Hardship stories

[reader]

Since I post frequently on your everyday massage shops around Bangkok, I’ll describe a very recent disappointing experience. A few weeks ago I was approached by a guy outside a shop on upper Silom Rd. I agreed to a one-hour message. Before beginning, he asked “how much you give me? and I replied 1200. He smiled and we had a satisfactory time. Before leaving we exchanged LINE and I told him I could see him one more time before I returned home.

Sent him Message to say I would see him a few days ago and he said he just had 28th birthday. I took him at his word and when he asked me same question on how much I give him I said 1200 plus 300 for your birthday. He agreed but 15 minutes into massage he stopped and wrote message on phone: “Why you give me so little?” I sat up, got off table and told him, “massage is over. If 1500 baht not enough for 60 minutes, I give you 1,000 for just 15 minutes.”

He tried walking back what he said but the moment had passed. in my book, there’s no quicker way to ruin a massage than trying to renegotiate (aka, haggle) once the session begins. 

To be fair, this was first time this happened in a few trips. Every masseur has the right to negotiate tip before session and I have same. But once we agree, that’s end of it. Fortunately just about every guy understands this. Experience cost me 550 shop fee and 1,000 baht. He lost what could have been regular customer to simple greed. 

[floridarob]

9 hours ago, Moses said:

What about guide? Keith thinks what he wrote me something, but I got zero, so have no comments.

If you are interested in learning about Best's personal life, I have no comment either - that's what the word "private" is for.

Obviously he did, as I believe him a million % vs you at about 10%.... Not sure if Russia business models care about customer service or perception of customer service, however you should be concerned because the introduction of the 2 were via your business and also because if he is a worker or contractor for you, such request for help should've been to you first, not a customer, no?

Your reply means you don't have me on ignore anyway and you are just flat out afraid to post anything in a public forum about Putin, what a sad life that must be to be silenced/muffled by fear.

Don't try to mix words or justify why you can't say anything negative, because we all know and it's pure fear....the US supporting Trump is cultish at this point, he's working on putting the same measures in place as Orban, Putin and friends to change that to fear. He already has put fear into some that they'll be coming after them, but that's just the 1st step, we'll see how far he gets, because I think the Americans have more balls than you do.

[Olddaddy]

34 minutes ago, reader said:

Since I post frequently on your everyday massage shops around Bangkok, I’ll describe a very recent disappointing experience. A few weeks ago I was approached by a guy outside a shop on upper Silom Rd. I agreed to a one-hour message. Before beginning, he asked “how much you give me? and I replied 1200. He smiled and we had a satisfactory time. Before leaving we exchanged LINE and I told him I could see him one more time before I returned home.

Sent him Message to say I would see him a few days ago and he said he just had 28th birthday. I took him at his word and when he asked me same question on how much I give him I said 1200 plus 300 for your birthday. He agreed but 15 minutes into massage he stopped and wrote message on phone: “Why you give me so little?” I sat up, got off table and told him, “massage is over. If 1500 baht not enough for 60 minutes, I give you 1,000 for just 15 minutes.”

He tried walking back what he said but the moment had passed. in my book, there’s no quicker way to ruin a massage than trying to renegotiate (aka, haggle) once the session begins. 

To be fair, this was first time this happened in a few trips. Every masseur has the right to negotiate tip before session and I have same. But once we agree, that’s end of it. Fortunately just about every guy understands this. Experience cost me 550 shop fee and 1,000 baht. He lost what could have been regular customer to simple greed. 

He sounds very ungrateful but he thought you were a "turnover "  and you would feel guilty and say oh I'm sorry I will give you more !

He had probably done it before and succeeded 

You did the right thing.👍

Did the massage shop ask you on the way out what happened?

Guilt tripping is used a lot in Thailand business psychology 

I had a bar in Pattaya (nameless) that used this on me last time ,the owner on seeing I gave a 20 baht tip ,the drink was 180 baht for this   bar) started to tell me the waiter hasnt had many customers,  he had rent to pay etc ,like it what my fault  😳😳😳"I'm sorry to hear that I said

Maybe if you charge 100 baht for a drink like every other bar instead of 180 you could give it to the waiter I said

,I mean all he did was bring me a drink 🍻 20 baht is not sufficient?

[reader]

1 minute ago, Olddaddy said:

Did the massage shop ask you on the way out what happened?😳

No, but I gave guy his tip in presence of manager who speaks English. 

[Olddaddy]

4 minutes ago, reader said:

No, but I gave guy his tip in presence of manager who speaks English. 

As long as they knew , I mean they should realise it's 15 minutes into the massage 

[spoon]

31 minutes ago, reader said:

I give you 1,000 for just 15 minutes.

