Kamala scored big in FOX News debate

[RockyRoadTravel]

Very interesting to see how Bret Baier turned an interview into a partisan debate. (Trump has been afraid of facing Harris in another debate.) She handled the speechifying, and questions, well.

Harris should do more interviews with Bret Baier at FOX.  She showed she doesn't need media safe spaces and support journalist as Trump has needed for months.  

[RockyRoadTravel]

Next I expect her to go on Joe Rogan.  She isn't afraid to go into unfriendly territory. The defeated former president is showing his weakness being unable to do interviews from non-fawning journalists 

[Suckrates]

13 minutes ago, RockyRoadTravel said:

Next I expect her to go on Joe Rogan.  She isn't afraid to go into unfriendly territory. The defeated former president is showing his weakness being unable to do interviews from non-fawning journalists 

Agreed, BUT will that get her the WIN ?    There isnt much that seems to HARM Trump.....

[RockyRoadTravel]

10 hours ago, Suckrates said:

Agreed, BUT will that get her the WIN ?    There isn't much that seems to HARM Trump.....

Sun light is the best disinfectant.  She needs to speak about reality, to a section of the American people who get very censored and biased news from FOX and other right-wing partisan media sources.  

[stevenkesslar]

More!  More!  More!

I think Harris thrives in these adversarial interviews.  At least when they are tethered to reality, as anything Bret Baier says actually is. As opposed to a Tucker Carlson interview where we are led to believe most people actually do eat cats and dogs.

It was kind of her biggest weaknesses, all real.  I think she did great.  The prosecutor in her came out.  She fought, and I think she won.  She looked rough, and not like a UN diplomat.

I found that 60 Minutes interview particularly awful.  Some of it was the editing, no doubt.  But both characters in that interview seemed like Ai inventions who were designed to speak UN, not English.  This Fox News thing was about two real and smart people fighting it out.  Whether it wins her the votes of Fox News voters or not, it makes her look smart and tough to swing voters.   No pablum.   What she communicated to me is that I want solutions to real problems, like actual real voters do.

[KYTOP]

I watched and I thought Mr Baier tried to ask some good questions. I particularly wanted her answer as to when she realized of President Biden's Cognitive decline and why was she part of the Administration coverup of his decline. But she did not give an answer, just punted. To my knowledge no other Media person has been brave enough to ask her that question. I still would like to her answer and wish others would push her for an answer. They wasted 10 minutes, about a third of the interview, talking over each other on immigration. I thought his question was reasonable, everyone admits immigration is a big mess, she admitted it. So what will she do different than the Biden-Harris Administration has done in the last 3 1/2 years? I still don't see anything there different. I did learn something I did not know, that one of their first acts over 3 years ago, when Dems controlled Congress, was an immigration bill. It did not pass because 6 Democrat Senators voted against it.

Harris spent too much time bashing Trump and not laying out what she will do Different from the current Administration she is a part of. She needs to realize the bashing doesn't work. Everyone I know already has an opinion of the man, good, bad, indifferent, or just look past any new Trump Negatives. There have been so many, most people just don't pay attention to it anymore. It is like scar tissue, it is already seared over. 

Other than her desire to bring back Roe v Wade, her abortion position I don't see much meat in what she wants to do. I still want to know more about what she will do from her own mouth, not just Trump bashing. No I do not want to do as she says and check her website, read her 18-30 or what ever pages of a position paper. Just in plain simple non rambling English what will you do about all this country's multiple problems. I think that is reasonable.

I did not see her 60 minutes interview, I have been planning to go back and view it but haven't yet had time. I thought her appearances on the View and Colbert were terrible. Learned nothing.

Constant vote for me because I call Trump every bad, evil thing that can be thought of, just might not work. And she needs to realize that real Damn quick before she loses. When people go to the Grocery and are reminded how much groceries have gone up in 3 years, she needs to give some answers. I saw on CNN a few months back during the primaries the reporter outside a polling place talked to people after they had voted. The reporter reminded a lady that inflation was cooling. She replied "I don't know whose wallet they are looking at, it sure ain't mine." Vice-President Harris needs to be reminded of that lady every day until the election. If that lady thinks Trump can do something about her High Grocery bill, then Harris will lose and the lady doesn't care how many bad things Harris says about Trump. 

