Guest Hedda Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 It's what Khun PT Barnum allegedly once said: "There's a jai dee born every minute." You will note that I used the term "allegedly", since, as a wannabe Jai dee person myself, I always thought that both PT Barnum and PT mauRICE tended to be a bit too cynical at times. PT may not have said it originally, but then Marie Antoinette never told them to eat cake either. It's perception that counts and so it made far more sense to attribute it to PT. Little did I suspect that it would trigger the goody-goody crowd into rushing to the defense of the Siamese hooker. On further reflection, after reading more of this thread, I am inclined to believe that mauRICE may be understating the case, at least as he's applied the PT rule to farangs in Thailand. What is it about old white men in Thailand that makes them so gullible when it comes to affairs of the heart or groin ? I've tried, but the Thai guys I know tell me there are no Thai words for "gullible farang" - other than "jai dee" delivered with that certain tone and smile that only another Thai can recognize. .
TotallyOz Posted October 28, 2006 Author Posted October 28, 2006 Time for gaybutton to step in and play moderator and show us he still has his balls and is not playing favorites as this whole thread is wacko and GT is not playing his proper role as a moderator and is overreacting and losing the plot.. Maybe everyone is having a bad day but the recent tone on this forum is not encouraging and methinks it is time for this cat to take a powder and and return to the relative cleaniness of my swamp.. But will GB act or play it like a pussy and I don't mean a cat?.. My role is not just moderator but also a poster. I enjoy posting on the boards and I have read and reread this thread and see nothing that GayButton should have major issues with. Perhaps Marrice and I had a few words but they didn't get out of hand. We both moved on from them. As a matter of fact, I invited him for a movie night. I have never seen GB act like a pussy. Quite the opposite. He is always on top of things and does a great job at moderating the site. On the other hand, you and LMTU get into one pissing contest after another. When it goes to far for you, you request it be deleted. How about this? Why don't you just stop posting about him totally and he will do the same. That will make the moderators job on both sites much easier. You seem to enjoy calling him names that are inappropriate. He does the same to you. I really don't see how you can ask in one paragraph to have something deleted that you started in the first place. I know the 2 of you will never be friends. I could care less. However, to solve the problem on this site, I will from now on delete any referece you make toward him and he toward you, no matter how sly or witty or under the table it may be. What created this build up of bile and bitterness, one wonders? I think it is the buildup of traffic in Bangkok and Pattaya brought on by the start of high season. I have noticed many more cars and much more traffic. The fumes get to me. Perhaps I need to wear a mask when I drive my scooter? What is it about old white men in Thailand that makes them so gullible when it comes to affairs of the heart or groin ? I think PeterUK and WowPow summed it up quite nicely. This is really paradise. No place on earth like it. Why am I so gullible? The eyes. The smooth skin. The sweet spirit. The good intentions. Mix all of that with someone who I think enjoys my company, and I get gullible very easily.
Guest PeterUK Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 I'm not sure why some posters, notably Maurice and Hedda, insist on using the term 'jai dii' as one of barely disguised contempt. Do they propose that it would be better to be unkind and mean? In Thai culture the term carries no negative connotations of being 'gullible' or excessively kind and generous just to please others; it implies wisdom, not foolishness. There is another Thai term 'jai awn' which means softhearted to the point of always yielding to others and that does have negative connotations. When Thais refer to farangs as 'jai dii' with 'that certain tone and smile' they are undoubtedly thinking that the farangs are really 'jai awn'. We should all aspire to be jai dii in the best sense of the term. It will produce respect from Thais and derision only from dyed-in-the-wool cynics who yearn for others to join them in their barren landscape of the heart.
Gaybutton Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 Time for gaybutton to step in and play moderator and show us he still has his balls and is not playing favorites . . . Now, you wouldn't be trying to place me between a rock and a hard place, would you? I think most people know I have no favorites. I don't operate that way. It's either I delete the posts you think are inappropriate or I'm a pussy? Those are the only options? I hope you won't be too upset if I make my own decisions. So far, the only post I found it necessary to delete on this thread was a post that simply said "Please delete."