Thats mighty generous of you. Equivalent to 4k baht for 60min.

[Olddaddy]

4 minutes ago, spoon said:

Thats mighty generous of you. Equivalent to 4k baht for 60min.

I think better to pay though and walk out that way there is no conflict 💙💛

Although Reader didn't pay the full  1500 , the boys loss 

[reader]

1 minute ago, spoon said:

Thats mighty generous of you. Equivalent to 4k baht for 60min.

I genuinely liked the guy and message I wanted to send was “you just lost good customer because of greed”.

[Olddaddy]

Greed is something I see a lot in South East Asian countries 

Even by farang business owners and not just Thai 

They don't seem to know the repeat customer model 

Many a bar or business even owned by farang I have walked past and never gone back 

That could be by overcharging eg a Go Go bar 🍺 that pads a bill or adds drinks that you never had or high price sitting outside 

Or waiters in bar or restaurant that asks for tips BEFORE they serve you ,that is annoying 🤬

I had this at a fish & chip shop the first thing she said without even taking my order was " you give me big tip ok " 

With that I put the menu down ,the farang owner standing nearby looked at me😳

I looked back in his eyes ,👀 I said to him in front of the waitress 

"At least try to Kiss 💋 me before you Rape me ! 😩

With that I walked out 🚶‍♂️🚶‍♂️

 

 

[floridarob]

9 minutes ago, reader said:

message I wanted to send was “you just lost good customer because of greed”.

wonder if message was "received"....something tells me no.

[reader]

I repeated it in message I translated to Thai on LiNE after I left shop. Whether “received” up for debate.

[bkkmfj2648]

36 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

Greed is something I see a lot in South East Asian countries 

Even by farang business owners and not just Thai 

Now after living here for 2 years and 4 months now - I sense this attitude is "entitlement" driven.

There is this ever present entitlement attitude that they are entitled to try to rip you off - either financially or to psychologically torture you if you refrain from playing their "give me money" entitlement game.

These include:

- ugly stares as you walk through the complex,

- silent treatment where they even get their friends and bar worker colleagues to participate,

- no more friendly behaviour towards you.

 

Here in this forum, we often note the negativity of the expats who live here full time.  Now after 2 years, I am starting to understand how this daily psychological warfare slowly grinds on you and before you know it, you start transforming into a grumpy negative person.

What I do not understand is HOW did it come about that the workers here adopt this greedy entitlement behaviour?

Is it part of their indoctrination when they move from their home towns to Pattaya?

When I travel around Thailand (outside of Bangkok, Pattaya, and Phuket) I do not feel this greedy entitlement behaviour.

Thoughts? 🤔

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, Olddaddy said:

 

,I mean all he did was bring me a drink 🍻 20 baht is not sufficient?

definitely it is enough and it's what I tip waiters in  bars who bring me drinks and also in restaurants if bill is 300 or less

[vinapu]

37 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

or to psychologically torture you if you refrain from playing their "give me money" entitlement game.

These include:

- ugly stares as you walk through the complex,

- silent treatment where they even get their friends and bar worker colleagues to participate,

- no more friendly behaviour towards you.

 

in such circumstances  I'd say  enjoy while it lasts. You don't play their game , ignore their behavior , nice guys abound

[spoon]

I believe the mindset is only obvious is tourist area. Majority of their businesses will be tourists who also behave similarly, i.e trying to bargain down the price as much as possible.

Most of the tourists comes to thailand once or twice in their lifetime so they will not see you again, thus it might be his only chance to make more money of you by ripping you off and never see you again. 

Once they are able to see you are a returning tourists, aka goes there 1-2 a year at least, then its a different story. A totally different story if they know you are living in thailand i supposed, but i have no personal experience on this. Anyway, due to this particular reason, if the guy is someone i really like, which is very few, i will give a second try and almost always the second one is much better. 

[bkkmfj2648]

8 minutes ago, vinapu said:

in such circumstances  I'd say  enjoy while it lasts. You don't play their game , ignore their behavior , nice guy abound

Easier said than done.

As a visiting  tourist - it's easy = it ends when you get on the airplane to go home.

As a full time resident, it can get lonely and depressing very quickly - as you find your self starting over from zero and with each iteration it becomes more difficult because you are a known person very quickly, especially during the low season.

So, when @Olddaddy wrote that very depressing forum post in June or July of 2022, I could not understand what our Olddaddy was trying to say when Olddady asked,

 

what do all of the retirees do all day when they are sitting on their balconies staring out into the sea.

well, now I can say, I contemplate where I want to go in the complex using a route to avoid the most negative stares and discomfort.

unfortunately, the complex only has so many strategic entrances and exits - even when using the upper floor overpasses.

