Don't be too shy. Things will get better!

[jason1975]

@Min thank you so much for sharing about your life. Am glad that you are helping J.

I have been helping my regular guy for a number of years now. We don't regard each other as boyfriends but we are close. He treats me as his godfather "cha nuôi" while I treat him as my godson "con nuôi".

I got to know him at X-Boys bar in Soi Twilight. After getting to know each other better for 2 years, con nuôi said he wanted to return to Vietnam permanently but he asked me for financial help. I said yes and it started with me sending him 12500 baht (S$500) every month. He managed to settle down into a job and could provide for his parents.

We had agreed to cut down the monthly contribution gradually. It came down to 7500 baht per month (S$300) and then Covid hit. I helped him and his family ride out Covid with some additional contributions.

After Covid, things didn't improve in Vietnam and con nuôi had no choice but to return to Bangkok to find work. He found a day job doing packing and deliveries. Probably encouraged by his friends, he went back to the life of gogoboy. He worked two jobs. He was at Dreamboys last year before the bar expelled all Vietnamese guys.

This year, he found a place at Freshboys. He works there from 8.30pm to 1am (if he doesn't get any off), sleeps at 2am and wakes up at 7am for his day job which lasts till 6 plus. On his off days, he gyms at outdoor gym at Lumpini Park. He gets 2 or 3 offs a week - typically Chinese customers who want him to fuck them. He knows how to speak a bit of Mandarin hence his popularity among customers from mainland China.

Being already 28 years old, con nuôi knows he cannot continue with his current situation forever. He is saving up to go back to Vietnam then enrol in a Korean language school full-time so that he can go to South Korea to work in shipbuilding as a permanent occupation. I told him I will continue helping him financially until he reaches South Korea.

[spoon]

16 minutes ago, jason1975 said:

He treats me as his godfather "cha nuôi" while I treat him as my godson "con nuôi".

So since your case isnt boyfriend situation, there is no exclusiveness i assume. Does the monthly stipends continues after he went back working at gogo?

[jason1975]

43 minutes ago, spoon said:

So since your case isnt boyfriend situation, there is no exclusiveness i assume. Does the monthly stipends continues after he went back working at gogo?

Yes I still send him money.

[jason1975]

23 hours ago, Min said:

I think it's not about the specific amount per se, but he thinks the deal is unnecessarily complicated (I'll talk to him just to be sure anyway). Also, the offered minimum of 25K is already generous, toward the high end of such deals. Most boys I know receives between 10K and 20K; one gets only 5K but no exclusiveness is required. V.'s case of 30K mentioned earlier is quite rare.

K., another Laos boy who has the most drinks in the bar, sometimes with 20+ drinks in a single night, more than most boys make in a week, and also someone who is willing to go with any paying customers, told me he normally makes between 20 and 30K per month, so if a customer wants to make an exclusive deal with him, the offered amount must be at least 25K. So here we go  

I am guessing the arrangement sounds complicated to J.

For V's case, does his boyfriend pay him every time they have sex on top of 30k he gives him every month?

[Min]

On 12/14/2024 at 12:20 AM, vinapu said:

that may mean one of two things , either he thought " sure it's obvious" or  " sure , how you will know if you will be away ? " .

I also met at least once of both kinds :  ' no , I don't go with customer, boyfriend told me not to "  but also " I will come to your hotel after shop closes , I don't want them to tell my friend I went with customer ".

That brings to life another question to members  - would you off boy who would tell you he has a boyfriend and he need to keep his endeavour with you secret ?

I know and I think I heard it all. Some even bragged about their cheating like it's some kind of achievement, to show off how smart they are. Others received money from a farang boyfriend to spend it on their local boyfriend. I guess if I do not trust J. enough, I wouldn't bother about making a deal. 

Regarding your question, I myself wouldn't go with a boy if I know he's in an exclusive relationship with someone else, whether I know that person or not. It's a matter of principle, which applies in non-commercial situations too.

There was this 19 year old boy in JC, whom when I offed him, told me he was single. Then I saw he wearing some brand-name sports clothes and shoes and asked how he could afford those. He said those were gifts from a German customer, who was his friend's boyfriend.

A few months ago, the boy contacted me and announced that he opened his own bar in JC. To my "Who gave you the money?", he said it was his own saving. I'm sure it was a lie, so I did a little digging and found out the boy had a German boyfriend (no doubt that "friend's boyfriend" mentioned earlier), who gave him the necessary capital of a few hundred grands to open a bar. 

