaining 2 years of his brother’s education, and then he will start paying the debt down.

 

I made him promise me that he will start now with small repayments of principal, even if it is only 4,000 per month. At least that will get him into the habit of making small reductions. It will never happen!

 

I told him of another Thai friend of mine whom I have known for several years longer. 6 or so years ago, he ended up maxed out on about 15 cards with Bt. 600,000 of debt – and his salary was only around Bt. 20,000. Several times, I told him what to do – go to the various banks and stores, tell them you can’t pay, negotiate a repayment schedule over 3 years, and at the very least get the principal capped. It would mean a very tough 3 years, but it would solve the problem and ensure he kept some sort of credit status. I even offered to go with him to the negotiations.

 

No! He would do it his way. And that way was basically to disappear! He left his small apartment, cancelled everything in his name, moved around, got jobs where he could be paid in cash – even one store in Paragon paid him in cash! – and always kept a step or two ahead of whoever might have been trying to track him down. He now runs his own little one-man business and seems to be doing OK. He, too, is travelling overseas more than I reckon is good for his bank balance – if, that is, he has a bank. At least he has managed to keep the debt collectors at bay – so far. Is there, I wonder, a statute of limitations on credit advances and general debt here?

 

As one who got his first credit card unrequested through the mail and promised I’d never use it (until I realised they can in fact be very useful, and then subsequently, essential!), I have never once failed to pay the full monthly balance on any card. No, that’s not to boast! Merely to suggest that I realised at the outset how easy it would be to let everything get out of control. So I put in place the mental tools necessary to ensure that did not happen – even when my first little company was close to bankruptcy and no one would give me loans.

 

Seeing the huge increase in credit card promotions in the last couple of years here in Thailand, I suspect that my two friends are far from alone. They may indeed be the tip of a Titanic-sized iceberg. So I wonder: what would you do if you had friends in a similar situation – friends who seem to believe that “it’ll be all right in the end?”

[Guest]

People not knowing how to use credit is a problem in many countries.

 

You would think the credit card companies would do as they do in the UK and give anyone with no credit rating a relatively small borrowing limit, until they prove themselves.

 

Ultimately, though the responsibility has to be with the individual. We all have things we "want" to do. I'd love to stop work today and travel the world, sitting at the front of the plane. However, I know it's better to live within my means.

[TotallyOz]

I got into a similar situation when I was 19 years old as well. The CC just kept coming in and it was so easy to go out and buy. I did foolish things that I later regretted. It got to the point that I was 20k in debt. Not a great deal of money but for a poor boy from Alabama, it was. I got so far that I had to ask family to bail me out. Something I had never done in my life. At that point, I gave up credit cards and stuck to debit cards. Still today, I have not lived in USA for a long time and every-time I get a package from USA, there are free credit card offers. Luckily, I have learned a great deal since then but I am 25 years older and much wiser.

 

I can see how easy it would be someone young like your friend to get into such deep debt. I wish him luck and it is good that he has you. I hope you are able to steer him in the right direction.

[Bob]

Because of the way I was raised, I have luckily only viewed a credit card as an item of convenience (and way to grab some free airline miles) and not as a method to borrow money. I use the cards all the time but the credit card companies hate me as I've never paid them any interest. And never will.

 

But, then again, largely due to how my folks raised me, I had the silly notion that you didn't buy something you couldn't afford to pay for (like right then or before the end of the month). Again, credit card companies don't like me much.

 

As to the how my long-term bf uses his credit cards, we've never had a pleasant discussion about it. Even when we make a deal that he'll start reducing the balances by "X" baht a month, he's never done it and I've finally gotten into the "give me a break and don't even tell me about it" mode.

[Guest]

I use credit cards in a similar way to Bob, never paying them interest.

 

The one other advantage is the additional consumer protection they offer. If I purchase a product or service and the UK supplier goes bust before providing it, under UK law, the credit card company must reimburse me. Very useful for sectors where companies have a habit of going bust (airlines, furniture retailers etc).

[ChristianPFC]

I know a boy from a host bar in Sunee who not long ago moved to Bangkok because he has 20000 Baht dept with someone in Sunee and can't pay it back (he borrowed the money for the funeral of a relative). So he simply fled Pattaya and stays with friends in Bangkok.

 

I met him in Bangkok, we did some sightseeing and as he was broke, I gave him 1000 Baht. He didn't know how to use buses in Bangkok, so I showed him my Bangkok bus map and told him which bus will dirctly take him to the area where he stays. But he prefered to go by taxi! A week later, he called and wanted to meet me again (because he had just 20 Baht left). Sorry, but he doesn't take my advice, I won't help him again (at least not until my next holiday in Thailand).

[Guest]

Amazing. Supposedly broke, but chooses to travel Bangkok by taxi rather than bus.