[vinapu]

10 minutes ago, spoon said:

I believe the mindset is only obvious is tourist area. Majority of their businesses will be tourists who also behave similarly, i.e trying to bargain down the price as much as possible.

...........

, if the guy is someone i really like, which is very few, i will give a second try and almost always the second one is much better. 

You are right , often in many countries I observed tourists haggling over very trivial amounts

( in Silom for 10 baht on 150 baht underwear, just last month as an example  )which obviously must have upset locals.

........................

I'm also believer in 2nd chances but on case like starting bargaining over already fixed amount mid way through the session  the I'd take reader's approach and remove guy from  hiring list for good.

[vinapu]

8 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Easier said than done.

As a visiting  tourist - it's easy = it ends when you get on the airplane to go home.

As a full time resident, it can get lonely and depressing very quickly - as you find your self starting over from zero and with each iteration it becomes more difficult because you are a known person very quickly, especially during the low season.

So, when @Olddaddy wrote that very depressing forum post in June or July of 2022, I could not understand what our Olddaddy was trying to say when Olddady asked,

 

what do all of the retirees do all day when they are sitting on their balconies staring out into the sea.

well, now I can say, I contemplate where I want to go in the complex using a route to avoid the most negative stares and discomfort.

unfortunately, the complex only has so many strategic entrances and exits - even when using the upper floor overpasses.

I stand corrected

[floridarob]

48 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Is it part of their indoctrination when they move from their home towns to Pattaya?

When I travel around Thailand (outside of Bangkok, Pattaya, and Phuket) I do not feel this greedy entitlement behaviour.

Thoughts?

It comes from the "spoils" they've received from other Farangs and the "generous" tips and gifts they get from them, thus raising their perceived worth. Then when you or someone pays them market value, 1200 in pattaya 2000 MAXIMUM in BKK, in my experience and eyes....they get upset/angry/hateful.

This is what I believe and have preached for 25 yrs as it was preached by the ones that came before me. I see it to some extent in Brazil, although not very much. 

Again, @gayinpattaya said these guys do pretty well overall in their country, to which I agree. I've said these guys do pretty well, in their country. Yet many customers throw money at them for not completing their "acts", not showing up, showing up late, falling asleep, etc..... building a generation that thinks they don't have to do much, yet get paid.... how many hours do they "work", not sitting around on their phones, actual work? How many hours do the construction guys work and difficult work and how much do they get paid?

It wasn't like this 25 yrs ago, but the popularity of Thailand wasn't was like it is today and neither were the prices. They talk amongst their friends/co-workers and I'm sure stories get embellished and then they each try to make their scores with their client list, just like a politician doesn't ask for donations from 1 person, neither do these guys.

This is a generalization...and it really applies to a large percentage of guys in this trade, there are always the diamond in the rough or the true good guys out there..... the trick is finding him and not turning him into another one of "them" by spoiling him by throwing money at him, even if you have to pay his rent 😉 

[Olddaddy]

51 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Easier said than done.

As a visiting  tourist - it's easy = it ends when you get on the airplane to go home.

As a full time resident, it can get lonely and depressing very quickly - as you find your self starting over from zero and with each iteration it becomes more difficult because you are a known person very quickly, especially during the low season.

So, when @Olddaddy wrote that very depressing forum post in June or July of 2022, I could not understand what our Olddaddy was trying to say when Olddady asked,

 

what do all of the retirees do all day when they are sitting on their balconies staring out into the sea.

well, now I can say, I contemplate where I want to go in the complex using a route to avoid the most negative stares and discomfort.

unfortunately, the complex only has so many strategic entrances and exits - even when using the upper floor overpasses.

I like that laneway opposite Cocka2 bar ,although you can get attached by the cats 🐱🐈and smells of cat 💩

[reader]

2 hours ago, spoon said:

I believe the mindset is only obvious is tourist area. Majority of their businesses will be tourists who also behave similarly, i.e trying to bargain down the price as much as possible.

Most of the tourists comes to thailand once or twice in their lifetime so they will not see you again, thus it might be his only chance to make more money of you by ripping you off and never see you again. 

Once they are able to see you are a returning tourists, aka goes there 1-2 a year at least, then its a different story. A totally different story if they know you are living in thailand i supposed, but i have no personal experience on this. Anyway, due to this particular reason, if the guy is someone i really like, which is very few, i will give a second try and almost always the second one is much better. 

If it had been an unsatisfactory or otherwise disappointing massage, I would—and routinely do—give guy second chance. But not in face of sheer greed. This guy knew from previous session I was a fair tipper and sent several messages, asking me when I was coming back.