It's nobody's surprise that the new bar didn't survive its first month (what that farang was thinking, to let a young boy with no skills and no experiences to run a bar on his own?). The relationship didn't work out either and the boy is now back to freelancing at M-bar, pretty much moneyless, according to my sources. So I guess I did sleep with someone's boyfriend by accident after all hehe. 
 

13 hours ago, reader said:

As Reagan said, “trust but verify “

Indeed. Whenever J. told me something, I first gave him the benefit of the doubt. If it later checked out (and it usually did), I trusted him a little more

12 hours ago, spoon said:

Does it also means you cant take or go out with other boys as well? 

As the payer, I got to dictate the terms hehe, so the emphasis is on J.'s behaviors However, I know that he cares and wishes I could be committed too. When we just started out, every time I mentioned a boy I used to sit with, J. always asked "Did you take him to the room?" (Boys usually don't ask their customers that kind of indiscreet questions about other boys rights?). I told him I sat with a lot of boys but offed relatively few. I like talking and flirting with them, but remain quite selective about whom I would take to my room. There were several trips during which I didn't make a single off (in both Bangkok and Pattaya) just because I didn't feel "clicking" with anyone.  

Subsequently, J. implied that if I go with other boys, he'd rather I don't tell him (then why he kept asking???). At least for now, I don't feel the need to off other boys. I stopped seeing all my former regular boys, both in Bangkok and Pattaya, and told them I've gone steady with someone for now. I even skipped Bangkok almost completely (maybe stopping over for 1 night once in a while to get updates on the bar scene) so that I can spend more time with J. He can see for himself that when I'm in Pattaya, I take him off every night and usually sit in his bar every night too. 
 

11 hours ago, jason1975 said:

I have been helping my regular guy for a number of years now. We don't regard each other as boyfriends but we are close. He treats me as his godfather "cha nuôi" while I treat him as my godson "con nuôi".

I think your "con nuôi" is fortunate to have you in his life. Is that boy No 28 you kept talking about in the other thread? I think I know all the regular Viet boys working at Fresh Boys by face, but can't just match a number with a particular face.

1 hour ago, jason1975 said:

I am guessing the arrangement sounds complicated to J.

For V's case, does his boyfriend pay him every time they have sex on top of 30k he gives him every month?

Nope, it is a fixed amount every month.

23 hours ago, vinapu said:

Unfortunately in that line of work they not only 'endure' but sometimes really need to endure clients they rather don't go with. I once asked guy of quite substantial  built whether he ever encountered violent client and he confirmed.   

The other day, Je., a roommate of J. (there are 5 of them sharing a room for 4K a month, 3 sleeping on the bed, 2 on the floor) was telling me something we already know "MB is no easy job. You wouldn't know all kinds of customers we've been through. There were times I was already naked in the room when the customer made a ridiculous demand. I wanted to put my clothes on and leave, then I think about how I'm gonna pay the rent tomorrow..."

His eyes are brimming with tear and it was insensitive of me to ask "What's the worst thing a customer ever did to you?"

He started with "A year ago..." and then broke down, not able to continue. "Sorry, I still can't talk about that..."

Once Je. went to the toilet, J. told me "Every boy has a similar story to tell. Customers made us cry more than you would think."

My inevitable question was "Have I ever made you cry?" He gave me a look "Certainly, but I don't want to talk about it."

But I think I know what he referred to. It was that time when I asked my Taiwanese friend to pose as a customer to test J. There were some big misunderstandings on both sides and we almost broke up over it. 

That night, after finishing work, J. took a couple of his close friends to go sitting on the beach and drinking. Around 4 or 5 am., the friends one by one went home to sleep. J. stayed on, drinking alone on the beach because he was devastated. "I didn't want to go home. I just wanted to keep drinking until I forget who I am." He later told his roommate, who confirmed that he came back to the room around 10 am, crashing almost immediately onto the bed.

Fortunately, I arrived in Pattaya that same afternoon and we had a long heart-to-heart that night and cleared up everything. As I said before, although I regret testing J., I did not realize how strong J.'s feeling for me was until that incident. Until then, he never told me he loves me but here is something he told H., my Taiwanese friend, "I love Min. But I don't think I'm worthy of his love because of my job as a money boy."

[vinapu]

15 hours ago, faranglaw said:

So spare me any glory tales about the good old days.

