More on Gay Taipei

[Guest fountainhall]

In Taipei last week-end, I planned on visiting a sauna named ‘Aniki’. I had heard great reports of it and there are some excellent comments on utopia-asia -

 

http://www.utopia-asia.com/taipsaun.htm

 

However, lunching with my ex-boyfriend, he said I should really go to see a newish ‘in’ spot for gays at The Red House -

 

http://www.utopia-asia.com/taipbars.htm

 

This is actually a red-brick theatre in the Ximen district (not too far from the main Railway Station). The building itself is indeed a cultural centre, but two sides around it are packed with gay boutiques, pubs and clubs (even a “Bear’ Bar) – many of them in the open air. So it’s a bit like an expanded version of Bangkok's Silom Soi 4. Apparently, at week-ends it gets packed between around 8:00 and 11:00 when the guys all then go off to the more indoor established pubs and clubs.

 

I got there around 6:30 pm when it was getting dark. There were not so many guys around, but it was obvious the bars and cafes were gearing up for a lot of business later in the evening. Unfortunately it was too dark to get decent photos, and so I just took a few so you can find your way there. Go to Ximen subway station on the Blue line - one stop west of Taipei Main Station - and then take Exit 1 to Red Theater Plaza. Go straight ahead on exiting and the complex is on your left. You will easily see the red brick cultural building. Walk around to the other side to find the open-air bars and cafes. There is also a second level with smaller clubs.

 

Being too early, I decided just to return to an old haunt, Hans Mens Sauna, which is only another 50 meters away. Hans has been in quite a run down state for years now, but I have always been lucky there. The crowd is mixed in both age and background. Being Saturday, it was quite busy. Within minutes a 22-year old serving his year in the army made his intentions clear, whereafter I enjoyed a quite lovely evening.

 

Hans is just across the road from the Red Theater area. As you walk just beyond the red brick building and turn 90 degrees right, proceed on between the building and the open-air bars. Straight ahead you will see a couple of exits on to another road. Once there, look left. Just across the traffic lights on the other side, you will see a hotel sign (photo below). Hans is the first entrance on the left as you enter the first little alley after the hotel.

 

There is another sauna on the same road - Rainbow. This is huge and attracts generally a younger crowd, but in my experience it's one with a bit of 'attitude' and guys who really are sticky-rice. To get to Rainbow, don't turn left to Hans when existing the Red Theater complex, turn right. Cross the road and walk up for a few blocks (sorry, can't recall how many). All I recall is that the steps leading from the street in to that sauna have rainbow colours. It sounds to me, though, that Aniki and The Office saunas are better bets. I wonder if anyone has any experience of them?

 

As a result of my encounter, my plans for later in the evening– another visit to the all-male hot-spring just outside the city (see post #21 of 22 March 2010 in the thread Suggestions for destinations outside Thailand on the Gay Asia Board) had to be postponed. My friend tells me there are now 2 all-male hot springs there very close to each other, the second one more intimate and a little more cruisy – meaning that the guys are a little less shy. Mind you, last year I found the sight of 80+ totally naked guys walking around without any inhibitions cruisy enough!

 

Still no news of the date of the 2011 Taipei Gay Parade. I’ll post it when I find out.

[Guest snapshot]

Nice report and thanks for the info.

 

But whoever stuck this and all the other Taiwan reports under "China" (Mainland) should rethink. It's offensive to Taiwanese people. Taiwan is a separate country and will never be part of Mainland China again.

[Guest fountainhall]

Mea culpa! I posted it here - and, as must surely have been obvious, I was certainly not making a political comment. I did so partly because there is no Taiwan sub-Forum here, but also because it is very common nowadays to refer to Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macao and mainland China as part of "greater China". Indeed, I was on a Conference call with a client in Xi'an last week in which we both referred openly to "greater China" when discussing specifics about Taiwan and the PRC.

 

Clearly, there are not enough posts to justify four sub-Forums. So either this Forum stays as it is and covers China, Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan; or, for those who are more sensitive about the politics of the region (a discussion more suited to the Beer Bar, I'd suggest), this Forum could be retitled Greater China.

[Guest snapshot]

Ah fair enough... I thought it might've been the mod structuring it.

 

I agree "Greater China" would be much better title for this forum. Otherwise, split it up into Mainland China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Otherwise, it can be offensive to the more sensitive Taiwanese.

[Guest fountainhall]

Just to add a little to this discussion after another few days spent in Taipei.