[stevenkesslar]

You made a bunch of interesting comments.  

If Harris loses, there will be a list of 1000 reasons why.   At the top of most lists will be the idea that was mentioned by a lot of talking heads when she first took over for Biden.  She needed to name 3 ways she would be different than Biden.  She has not done that.  So a lot of the criticism boils down to the idea that she is just playing it safe.  60 Minutes seemed like a textbook example of saying nothing.  In part due to weird editing and in part due to playing it safe.

So what made Fox interesting is neither Baier nor Harris were playing it safe.  Even a hard hitting journalist like Mark Halperin argued (to Sean Spicer, on his 2Way podcast) that Baier was disrespectful to the office of VP.  I disagree.  I'd rather have her pressed by adversarial journalists.  Again, I think it made her look tough.  It demonstrated something about what she feels in her gut. 

That said, you could also argue it was a disservice by Fox to make it seem like what we all really need to know about is whether prisoners need sex changes. 

1 hour ago, KYTOP said:

Vice-President Harris needs to be reminded of that lady every day until the election. If that lady thinks Trump can do something about her High Grocery bill, then Harris will lose and the lady doesn't care how many bad things Harris says about Trump. 

Baier talked more about prisoner sex changes then the tens of millions of working class families that got expanded child tax credits, some of whom must watch Fox News.  Harris wants to restore those credits.  That will have more of an impact on grocery bills for tens of millions of Americans than whether a few prisoners got their dicks chopped off.  Harris got her point across, I think.  Let's talk about child tax credits and down payments on homes.  For some strange reason, people care about that more than prisoner sex changes.  Baier was clearly interested in throwing red meat at Fox News viewers, as well as talking about grocery prices.

1 hour ago, KYTOP said:

Harris spent too much time bashing Trump and not laying out what she will do Different from the current Administration she is a part of.

I tend to agree with you.  That said, we both may be wrong.  I just read this interesting analysis of the interview.  

'Mission Accomplished': Harris Targets Haley Holdouts in Fox News Interview

Wegman is simply voicing his own opinion, just like you and me.  So whether he has his finger on the pulse of Haley voters is not something I am qualified to comment on.  But his argument makes sense.

Right of center Fox News viewers who like Haley and dislike Trump have two choices. If they want to vote based on policy - like immigration policy, or food prices, or gas prices, or whether we need more liberal programs - they are very likely to vote for Trump.  That is why they are right of center Fox viewers who voted for Haley, after all.  So Harris arguably had one card to play with them:  Trump is toxic.  Ask Mike Pence, who says Trump is toxic.  Ask Liz Cheney, who says Trump is toxic.  Ask the generals who served for him, conservatives ones and all, who say he is a a disturbed man who should never be given power again.

Not what you wanted to hear.  And not what I need to hear to persuade me.  Like you, I'd rather have the policy debate.  But Wegman may be right that Harris prosecuted the case against Trump in the only way right of center Haley voters will buy.

 

 

 

 

[KYTOP]

50 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

 

Baier talked more about prisoner sex changes then the tens of millions of working class families that got expanded child tax credits, some of whom must watch Fox News.  Harris wants to restore those credits.  That will have more of an impact on grocery bills for tens of millions of Americans than whether a few prisoners got their dicks chopped off.  Harris got her point across, I think.  Let's talk about child tax credits and down payments on homes.  For some strange reason, people care about that more than prisoner sex changes.  Baier was clearly interested in throwing red meat at Fox News viewers, as well as talking about grocery prices.

 

 I think the point was to me that most Americans feel that is a waste of their tax dollars. The deficit is a big issue for me.