+1

[vinapu]

14 hours ago, jason1975 said:

 He gets 2 or 3 offs a week

and that's the one of best looking if not outright best looking guy there. At least that was emiel's and mine opinion when we visited bar last month and asked each other who looks the best.

So much about go-go  boys making fortunes like some suspect they do

[vinapu]

14 hours ago, jason1975 said:

He is saving up to go back to Vietnam then enrol in a Korean language school full-time so that he can go to South Korea to work in shipbuilding as a permanent occupation. I told him I will continue helping him financially until he reaches South Korea.

that's very noble and I hope he succeeds , in fact I should say , I hope you both succeed

[jason1975]

7 hours ago, Min said:

I think your "con nuôi" is fortunate to have you in his life. Is that boy No 28 you kept talking about in the other thread? I think I know all the regular Viet boys working at Fresh Boys by face, but can't just match a number with a particular face.

He's number 25. YY is his trade name. If you ever happen to be in Bangkok for one night, would you consider offing him just to chat with him? I think you are a very good listener and you are able to get people to open up to you. He doesn't tell me more about himself (probably because of language barrier) and I feel it's good for him to articulate his thoughts and feelings instead of keeping them bottled in. I sense a lot of angst inside him. You will be conducting some sort of counselling session. Will owe you big time if you can do it. But no worries if you can't!

[jason1975]

@Min maybe J is confused by your boyfriend-customer sponsorship arrangement. When you still pay him 3k every time you meet him despite giving him 25k every month, the relationship might continue to seem transactional. Your intentions are good (to get him to save up) but he might not have understood it because he compares the arrangement with other guys i.e. V's 30k per month arrangement.

It's obvious there is a special relationship that you have formed with J. Thanks for sharing such personal and intimate details about your relationship. Reading it has helped me with understanding my own relationship with my con nuôi.

[Min]

14 hours ago, jason1975 said:

He's number 25. YY is his trade name. If you ever happen to be in Bangkok for one night, would you consider offing him just to chat with him? 

Sorry about the number mix-up. When I have a chance, I'll see what I can do.

14 hours ago, jason1975 said:

@Min maybe J is confused by your boyfriend-customer sponsorship arrangement. 

I guess I'll sit him down the next time we meet and go through everything again to ensure "employee satisfaction" hehe.

Our deal actually includes some minor provisions, such as one shopping trip for clothes per month, 3K for transportation costs per home visit back to Laos (+ off fee if necessary), and (this is totally boyfriend privileges) unlimited hugging and kissing (i.e., J. can hug me and kiss me as much as he wants)  

[floridarob]

20 hours ago, vinapu said:

So much about go-go  boys making fortunes like some suspect they do

Considerably More than a regular Thai (or Lao, Viet, Cambodia) 6 day work week 8-12 hrs a day in a construction or hospitality  job with the chance of finding sponsors (bf) that will give them monthly payments 🧐

[vinapu]

1 hour ago, floridarob said:

Considerably More than a regular Thai (or Lao, Viet, Cambodia) 6 day work week 8-12 hrs a day in a construction or hospitality  job with the chance of finding sponsors (bf) that will give them monthly payments 🧐

You sound like Moses with his percentages and statistics. " Considerably more"   still doesn't mind anything close to fortune.  "Three times as much  as friend " may mean all of 1200 baht, nice sum to earn but still far from fortune or even base to start building post-bar future.

Few guys no doubt do well due to mix of good looks , hard work and smarts, saving money and investing it in something productive, I know two  who built houses , one bought pick up truck and started renting it but I doubt most of them have much to show for their troubles, partially because constant demand from  folks at home to send money. 

Another issue I see is lack of money managment skills. Whenever I hear boy living by Silom soi 10 , easy walk, or in soi Pluk Chit by Lumpini MRT station are coming to work in Patpong by taxi I shiver  

[floridarob]

1 hour ago, vinapu said:

Another issue I see is lack of money managment skills. Whenever I hear boy living by Silom soi 10 , easy walk, or in soi Pluk Chit by Lumpini MRT station are coming to work in Patpong by taxi I shiver  

This!
I had friends when I was younger I used to call $30,000 a year millionaires, because that's what they wanted people to think they were...