Guest Hedda Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 It will produce respect from Thais and derision only from dyed-in-the-wool cynics who yearn for others to join them in their barren landscape of the heart. Interesing reading, Peter . . . until you couldn't resist throwing in that last bit of melodrama about the "barren landscape of the heart." It's been raining much too much here in green Pattaya to be using that kind of metaphor. Seriously, I happen to think that the best way to stay happy and content living in Thailand is to treat that "jai dee" talk the same way you would treat a cordial "good morning" or "hi, handsome man." For too many Thais that we farangs are likely to meet in places like Pattaya, "jai dee" means "good tipper" and nothing else. It's the farangs who start taking such compliments seriously who may be headed for a rude awakening. I hope that I am not yet old and lonely enough to grasp at such straws as a substitute for finding true friends that I don't have to keep buying every day with big tips. .
Guest pete1969 Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 Frankly, I do think jai dee is often used among bar boys to mean someone is a good tipper. However, I do think one can be a good tipper and still not be considered jai dee. Yet, for the most part, in bar lexicon a jai dee farang is mostly one who tips well. I do wonder what besides money makes a person jai dee. Once a Thai person knows you over the long term, I would hope more than money enters the equation. For my part, I'd rather be considered jai dee than not; however, it is not a distinction I care to buy my way into with every Thai person I meet. Pete Oh, and I do agree that keeping a boy for four hours and treating him roughly is worth more than 500 baht, even in Pattaya. I'm sure it was a learning experience for the boy.
Guest mauRICE Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 ...barren landscape of the heart. Ahhh...Pattaya's national anthem. It hasn't been suggested that the idiom ''jai dii" is intrinsically derogatory. The issue here is pragmatics, not semantics. As I understand it, the term "jai dii" is parochial in its usage and I rarely hear it being used by mainstream Thais, at least not those in my age-social group. Among Thai boys, it is often used to describe someone who generously parts with his money for little in return. Similarly, the term 'jai yen' in boy parlance is often equated with a farang who does as he is told and doesn't ask too many questions, as opposed to equanimity in the face of adversity. It hasn't been suggested that we shouldn't be fair to the boys or generous even, if circumstances merit it. However, using the term 'jai dii, as a salve to one's guilt or to put down others who think with their brains instead of their dicks, doesn't take away the fact that one is a purchaser of prostitutes, doesn't take away the fact that one is an exploiter of those with lesser means, and in most cases, it doesn't take away the fact that one is thirty years older. You don't make yourself look good by trying to make others look bad on an anonymous Internet forum like this, and abusing and corrupting the term 'jai dii' in the process. Self-righteous farang who have reduced themselves to 'baby talk' after enconscing themselves among the virtuous boys of Pattaya, may feel they have the right to pontificate on how we should deal with prostitutes and the like. Indeed, having spent so much time under the Jomtien sun which they have mistaken for the Bo tree, they must be privy to some spiritual revelation (or is it divine insemination) that we lesser mortals haven't been blessed with. O wise ones, by all means lead us to the path of enlightenment - but please, get out of Pattaya first.
Guest catawampuscat Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 I am pleased the offensive remarks were deleted by whomever and now find nothing objectionable.. This is not my site and I respect management's right to run the forum as they see fit.. I have had my posts made invisibile before or deleted and that is up to the owners.. enough said....