 

Also, squanders money before he's even paid off his debts.

[KhorTose]

But, then again, largely due to how my folks raised me, I had the silly notion that you didn't buy something you couldn't afford to pay for (like right then or before the end of the month). Again, credit card companies don't like me much.

 

I not only pay it off every month, but have the bank do it for me. They hate me too, but that does not stop them from raising my credit limit every year.

[Guest fountainhall]

I not only pay it off every month, but have the bank do it for me. They hate me too, but that does not stop them from raising my credit limit every year.

My cards are also paid automatically each month. But I doubt the card issuers hate you. They probably get an annual fee from you which helps their admin costs, plus 2% - 3% or so out of every purchase you make. I certainly wouldn't shed tears for them.

[Guest]

I've never paid an annual fee either.

 

About 15 years ago I wend through about 6 cards in a year. As each issuer introduced a fee, I cut the card up and sent it back. I then settled on some providers which still don't charge fees.

 

Recently I took out a Halifax credit card which has no fees and no forex loading on overseas transactions or withdrawals. I've never used it for overseas cash withdrawals. However the interest would be 1% a month, so if this was paid back within about a week, it would be one of the most competitive options for getting cash abroad.

[bkkguy]

I had the silly notion that you didn't buy something you couldn't afford to pay for (like right then or before the end of the month).

 

that rules out a house and a car for most people

 

but OK I assume you meant "you didn't buy something on credit card you couldn't afford to pay for (immediately)" but even that I think is extreme, and not the best alternative to be offering to people

 

it is like saying "don't drink alcohol" or "don't gamble" - most people manage to do some impulse buys, holidays, unexpected expenses, etc on credit card and spread it over a few months without racking up huge interest bills or going bankrupt, the same way most people drink socially or have the occasional bet without it destroying their lives and their families

 

problem gamblers, problem drinkers and problem credit abusers need help but abstinence is not the only alternative - adn don't get me started on abstinence and AIDS prevention!

 

bkkguy

[Bob]

but OK I assume you meant "you didn't buy something on credit card you couldn't afford to pay for (immediately)" but even that I think is extreme, and not the best alternative to be offering to people

 

No, I didn't mean a house or in most cases a car although it's somewhat axiomatic that you don't buy one of those you can't afford either (people in the US buying homes they couldn't afford is the main reason that the US economy is currently in the dumpster).

 

And what some people call "extreme" might be called "prudent" by others. Prior to 5-10 years ago, 98% of the people I knew (mostly via work) who had $15,000 or more of credit card debt never got out of the hole and many of them ended up in bankruptcy. In the last many years, I've known a few who've had $50,000 or more on credit cards (some using new credit cards to make the payments on the "old" credit cards!).

 

While I can understand using credit cards for emergency items, I've never understood that you go into debt (often at horrendous interest rates) just to finance a nice stereo, a pretty dress, or a lifestyle.

[Guest]

that rules out a house and a car for most people

 

Providing one avoids purchasing in the middle of a property bubble, a reasonably priced house can be a very good asset that is worth borrowing money for. The mortgage should of course be paid off early.

 

As for the car, well if you don't have the cash in the bank, buy a used model, preferably costing no more than 5 weeks salary.

[kokopelli]

Kokopelli offers his services to anyone with credit card debt. Any number of Credit Cards can testify to his experiences regarding how to use and abuse a credit card.

 

[Guest snapshot]

I agree with z909... there's a difference between putting cash into property (a hopefully appreciating asset) and consumer purchases like clothes, holidays and car.

 

Fountainhall... thanks for your insight into this issue. I didn't realise it was such an issue for middle-class Thais. How widespread do you think it is? Any advice?

 

I would LOVE for anyone to tell me how to coach someone out of credit card debt. I've had to bail family members out of credit card debt more than once and it ain't a nice experience - both for the family member or myself. There's a good $60k in sweet cash I'd have in my bank if I hadn't had to bail out family members. It's really depressing and demoralising that I'm bailing out family and relatives who are older (and supposed to be more responsible than me) financially.

 

I've always been a saver and never considered or been tempted to spend cash I didn't have so I just don't understand this mentality. But then, I also understand that my desires and needs have always remained well within my earning capacity. I realise that isn't the case for everyone and try to empathise with that.

[ChristianPFC]

Thai boys and money

 

(I was looking for a post by fountainhall about a Thai friend who disappeared after borrowing a negligable (by European standards) amount of money. Where is that post? Here a similar story.)

 

In December 2011, I met a student a few times and he asked for reasonable amounts of money (e.g. 500 THB for taxi, 500 THB for registering at the university) most times. There were problems with setting up a date (it always took several calls and confusion with time of departure and time of arrival), but he is cute and the sex was good. His English is limited, so we have to speak (and write) in Thai which is an added bonus.