[Raposa]

5 hours ago, vinapu said:

Another issue I see is lack of money managment skills. Whenever I hear boy living by Silom soi 10 , easy walk, or in soi Pluk Chit by Lumpini MRT station are coming to work in Patpong by taxi I shiver  

It’s a type of mind set conditioned by an impoverished background. Attitudes to spending are often driven by immediate needs, rather than long-term planning, due to the difficulties and uncertainties of living in poverty.

[Min]

7 hours ago, vinapu said:

I doubt most of them have much to show for their troubles, partially because constant demand from  folks at home to send money. 

Another issue I see is lack of money managment skills. 

1 hour ago, Raposa said:

It’s a type of mind set conditioned by an impoverished background. Attitudes to spending are often driven by immediate needs, rather than long-term planning, due to the difficulties and uncertainties of living in poverty.

Hic, all these, unfortunately, I could clearly observe in J.'s case, especially in his financial support for folks at home. I've been trying to change his mindset, little by little, and encourage him to save for his OWN future, but I guess it will take time. 

[bkkmfj2648]

3 hours ago, Min said:

I've been trying to change his mindset, little by little, and encourage him to save for his OWN future, but I guess it will take time. 

And this is extremely hard. I have tried to engrain this mindset with several of the guys that I became close to over the years and I have failed in 98% of the cases.

Why?

Us as outsiders, we are fighting very strong cultural norms. Such as:

1.) Family back home is first and foremost priority - as the social security pension system here is intentionally inadequate by the government - because the government knows that the youngsters must take care of their elders.

2.) Poor families are often the ones who are intentionally sending 1 or 2 of their chosen children (once they are of legal age) down to Pattaya to earn easy money for the family. Often the child is pressured to do it for the family.

3.) Thailand is part of the collectivism mindset. I see this day after day here - if one person is down and out financially the others chip in to help. Unfortunately, due to the previously stated above 2 points + bad or zero education spent on financial saving and budgeting skills, this collectivism mechanism never allows any one individual to climb out of this downward financial spiral.  The only way is for said Thai person to leave and/or remove himself from this group of friends - for which, 98% of the time they will not do it because then they would lose face.

Therefore, I do not see a light at the end of the tunnel for our guys unless perhaps we remove the one that we care about the most by moving him out of Thailand?

Thoughts?

[spoon]

Perhaps they need to remember that most gays will not have son or daughter to rely on when we are older, unlike our str8 counterpart. Tiny portion may resort to get married anyway due to family pressure but im sure guy like Min who has string principle will not consider that. Another consideration is to adopt, and it does seems thailand upcoming marriage bills will allow this to happen legally. But based on my observation of the current gays population, most will be childless.

So, it is even more important for us to be self dependent during our retirement time. And for those who work as MB, they only have a very limited windows to earn money with their looks. 

Alas, as many have point out, MB with this kind of quality are rare indeed. Those i know who have this kind of thinking are surprisingly, the str8 MBs. 

[bkkmfj2648]

29 minutes ago, spoon said:

Those i know who have this kind of thinking are surprisingly, the str8 MBs. 

@spoon  Why do you think that is?

Why does a str8 MB have this very important understanding about finances and a gay MB does not?

[spoon]

11 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

@spoon  Why do you think that is?

Why does a str8 MB have this very important understanding about finances and a gay MB does not?

Maybe for Str8 mb, finding a BF to rely on for your expense isn't in the picture. Those who i know personally also have a wife and children or at least a steady GF, so they start to think about that future too.

Meanwhile, young gay MB still hoping of an easy life and won lottery of a sugar daddy or rich boyfriend who will take care of their financial till death.  

[jason1975]

5 hours ago, Min said:

Hic, all these, unfortunately, I could clearly observe in J.'s case, especially in his financial support for folks at home. I've been trying to change his mindset, little by little, and encourage him to save for his OWN future, but I guess it will take time. 

It is an admirable quality to see in J helping his family. I see the same in my con nuôi.  He bought land and built house for his parents and grandparents. But I feel he has overextended himself. He is living from hand to mouth and doesn't have much savings. He ends up working two jobs to make housing loan payments. Earlier this year, when his grandmother passed away, he didn't have enough cash to pay for urgent air ticket to go back for funeral. He had to call his cha nuôi to book the air ticket and even asked for help to pay for funeral expenses. Your J is a lovely young man. Would love to meet him one day.

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

And this is extremely hard. I have tried to engrain this mindset with several of the guys that I became close to over the years and I have failed in 98% of the cases.

Why?