fedssocr Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 Wow. I thought I was cynical until I read some of the posts in this thread. Maybe things are a little different for those of you who live there. But maybe not. I agree that 500 baht is too little period. Whether the guy was giving up his virginity or not is immaterial as far as I am concerned. That being said though, to me, I think that what the boys expect and what's "fair" to them is one part of the equation. The other part is how much are there services worth to each of us. If I can afford to pay them 1000 baht and it is worth that much to me then I will pay that much without hesitation or worrying that I am paying too much. If I decide to pay double that for some reason, so what. If being generous is part of what makes me feel good about the transaction then I will do it. Does that make me a "sucker"? Maybe it does, but I really don't care if that's what other people think.As long as the boy thinks he is being treated fairly and I am having a good time I don't know that much else matters. Now on the flip side if taking some boy's virginity, or taking a boy, period, is only worth 500 baht to some one then that's a shame I think for everyone involved. Unfortunately it goes with the territory in this line of work. I suspect word gets around fairly quickly. I would imagine that "what the boys think of us" probably has about as many different answers as what we think of the boys. If I were to garner some sort of reputation as being a money machine I would certainly prefer that to a reputation as being some cheapskate farang who treats boys like crap. But I don't expect I will ever get any sort of reputation at all. I waver back and forth between feeling bad that these guys have to do this and thinking that they could make other choices instead. While I was in Pattaya I met a boy in Funny Boys who I liked very much. We went back to my place for a short time. He spoke English quite well and was very sweet. I don't think he had been in town very long and I asked him if he liked Pattaya and he frowned at me and said no. And the feeling I had was that he didn't think he had any options. I like to think that I have been in enough strip clubs and been with enough working boys to have developed a pretty good ability to read people in this line of work and I really felt for this guy.
Guest mauRICE Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 The other part is how much are there services worth to each of us. If I can afford to pay them 1000 baht and it is worth that much to me then I will pay that much without hesitation or worrying that I am paying too much. If I decide to pay double that for some reason, so what. If being generous is part of what makes me feel good about the transaction then I will do it. Does that make me a "sucker"? No, it makes you a capitalist, neither deserving of laurels nor brickbats. It is essentially a private transaction between a buyer and a seller with a bonus thrown in. If neither party was under any duress to enter into the transaction, then really, it is nobody else's business but yours.
Guest PeterUK Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 . . . until you couldn't resist throwing in that last bit of melodrama about the "barren landscape of the heart." . It could have done with a bit of landscape gardening, I agree.
Guest mauRICE Posted October 28, 2006 Posted October 28, 2006 I waver back and forth between feeling bad that these guys have to do this and thinking that they could make other choices instead...I like to think that I have been in enough strip clubs and been with enough working boys to have developed a pretty good ability to read people in this line of work and I really felt for this guy. An understandable feeling, one which all of us must have experienced at one point or another. But what should we do then? Having "felt' for a guy who sells his body for a living, do we then go ahead and feel him up, thus assuaging our guilt or whatever honourable emotion we fancied ourselves as having? Is the problem solved by leaving him a big tip and telling the whole Internet world about it? What is the problem? Is it poor tipping or prostitution itself? If it is the former, then how would a big tip cure the ills associated with prostitution such as greed, disease and disillusionment? Does a big tip make it any less exploitative or does it encourage more boys to enter the trade? If prostitution is seen as the problem, is it solved by bragging about how jai dii we are and pontificating to others as to how jai dii they should be while we continue to create demand for cheap flesh in pristine Pattaya? It is only too easy to preach from a virtual pulpit while sipping mint juleps under a magnolia tree, or coconut palm, as the case may be. I can't even begin to pretend that I have the answers but, if I were seeking a compromise, my guess would be to look at the root causes of prostitution. And since 90% of the commercial sex industry in Thailand is directed towards local consumption, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that the onus is on the Thais themselves to solve the problem, that is if they even want to. One thing I know for sure: one can't put on a saffron robe with one hand while sniffing a boy's white undies with the other.
Guest Hedda Posted October 29, 2006 Posted October 29, 2006 "I love the "boys" (young men) in Thailand as much as they love me. " If that's the case, then there's precious little love lost there, dear. I'm not sure if you copied your homily from some chapter in "The Happy Hooker" or whether you really are Xaviera Hollander using a nom de plume to cut and paste every banal comment ever made about the glories of Siamese prostitution. Frankly, There's nothing quite like knowing everything there is to know about 60 million people . . . after one visit as a sex tourist.