 

I have visited Taipei at least 50 times since the late 1980s when martial law was lifted by Chiang Kai Shek's son and successor, Chiang Ching-kuo. For a long time, there was open hostility towards mainland China. Now I find everything is totally different. Indeed, when you fly into CKS International Airport, the first thing you notice is the number of flights by mainland airlines that are now able to land here from mainland China.

 

Over the last 2 decades, Taiwanese entrepreneurs have become one of the largest groups of all investors in mainland China. Tourism between Taiwan and the mainland is becoming a flood, although the mainland tourists are presently restricted to groups. Even so, the numbers are very significant, as they are in Hong Kong! I read in the South China Morning Post recently that 20 million mainland tourists now flock to Hong Kong every year. Prior to 1997, that number was a mere trickle, and it's one of the reasons why hotel prices there have gone through the roof! Apartment prices shot up even before 1997 as hot money flowed down from the mainland, and are now at astronomic levels. Don't ever let anyone tell you that the Taiwanese do not want mainland money flowing into the country!

 

Yes, the older Taiwanese remain suspicious of the mainland. And younger Taiwanese are protective of their identity as Taiwanese. However, the vast majority are of Chinese ethnic descent, many have family members living in China, and the average age of Taiwanese is relatively young. I have no doubt whatever that Deng Xiao-ping's "one country, two systems" solution that has worked spectacularly well in Hong Kong and Macau was devised largely with Taiwan in mind. And if anyone has a book open on the future of Taiwan, I'll put money on its adopting that "one country, two systems" in the fullness of time. Westerners tend to think short term. The Chinese have always thought very long term!

[ChristianPFC]

Taiwan is a separate country and will never be part of Mainland China again.

Germany was split into two countries and till about two year before the re-unification, nobody could imagine that they would become one country, let alone that quickly. Therefore, nobody can predict if China and Taiwan or North and South Corea will be unified.

 

Maybe the China (Mainland), Taiwan, Hongkong, Macau issue can be solved by writing "countries where Chinese (Mandarin or Kantonese) is the main language".

 

I remember there was an international student's day in my university in England, and the Taiwanese were not allowed to have their own booth as Taiwan is not recognized by the United Nations.

[Guest]

Whilst Taiwan is more prosperous & more democratic than China, I cannot foresee any voluntary reunification. There is no need for it either.

 

Korea is a different matter. If the population of the North ever succeed in overthrowing their leadership, reunification should follow very quickly.

[Guest fountainhall]

Maybe the China (Mainland), Taiwan, Hongkong, Macau issue can be solved by writing "countries where Chinese (Mandarin or Kantonese) is the main language".

Interesting you should mention language because even the written ones are now diverging. One of Mao's innovations that did work was the introduction of a simpler way of writing Chinese characters - known as pinyin 簡化字 - as a way of promoting literacy. So, now China, Singapore and Malaysia use this simpler form of written Chinese, whereas Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macao still use the older more complicated traditional characters!

 

I still think the "one country, two systems" (meaning separate systems of administration/government) is the right solution. It gives each territory the right to continue using its own laws, education systems, religion . . . and so on, whilst the mainland looks after defence. Time will only tell if Taiwan and China become so integrated and if the people of Taiwan accept that the mainland Chinese will keep their part of the deal.

 

This was a real concern of many of those who fled Hong Kong before the 1997 handover. But, with one exception (where Beijing was asked to clarify the rule of law in respect of Chinese pregnant women who came to Hong Kong only to have their babies and therefore the children became Hong Kong residents), the Chinese have indeed more than lived up to their word. In Hong Kong, I'd love to see the PLA troops who are stationed there walking around - some are said to be very good looking! But they remain confined to barracks, and on days off must dress in jeans and T-sgirts deliberately so they are not recognised as troops!

[Rogie]

Korea is a different matter. If the population of the North ever succeed in overthrowing their leadership, reunification should follow very quickly.

 

That would seem likely and I hope it happens exactly as you say, but putting my lateral thinking cap on maybe we shouldn't be so hasty. The Korean war was nearly 60 years ago, since when the county's been divided. In that time the north has been sustained both financially and ideologically by its huge northern neighbour, China. If reunification had been on the cards during the heyday of communist China's belligerence they might well have decided North Korea belonged with them. Perhaps there are still those in China today with just the same thinking. Just a thought!