 

We met a few times in December, he assured me that he does not intend to borrow a total of more than 2,000 Baht and that he would pay back in January, after receiving payment for December for his part-time job. I know that borrowed money is highly unlikely to be returned, so I consider it a gift and don’t talk about it. Over New Year’s Eve, I stay in Pattaya and in January, back in Bangkok, I call him to meet again. He does not come and two hours after our appointment I can finally reach him on the phone: he cannot come. I know that such behaviour is absolutely acceptable by Thai standards, that’s why I always have an alternative plan for the evening.

 

Before leaving Thailand, I try to call him again to say goodbye: no connection under this number. The same from Europe, so I assume he changed his phone number. All information I have is his nickname, home province, age, student at Ramkhamhaeng, camfrog profile (which doesn’t exist as I found out now), email (for facebook and MSN, but the email doesn’t work).

 

Do you think he changed phone number because he doesn’t want me to contact him any more because he cannot pay the money back? This would be especially sad as the amount is negligible, even by my standards, and I never mentioned paying back.

 

Why do boys change their phone numbers? Happens from time to time. What other information do you collect from boys for contacting them? Any similar stories about boys who interrupt contact in order to escape dept?

 

Two more stories that fit the subject.

 

In 2010, I was staying with a Thai friend (waiter in gay bar in Silom area) for a week while I was looking for accomodation for 3 months in Bangkok. Valuable insight into the lifestyle. As he works at night, he gets up about 4 pm and to bed starting from 2 am. I cannot sleep if a fan or a TV or anything else that makes noise, light or wind is on. I still fail to see the purpose of checking facebook on the mobile phone in the early morning. But back to the subject.

 

It was the begin of the month, and a few days after I moved in the electricity was cut because he didn’t pay the rent. As the bathroom had no window, we used it with candles, but for shaving I went to the elevator, because the elevator has a mirror and light. With hindsight, I think he wanted me to pay the rent. But at that time, I didn’t see any connection between my presence and the rent. Anyway, he has a Farang boyfriend who sends money, which allows him to rent a room he couldn’t afford from his job. To tell the truth, it was nicer without electricity: no TV, no fan, no aircon. After a few days, he payed the rent and asked me for 500 Baht (that’s the fee for late payment), which I gave him. Then I moved into my own room in the same building.

 

And nother story from January 2012:

 

Some boys rent rooms by the day, which is more expensive than renting by the month. Last month, I had the chance to investigate this further. On the way to my hotel, I was approached by a gay Thai who had an interest in me. He invited me to his room, which was very close to my hotel. I had no sexual interest in him, but I never miss chance to see how people live. The room was pretty small, let’s say 15 sqm, no aircon, bathroom on the floor shared with others. For this he paid 200 Baht per day, which makes about 6,000 Baht per month.

 

On leaving, my was crossed with a Farang aquaintance who lives there under the same conditions! For just 1000 Baht more he can get a serviced apartment with full furniture just around the corner!

 

A year ago, I had a room 200 meters away. My room was about 30 sqm, had aircon and a bathroom and I paid 4,000 Baht per month. So my room was larger, nicer and cheaper. But there is a hook: a deposit of 8,000 Baht was required.

 

So in conclusion, some of these boys manage to pay 200 Baht per day, but are unable to cough up a monthly rent of 4,000 Baht, leave alone a deposit of 8,000 Baht!

[pong]

Before leaving Thailand, I try to call him again to say goodbye: no connection under this number. The same from Europe, so I assume he changed his phone number. All information I have is his nickname, home province, age, student at Ramkhamhaeng, camfrog profile (which doesn’t exist as I found out now), email (for facebook and MSN, but the email doesn’t work).

 

Do you think he changed phone number because he doesn’t want me to contact him any more because he cannot pay the money back?

Why do boys change their phone numbers?

Ach mein lieber-I hope you did not post this also on any of the 3 boards-so werde ich hier nur mal antworten.

1.Yes this is very normal. Also because only very, very recently there now is the possibility to take your nr on to when you change provider for mobuy. You very well know this is not EUR/DE style and ueberreguliert hier. Plus you still have to pay for that. Fones get lost, borrowed, stolen, or brought to the moneylender (if it is a costly new style smartie) and you have no money or recourse to get a new one-with new nr.

2.RKH is by far TH's most big uni (I have to come there at least weekly this time and its soooooo far) and has well over 100.000 studnets-though at least half of them only do it by mail. It was once set up as an alternative for poor people living too far from BKK and still to get some education.