Guest PeterUK Posted October 29, 2006 Posted October 29, 2006 I can't even begin to pretend that I have the answers Don't be faux naif, Maurice, it doesn't suit you. Of course you know the answer as far as you personally are concerned, just as I do. When one sees clearly the exploitative nature of prostitution and yet continues to use the services of prostitutes, something quite inescapable happens inside one. One becomes enmeshed in self-hatred, and the fruits of that are only bitter. It can give one a tendency to be self-righteous and preachy (yes, I hold up my hand!) or, of course, it can make one lash out with all the rarefied powers of invective at one's disposal at others whom one perceives to be deluding themselves. There are other fruits as well, but the above will suffice for present purposes. So what is the answer? We both know that just being as kind and fair as possible to the prostitutes we associate with (probably most people's guilt-salving measure) doesn't cut it - no more than a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. The answer is to stop using the services of prostitutes altogether. Then the world and its prostitution problem can take care of itself. Will you be first to rush to the head of the queue, or shall I? Or shall we both console ourselves a little longer with the words of St Augustine, 'Please Lord, make me pure, but not yet.'
TotallyOz Posted October 29, 2006 Author Posted October 29, 2006 If that's the case, then there's precious little love lost there, dear. I think the word love is not meant the same way and we use it for a life long relationship. I think it is more a sense of multifaceted feeling and younger people use it much more than us old farts. Having brought more than a few 1st world hookers here for a visit, there is not one of them that would disagree with the young man's statements about the 2 types of clients here or how wonderful the people in Thailand are. Hell, that is why we all visit here. They are the sweetest people on earth IMHO. I don't think there is much that most escorts from other places that visit here would disagree with in his assertion. Just because you and I tend to look at the world through a microscope, analyzing each action lets not let those that still have the innocence to look at the world in rose-colored glasses. It makes the world so much more picturesque.
Guest mauRICE Posted October 29, 2006 Posted October 29, 2006 Goodness, love is in the air. I wonder who the lucky barboy is. Over the years, I've seen posters and people I've personally known who wax and wane on this issue depending on whether they've got a sweetheart on a monthly retainer by their side. As a fellow poster or friend, I can only share my thoughts or lend a shoulder to cry on as my friends switch back and forth from customer to boyfriend, lover to ATM or cab driver to saviour. I've never found the commercial sex scene or indeed Thailand as a whole difficult to navigate. I don't even have any personal rules that I go by. Other than common sense, an infectious smile, a naturally equable disposition, a healthy wallet and a lot of effort put into learning the language, Thailand has been as easy and congenial as any other country I've visited and lived in. When people are nice to me, I am nice to them. When they are not, I walk away. It's like going to a Thai market early in the morning. Some vendors are jovial, some are dour, some are fond of me and give me more mango for the same price and I in return will pay them extra even though I know they are not expecting it. Then I go home, always with a smile. Wait a minute. On reaching home, I discover that some of the mangoes are rotten. Do I then ring up the Bangkok Post to complain about the 'dishonest' vendor? Do I page the society columnist to trumpet my altruism for paying more than I should have to the mango lady? No, because it is all part and parcel of going to a Thai market, or indeed any market. Will I still buy mangoes from the same lady? Probably yes, unless she keeps selling me rotten mangoes in which case I will simply move on to the next vendor. Easy as pie ~ "no think too much" (sic). But what if I keep finding rotten mangoes? Well first it will force me to stop and think about the state of mango cultivation in Thailand. Are too much chemical fertilisers being used causing the ripened fruit to swell in all the wrong places, are they being harvested way too early for the Sunnee fresh produce market, or are they getting bruised and pockmarked from too much handling? Gosh, what am I to do? Should I quietly keep trying