[Guest chompi27]

When I visited the lovely museum in Taipei the mayor of Shaghai was paying a visit ! It was really nice to see that despite the differences the people pay mutual visits and getting closer. I am just hoping that many gay chinese visit Taiwan and gay Taiwanese visit China

[Guest fountainhall]

When I visited the lovely museum in Taipei the mayor of Shaghai was paying a visit ! It was really nice to see that despite the differences the people pay mutual visits and getting closer.

That visit was loaded with symbolism. Not only was it a high mainland official visiting Taiwan; it was a mainland official visiting a Museum which houses amazing treasures which Chiang Kai Shek stole from the mainland! Rightfully, they belong on the mainland.

 

But you are right. That is one of the great Museums of the world with unquestionably the finest examples of Chinese art and artefacts. Like many Museums, there are so many artworks, it has to rotate them. One of the most stunning is a small piece of green and white jade which has been carved into a Chinese cabbage with a tiny dragonfly perched on it. Exquisite!

[Guest fountainhall]

whoever stuck this and all the other Taiwan reports under "China" (Mainland) should rethink. It's offensive to Taiwanese people.

 

 

I think events have once again proved that sentiment to be somewhat out-dated. Many will have seen the news that Taiwan’s President has just been comfortably re-elected for a second four-year term. Since Ma Ying-jeou has spearheaded the more open-door policy with mainland China, clearly this is something the majority of Taiwan voters wish to see continued.

 

As evidence of the open-door policy, I noticed a scheduled EVA Airlines 777 taking off from Beijing’s Capitol Airport yesterday, something that would have been unheard of until recently. Mainland tourism to Taiwan has mushroomed in the last couple of years. Indeed, Mr. Ma has pledged to open the door further to greatly increase China tourism to the island. And Taiwan's trade with China has now overtaken that with the USA.

 

Whilst Mr. Ma’s party’s majority was reduced, according to the BBC “most voters still view relations with China as the most important issue.”

 

This does not mean reunification is on the cards. What I believe it does mean is that Taiwanese voters fully accept that good relations with China are vastly preferable to confrontational ones.

[Guest]

The title was clarified in between the preceding comments. This now covers China, Hong Kong, Macau & Taiwan, without ever suggesting one country is part of another.

 

If we ever have a Korean forum, perhaps there would just be one of those too.

 

All I hope is the populations of all these countries get to chose their own destiny. That's how it is in Taiwan & South Korea at present.

[Guest snapshot]

Good that the forum title has been improved.

 

But I think you'd be better off separating out Hong Kong and Taiwan. These are distinctly different destinations from Mainland China. Totally different experience and totally different gay culture. If you spend time in all three you'll know. But Macau, I don't know.

 

This does not mean reunification is on the cards. What I believe it does mean is that Taiwanese voters fully accept that good relations with China are vastly preferable to confrontational ones.

Exactly... I'm well aware of and accept the closer links and trade. but while this makes reunification more achievable and the Mainland Chinese government can't be anything but happy about it, it is still an entirely different issue and no indicator of whether reunification will happen.

 

So not sure why you think these sentiments are outdated just because the attitude has shifted slightly. Trade with the mainland has become more important for these Taiwanese economy - there's an economic profit motive to the improvement in relations. But Taiwanese still want their own identity and they still want to retain their independence. Reunification won't happen unless the situation greatly changes to produce strong enough motives.

[Guest fountainhall]

Good that the forum title has been improved.

But I think you'd be better off separating out Hong Kong and Taiwan.

 

I really don't agree with you on this. I do some business with companies on the mainland, and it is now very common even for government and local government officials to group the mainland, Macao, Hong Kong and Taiwan as "Greater China". Granted, all are different and gay issues and attitudes to homosexuality differ in each. So if you really want to discuss individual differences, there would have to be four threads. But that is surely impractical - certainly, given the lack of posting on general "greater China" gay issues.

 

And you are right - a large number of Taiwanese have wanted independence for a long time. But most people forget that those who live on Taiwan are essentially from two separate backgrounds. Historically, the present-day Taiwanese are not one people. There are the local Taiwanese who have lived there for ages. Then there are the descendants of the two million or so followers of Chiang Kai Shek who took the island over in 1949 after having been defeated by Mao. The latter never regarded Taiwan as their home. Taiwan was merely a temporary refuge until they were able to invade the mainland and defeat the communist government. But the times, they are a-changing. The Kuomintang know there is no chance whatever of successfully invading the mainland. That's a dead issue. And the fact is, like it or not, those in this very large group of millions of people are all either Chinese or descendants of Chinese from mainland China!