3.the daily/monthly money: yes this is also very common. For long time you need to cough up the rent-commit for at least 3 or 6 month, pay a deposit-doubtful if you ever get that back. By now you must know that living by the day (wie das auf DE heisst weiss ich nicht-we say'' from hand to mouth) is the norm-not by the week or month. But here in BKK it quite easy to find aprtmts/conmdo's like you describe for much less as 200 bt/D. My very best friend for an awful long time lived in one like that-in Huay Kwang-and paid less as 3000/.MO+electr etc. Till the whole block got emptied out and completely renovated and made modern-and he could not afford the new rent.

PS-what you now did is called thread jacking-and is considered not polite. make a new thread for a new topic-that also garantees more response and not just from people who incidentally pass by.

[KhorTose]

It is quite common and when I used to date (now married)., I knew I would nevwer get the money back for a "loan: so i would decide in advance, if I wanted to keep in contact, to tell the person I lent (gave) the money too, not to worry about paying me back---consider it a gift.

[Guest fountainhall]

(I was looking for a post by fountainhall about a Thai friend who disappeared after borrowing a negligable (by European standards) amount of money. Where is that post?)

 

Sorry, even I can't remember how long ago it was posted! But it referred to a young Thai whom I had known platonically for many months. We'd had dinner on many occasions and I'd taken him to see "Mama Mia" in Singapore.

 

Eventually he asked if he could borrow Bt. 10,000 for his mother's eye operation in Chiang Mai. He showed me some hospital papers which I assumed to be accurate. He promised to repay within a month. (Yes, I was well aware that this might be just a 'story', but I thought I knew him well enough by that stage).

 

At the end of the month, he asked to meet me for a coffee. We met at a Starbucks and his sister came with him. He said he would pay the operation funds back as soon as the insurance money had arrived. In the meantime, he and his sister were moving rooms and he needed Bt. 10,000 for the key money. That would be repaid over three months. I would not have provided it, but for the fact that his sister was there - and I assumed they were not 'doing a double act'.

 

Thereafter, phone number and later email changed. I never saw him again! KhorTose is correct - look on a loan as a gift.

[Guest joseph44]

I think it happened to most of 'us'.

Therefore, if a boy asks for a few hundred baht loan, I'll give it to him (of course not telling him that it can be considered as a gift).

As soon as they start asking thousands or ten-thousands of bahts even without knowing each other properly than I'm going in the "block-mode".

 

2 weeks ago I met a beauty. As all others, he just started in Sunnee 16 days ago.

Slept in Tony's Lido for THB 380 a night (but he had a deal on pay 20 nights and get 10 nights free) and paid per day.

Our first off was great, we both did have a good time. I paid a reasonable tip which was more than enough for 3-4 days rent, food and some clothes. This was on a Sunday.

On Monday we did have contact thru facebook and it appeared, that he had a day off.........he deserved a holiday .

On Tuesday he asked if we could meet for some dinner, so I met him after work and had a dinner. I returned him to his Lido after an hour or so and of course my question is as always: Mee tang mai? [Do you have money?] Of course, no money on hand. So I gave him some cash and again he didn't work (3rd day).

He wasn't sure about his Pattaya-future. I think that he has a Malaysian boy friend in KL and that he was planning to move up there. Anyway, he wasn't planning on a long stay in Pattaya.

 

On Wednesday we got in touch again and now he told me that he was about to quite his job in the bar. He found a new job in Jomtien (hotel) and he needed THB 400 for the room. I asked him how he was planning to survive the month without money, since the hotel would pay 1 or 2 time par months and not on a daily basis. No answer.

I offered him to take him home to Hua Hin, where he could be at home with his family and make up his plan. After a few weeks he could come back to Pattaya, Bang Saen or move up to KL to his boy friend. .......... up2him. Again no answer. So I stepped from this one, since I'm not going to sponsor some guy without a plan. I did for the last 6 years, and that was enough.

 

Anyway, the last news is that he left Pattaya for Hua Hin yesterday and would probably be back for a party next week.

 

Thai boys and money.

 

About the debts on credit cards: I do have a Thai credit card and every 3 months I receive a statement of my "behavior" and that the rating will be sent to some kind of Debt-registration-office. If this system is used properly, then it should be impossible to have more debt-possibilities than one can ever re-pay.

[Guest anonone]

Interesting topic. Using credit is a life-skill, much like investing, budgeting, et al. Like many others, I was very bad with credit while young, ending up with more debt than reasonable. Of course, I learned from that and now I never carry a balance.

 

I admittedly do not have much exposure to Thais aged 30 and up, but for the young Thai guys their behavior with money is much like mine at that age. No thought given to the future. Immediate gratification with purchases. Impatience. And note: I was not exactly eager to hear advice on such issues from more mature folks.

 

There are exceptions of course. But in broad generalizations, teenagers are teenagers regardless of the country they happen to reside.