and bravely take my chances until I find the perfect mango? There's a certain nobility to that. Should I huff and puff about the terrible state of mango farming in Thailand on Internet forums such as this? Or I should I start overpaying in the hope that I would raise the standard of mango cultivation and tell the whole world what a good person I am? The last is certainly a risky option given that I have no control over middlemen and mango growers in Thailand. I know what I would do. I'd cultivate my own mangoes under conditions that are germaine to both me and the mango breed. I'm acutely aware that the best and juiciest mango variety which requires the most attention may not grow well on my already exhausted land, unless of course, I'm willing to pay and pay and pay to create certain artificial conditions to sustain it. It could work, provided my money tree doesn't die off and I'm willing to turn the other cheek when my young mango seedling decides to cross-breed with other juicy varieties. Hell, I might even get a whole orchard of virgin mango trees at the end of it of which I will have the honour of paying and paying and paying for to keep alive. No. I'd rather find a variety that is a lot more resilient and compatible with my land. One that would not suck up every single bit of nutrient from the already ageing soil. One that I could nurture with love and tenderness and wouldn't take too long to mature. It may not produce the best and most beautiful mangoes but I'm assured the harvest will be consistent even when I can't prop it up with the most expensive fertilisers. Then I will stop belabouring the quality of mangoes in the market or sanctimoniously telling others how much I should pay for them when everyone knows that farang don't determine the prices anyway. But that's just me and my hypothetical situation. Of course, grabbing it from the shelf is a lot more convenient, a common act consumption that is neither heroic nor depraved. Hence I am a little surprised by the reaction of my friends to this whole business. Part reality TV, part Oprahesque confessional, most of it fairy tale theatre but at the end of the day Pattaya is still one huge entertainment multiplex. You still have to buy a ticket to get in. It's like going on a long ride with a jai dii cab driver. You may think you have found your saviour in the nightmare of Thai public transportation, but please make sure he's turned on the meter as rides in Pattaya can turn out to be a lot more expensive than you expected.
Guest Aunty Posted October 29, 2006 Posted October 29, 2006 The best way to 'fix' the Thai prostitution problem as it has been rather perversely and judgmentally referred to above, is to legalise it. Prostitution is indeed an honourable profession requiring considerable people and physical skill on behalf of the sex-worker if the job is to be done well. At its core, sex-work is about communication, the purchase of a fundamental aspect of humanity that cannot be done alone
Guest punlman Posted October 29, 2006 Posted October 29, 2006 The best way to 'fix' the Thai prostitution problem as it been rather perversely and judgmentally referred to above, is to legalise it. As a sex-worker myself.... AND as a patron of the boys of Pattaya.... I couldn't agree more. Although, the regulation should be minimal.... Otherwise, too much regulation and taxation and the government becomes the opressor. The British have it right! In England it is so legal, and so orderly (It's completely legal but only behind closed doors, not on the street)... that MOST people don't even KNOW it's legal in England! Yet, sex-workers there are not harassed for monthly "license fees and taxes" the way they are in Amsterdam & the Netherlands... That's the way it should be!
Guest Aunty Posted October 29, 2006 Posted October 29, 2006 As a sex-worker myself.... AND as a patron of the boys of Pattaya.... I couldn't agree more. Although, the regulation should be minimal.... Otherwise, too much regulation and taxation and the government becomes the opressor. The British have it right! In England it is so legal, and so orderly (It's completely legal but only behind closed doors, not on the street)... that MOST people don't even KNOW it's legal in England! Yet, sex-workers there are not harassed for monthly "license fees and taxes" the way they are in Amsterdam & the Netherlands... That's the way it should be! In the country where I come from (not England nor the UK) it's legal as well, including gay prostitution. But here sex-workers have to pay tax on their earnings just like the rest of us!