 

When the British government in 1984 caved in to almost all of China's demands regarding the return of Hong Kong in 1997, there was near panic amongst some of the population. Many took their families and settled in Sydney, Melbourne, Vancouver, Toronto and other cities that would take them.

 

But by the early 1990s, most had realised that the opportunities to be had in Hong Kong were far greater than in their adopted cities. Most then started returning. So was born a very large group of Hong Kong Chinese called "astronauts" - individuals who returned to work in Hong Kong but left their families overseas and flew back for long week-ends a few times a year.

 

When, at the stroke of midnight on 30 June/1 July 1997 the Chinese army came over the border to assume its duties of defending the territory (I was there - I watched it all in the pouring monsoon rain), the alarm returned. Yet, where is that alarm today? It has totally disappeared. I just returned a couple of hours ago from Hong Kong. Now there are very few who are not content with the fact that they are part of the mainland. And it is this very success that the mainland has achieved in Hong Kong and Macao - Deng Xiao-ping's "one country, two systems" principle - that is already being floated for Taiwan in the fullness of time.

 

Westerners have a tendency to think in terms of days, weeks, months and years. The Chinese think in terms of decades and centuries. They can wait!

[Guest]

Also, we're a Gay Thailand board, with not so many people contributing to this section.

 

I think tidying up the title to specify that these 4 entities should go into one forum is sufficient, even if there may be differences between them.

 

Of course if we has about 10 active threads for each, perhaps separate forums would be justifed.

 

As it stands, we don't have Japan or Korea forums either.

[Guest snapshot]

Westerners have a tendency to think in terms of days, weeks, months and years. The Chinese think in terms of decades and centuries. They can wait!

The problem with some Chinese - I mostly mean the ones who aren't as widely traveled and broadly exposed - is they often don't have the ability to think in the present and just be happy now! Frustrating.

[Guest fountainhall]

The problem with some Chinese - I mostly mean the ones who aren't as widely traveled and broadly exposed - is they often don't have the ability to think in the present and just be happy now! Frustrating.

 

WIth all due respect, I cannot agree that one follows from the other! Take your comment to some sort of logical conclusion - Germany after World War I should just have sat back and enjoyed the present? Then we would all have been spared World War II!

 

The desire to right perceived historical wrongs is deeply embedded in the human psyche. That is not just an attribute of the Chinese. And even if a lot of Chinese think in a longer time frame, I doubt if that has any impact on their enjoyment of life in the present.

[Guest snapshot]

Ok... you're taking the post a little too seriously.

 

Firstly, my comment had nothing to do with history or whatever else you're talking about.

 

It was a simple, observational comment coming from my experience with them. Matter of fact. Not intended to gratuitously put them down.

 

I deeply understand (probably more so than most Westerners would) why they're like that. I have a little bit of that in me too! Took me some time to break these kind of thinking patterns (not so extreme) myself.

 

As for whether focusing on longer time frames and being incapable of focusing on and being happy in the present "has any impact on their enjoyment of life in the present"... it bloody well does!

 

This is a very subjective opinion so maybe not constructive to argue over it. But in my experience, many of them go through a lot of unnecessary mental suffering and miss out on a lot of happiness because unless they're sure the future will be rich and ripe, they're unable to be happy for what they have now. They find it difficult to enjoy something now if they know it's not something they will have "forever".

 

Just a totally different mindset.

 

By the way... I don't want to make assumptions and such but the type of Chinese most Westerners deal with are usually more broadly exposed and open minded. I'm talking about the more closed up Chinese (often but not necessarily poorer) who've had their minds screwed by the years of Communist rule (or by their parents who lived under this mentality).

[Guest fountainhall]

As for whether focusing on longer time frames and being incapable of focusing on and being happy in the present "has any impact on their enjoyment of life in the present"... it bloody well does!

 

I cannot disagree more strongly. And I have my own experience of "them" based on living there for decades. However, it's possible for two people to see things completely differently and, as you say, it's not worth arguing over. We've had our say. I'll leave it at that - apart from responding to one of your comments -

 

I'm talking about the more closed up Chinese (often but not necessarily poorer) who've had their minds screwed by the years of Communist rule (or by their parents who lived under this mentality).

 

Now that sounds far more like North Korea than any China I have ever witnessed - even in 1979. You seem to forget the effects of the Cultural Revolution and the subsequent economic opening up of the country. The first was a mindlessly traumatic event that destroyed most Chinese belief in communism. The second showed the world that almost every Chinese, barring a very few of the ageing old guard, is a capitalist at heart.