[Olddaddy]

1 hour ago, reader said:

If it had been an unsatisfactory or otherwise disappointing massage, I would—and routinely do—give guy second chance. But not in face of sheer greed. This guy knew from previous session I was a fair tipper and sent several messages, asking me when I was coming back.

He tried it on you ,maybe you come across as too nice🙂,or too "interested" in him ,is that the word I'm looking for? 

Because you took interest in his birthday🥳🪅he thought perhaps you were a nice person who he could make feel guilty 

You showed you cared 💚and he tried to take advantage of that 

I never forget travelling on a  bus in the Philippines last year with my boyfriend sitting next to me , a young  lady with a limp and crutches was standing 

No one stood up for her so I decided too

,she sat her ass down in my seat 💺 without even a acknowledgement and turned around shouting to her  Filipino father  to sit next to her ,, 

Pointing at my boyfriend who was seated at the window , she said  "and him go too ,my father need to sit down ! 

So she wasn't content with me getting up for her ,she wanted my boyfriends seat too 

He wouldn't budge 

Needless to say I was the laughing stock of the bus ,even the bus driver was laughing 😂 

But my Filipino boyfriend wasn't 🤬

I ended up standing for 30 minutes and ended up in a argument with my boyfriend when I got off ,sometimes it doesn't pay to be nice 👍 🙂 

 

 

 

 

 

[Keithambrose]

9 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Me too.

I am still waiting to read Keith's Pattaya trip report.

It will be even more interesting because he used a Siam Roads tour  guide.  It would be helpful to understand if when I have visitors to Pattaya that I could send on a good tour.

Thanks

I will search! If Best survives, then I would recommend  him. Good guide, good English. Seems reliable, was always on time. 

[Moses]

7 hours ago, floridarob said:

Obviously he did, as I believe him a million % vs you at about 10%....

7 hours ago, floridarob said:

Not sure if Russia business models care about customer service or perception of customer service, however you should be concerned because the introduction of the 2 were via your business and also because if he is a worker or contractor for you, such request for help should've been to you first, not a customer, no?

Your reply means you don't have me on ignore anyway and you are just flat out afraid to post anything in a public forum about Putin, what a sad life that must be to be silenced/muffled by fear.

Don't try to mix words or justify why you can't say anything negative, because we all know and it's pure fear....the US supporting Trump is cultish at this point, he's working on putting the same measures in place as Orban, Putin and friends to change that to fear. He already has put fear into some that they'll be coming after them, but that's just the 1st step, we'll see how far he gets, because I think the Americans have more balls than you do.

You write with self-confidence and arrogance about things you have no idea about, you try to lecture about things you yourself don't understand one iota about, and you do it with the aplomb of Trump, whom you hate, but impersonate so well.

"Who are you to lecture me?" (c) Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov

[Moses]

To all: the Siamroads business model is a cooperative. Guides are not hired employees, but independent partners who have united for joint advertising and promotion. And for each of them, membership in Siamroads is a way to earn extra money.

Siamroads began 15 years ago, on October 26, 2009, when I offered a Thai student who was conducting tours in Bangkok help in finding clients in gratitude for the fact that he helped me and my husband during our visit to Bangkok and refused to take money for this help. Then I made him a website, which is still online - just in memory of those times https://bkk-tours.com/ You are seeing the latest version of that site. It no longer has that very first student, and the guides shown are Yaya (old-timers of this forum still remember him) and Samit.

15 years have passed since then, including 3 years of COVID. Siamroads is the only one that survived COVID. The rest of those who served gays in Southeast Asia - companies, agencies - went bankrupt and closed, including the once famous Purple Dragon. And I will not write here what it took to save SiamRoads, what tragedies and victories occurred at that time. Those who were involved - they know, and the rest do not need to know.

Currently SiamRoads has about 30 guides. I communicate with everyone and have an idea of what is happening and with whom.

The reason for this topic to appear was Keith's kind heart. He takes to heart what happens to the guys. This is his right. But do not shift responsibility to me and SiamRoads for what happens privately between a Thai guy who is a partner of SiamRoads and a Western tourist who used the services of this guide in the past. This is their personal, private matter.

There are 30 guides. And all of them are young guys, just starting (or have started) their independent life in the developing countries of Southeast Asia. None of them were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Each of them has difficulties and problems. Do I know about these problems? No comment - this is between me and the guide. Do I help them? I have been running these sites for 15 years and advertising for them, from here these guys get orders and clients. The rest I will leave to your imagination, and old-timers can remember the fundraiser on this forum for a guide from the Philippines, whose house was blown away by a hurricane.

If you think that Best needs help, no one is stopping you, Keith knows where to find him. You can also order his tours - he is an excellent guide.

Alternatively, you can go to the bar where Best has his main job and talk to the owner, like, why does he pay Best so little. Anyone interested?