Guest mauRICE Posted October 29, 2006 Posted October 29, 2006 At its core, sex-work is about communication, the purchase of a fundamental aspect of humanity that cannot be done alone
Guest Hedda Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 What does it say about you and the community within which you live that you have a need to use the services of a sex-worker, more so if you are flying halfway around the world to Thailand to do so? It says that you are probably over 50 and, having become as sexually invisible in your home country as Claude Raines was in the movie, you are doing the only logical thing that men with a lust for life do: uproot your banal existence and find a place where sexual fun can still be had at a reasonable price. Perhaps you would rather stay home in the condo, listening to the elevator doors close down the hall, walking the dog and drinking your way through dinners and porn movies, as you wait patiently for the iceman to come. When I go, I'm going like Elsie, thank you. Thank God for Pattaya.
Guest letmetellu Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 quote from GayThailand:- "If you ever wonder why the guys are so distrusting of farangs, this is just one instance. When I saw him the next night I took him as well. He had a much easier night with me as I was only looking for a massage and a little oral end of quote If a guy is putting himself in the situation he is working as a sex worker knowing that he has to have sex with a man no matter if he is made to accept a guys portion inside of him or asked to do oral, I don't think its about when it is its how its done the first day or a month later or how much he gets. Also I know farangs 3 in particular who live in Paradise Inn who could afford to buy the Hotel, who refuse to pay any more then 500 baht as a matter of fact, use to say to me don't I realise Im putting the market price up because I have never paid less then 1000 baht, little do they know in the 70s and 80s it was 200 baht and have paid some 10,000 baht for varoisous resasons as many who knew me in my hay day can prove, but some only pay 500 that in the low season. I know talking to many young guys when they have gotten use to the initial pain of accepting a portion they would never want to suck some fat old mans dick in a million years, or kiss them unless they have to, and I'm talking about mine not yours,s as I'm sure your is squeaky clean and tasty but Alpha males hate to suck, but don't mind anal when they get use to it, there again there are those who love it all. Those who pay big bucks in Pattaya 1600 and above, pay for many reasons some its because they can just afford and they are just generous, similar or a bit less in there country, some to say dont you think Im a nice kind guy, some to impress there friends and themself on how well healed they are, so many reasons.
Guest punlman Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 Those who pay big bucks in Pattaya 1600 and above, pay for many reasons some its because they can just afford and they are just generous, similar or a bit less in there country, some to say dont you think Im a nice kind guy, some to impress there friends and themself on how well healed they are, so many reasons. As I said, the only reason I do is... that I view their "tip" as a "love offering" --- a donation to their well-being.... and a symbil of hope for a better life in the future. ....that is given in a spirit of Love. Not abuse. It's certainly not to impress anyone, since I wouldn't normally tell anyone how much I give... And I think I'll rarely ever see the same boy twice. I'm tremendously grateful to God that I am able to be generous.... in both LOVE and money...
Guest fountainhall Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 This is just a thought (and apologies if it has come up before). Surely it would be fairer on the boys if there was a minimum tip for the go go bars - as exists in some massage establishments? I know that the 'tip' is supposed to be based on service, but with some farangs clearly abusing the system, a minimum would ensure the boy earned a decent amount. A smaller extra tip could then be added on the basis of 'satisfaction'.
Guest Hedda Posted October 30, 2006 Posted October 30, 2006 but with some farangs clearly abusing the system what about the gogo boys who are doing the same thing from their end of the deal ? I have no way of quantifying this, but I would guess from the comments I hear among farangs, that for every farang who "abuses" the system by giving a lousy tip, there are 10 gogo guys who try to cheat the system by not making an honest effort to satisfy their paying customers. The "I don't do that" crowd is as equally guilty of abusing the system as the worst tippers among the johns. Too many Thai guys working the bars today are trying to get by with as little action as possible. They stopped dancing in the bars years ago and some of them would like to stop doing all sorts of things in bed too, if they think they can get away with it. It's human nature. If a guy thinks he's gonna get an automatice 1000 Baht no matter how good his performance, he's got no incentive to try to please. That's the other side of the "jai dee" coin.