Us as outsiders, we are fighting very strong cultural norms.

Thoughts?

I think not only we as outsiders are fighting strong cultural norms well ingrained.

We as relatively affluent outsiders in terms of wealth and material possessions may not grasp well choices  poor people are facing in their daily lives. And those may be like " do I have 20 baht for ticket to go to work or I better walk ?'' or "today for dinner we have only rice with some carrots because Bank needs new pen for the school".

For us taking taxi may be just one of many choices , all of them we can afford. But there are some people who may consider it as treat and luxury  and only luxury they can afford from time to time. For such people advice about saving money even if well meant and   generally very sound  may be otherwordly because horizon is too far.  "Walking for two month to work to save 20 baht day and at end of those two months I will have 1000 baht extra ? What this farang is talking about? " 

[Min]

21 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Family back home is first and foremost priority

this collectivism mechanism never allows any one individual to climb out of this downward financial spiral

Your insightful analyses make sense to me. When I told J., instead of spending all the money he made on his family, he should save and follow his own dream first. Once he succeeds, he will be in a much better position to help those back at home. And J. said "I'm the youngest son in the family. My mother is getting on and you know that she's not very healthy. If I finally make it one day but she's no longer around, my success would be meaningless to me. So I'm trying to make her happy whenever I can."

That thought actually strikes a deep chord in me. I was also from a family of humble background. Growing up in a country devastated by war and then communism, I suffered from malnutrition as a child. When my mother had some money, she took me to a food stall to have certain nutritious dishes, but she could afford only one portion. That meant she watched me eat and then finished off my leftover if there was any. Two of my life goals are to make my parents proud and to provide for them with everything they need. Unfortunately when I finally made a name for myself and earned a fortune, my folks were already too old and too weak to enjoy life and travel the world with me.

@jason1975 as sponsors, who have genuine intentions to help the boys prepare better for the future, I guess we all face the same dilemma. We can comfortably give them fish, but hardly manage to provide them with the so-called "fishing rod". Part of the problem is that if these poor boys have what it takes to make it, they probably never worked as MBs in the first place.

[Keithambrose]

8 hours ago, Min said:

Your insightful analyses make sense to me. When I told J., instead of spending all the money he made on his family, he should save and follow his own dream first. Once he succeeds, he will be in a much better position to help those back at home. And J. said "I'm the youngest son in the family. My mother is getting on and you know that she's not very healthy. If I finally make it one day but she's no longer around, my success would be meaningless to me. So I'm trying to make her happy whenever I can."

That thought actually strikes a deep chord in me. I was also from a family of humble background. Growing up in a country devastated by war and then communism, I suffered from malnutrition as a child. When my mother had some money, she took me to a food stall to have certain nutritious dishes, but she could afford only one portion. That meant she watched me eat and then finished off my leftover if there was any. Two of my life goals are to make my parents proud and to provide for them with everything they need. Unfortunately when I finally made a name for myself and earned a fortune, my folks were already too old and too weak to enjoy life and travel the world with me.

@jason1975 as sponsors, who have genuine intentions to help the boys prepare better for the future, I guess we all face the same dilemma. We can comfortably give them fish, but hardly manage to provide them with the so-called "fishing rod". Part of the problem is that if these poor boys have what it takes to make it, they probably never worked as MBs in the first place.

I took a different route.  I also had no money as a child,though, as it was the UK, support was available.  I became a lawyer, and did well, and I then considered options. Mine is a children's home in Siem Reap,  run by a dedicated Spanish lady, and Khmer staff.  All the kids have been abandoned or sold, the majority sexually abused. I asked what I can do, and the result was that I sponsor some of the kids, each over a 10 year period. Glad to say first one, now 19, left the home, and is at University.  These kids are the lucky ones.

[faranglaw]

“MB is no easy job. You wouldn't know all kinds of customers we've been through. There were times I was already naked in the room when the customer made a ridiculous demand. I wanted to put my clothes on and leave, then I think about how I'm gonna pay the rent tomorrow..."

Yes it can be a very dangerous job, and worse. Ten years ago a massage boy I knew and liked was murdered by a client in the Malaysia Hotel. Awful. Daeng was 23. 
It’s good to see that the overwhelming majority of posters here show respect and genuine concern for the money boys we meet. Even if most of them don’t follow our hopes (saving money, getting out of the game, getting an education), our presence makes a positive difference in their lives. We should cherish that.