One thing to note toward the end Mr Baier said he has 2 more questions, he didn't get to ask them, The interview did not go the full 30 minutes and he was given the STOP signal, I understand several times by the Harris people. I wonder what the 2 questions were? I would have hoped the economy was one of them. We will never know I guess unless they are talking about it on FOX News?

[stevenkesslar]

41 minutes ago, KYTOP said:

 I think the point was to me that most Americans feel that is a waste of their tax dollars. The deficit is a big issue for me.

If you are talking about the expanded child tax credits, the polling on that was interesting.  I'm a huge supporter of the idea, of course.  Until Republicans and Manchin helped kill them, the expanded credits briefly cut child poverty in half.  And it is a concrete way to help tens of millions of working class Americans. 

It is expensive.  And I am a deficit hawk, too.  (See Clinton, Bill, budget surplus).  I would argue this should be a priority.  But the polling when the credits were in place was about 50/50.  The obvious people who liked it most were the people who got it.  Just like the people who like Obamacare and Social Security the most are people on it.  The main opponents were people who did not receive credits and think it cost too much.  

Whatever one thinks of child tax credits, it is a great example of a specific policy proposal Harris has made.  And she will happily talk about that, and why it might be better than more tax cuts for the Top 1 %.  And arguably that is more important to most people than prisoners who want sex changes. 

You basically reinforced Wegmans's point, if I understand your point correctly.  You come off as a very reasonable and moderate guy.  So if you are not a fan of child tax credits, probably most Fox News viewers agree with you.  That would argue Wegman is correct.  Don't talk about liberal programs on Fox News.  Talk about what Mike Pence and Liz Cheney and lots of conservative generals think about the sick, deranged man Donald Trump is.  Again, whether Wegman is right is debatable.  But he has a good point.

Only tangentially related, check this out:

That's the electoral college map of 1996.  Can anyone possibly imagine any Democrat winning any time soon with an electoral map like this?

The 1976 map was even more focused on the South, thanks to Jimmy Carter.  No doubt that had something to do with the fact that the only Democrats to win the White House between 1961 and 2008 were Southern Democrats.  I'm not holding out hope for Kentucky voting for a Democratic President anytime soon.

The reason I post this in the context of Harris and Fox News is that it seems like the necessary political project, if Democrats want a governing majority, is how do you win the Presidency as a Democrat with a map like that again?  At the beginning of this century Ruy Teixeira argued Democrats were in fact moving toward a working governing majority.  Which the election of Obama seemed to manifest.  Oops!  Spoke too soon.  Now Teixeira argues Democrats have to somehow embrace lots more centrist positions, especially on culture war issues.  

The reason I am particularly interested in ideas like child tax credits is that the formula that usually works seems to be economic populism, tied to cultural moderation.  In theory that was what worked for Southern Democrats for generations.  Although you could argue a good dose of George Wallace virulent racism often helped.  

One way to go to the heart of it is that the problem with the Fox News interview was that it should have been Andy Beshear, not Kamala Harris, being interviewed.  If Democrats want an electoral map like the one above, maybe the issue is that nominating (sort of) a liberal Black woman from left wing San Francisco is not the best idea, period.   I am from California and I genuinely like and respect Harris.  But if Harris loses, it will open that debate.  And even if she wins, how do Democrats ever hope to have 60 votes in the Senate again?

My hope is that Democrats will adjust their policies, rebrand economic populism - however we want to define it - and tone down the culture war stuff.  Immigration is a very good start.  Which will be painful.  But the basic idea of economic populism + going for the cultural center is what worked for Bill Clinton pretty well.  Also, again, Clinton running a surplus didn't hurt his Presidency or his legacy.  And it is a way to be able to show up on Fox News and genuinely connect.  If that is the goal.

 

 

[Suckrates]

The FACT to me is that I dont see how ANY American voter can consider Trump a viable option in any election based on the things we know he did and the person we know he is ?

Stop looking for reasons NOT to vote for Harris.   The reason TO vote for her is so Trump doesnt win.  Why cant people understand that this isnt a normal election with the usual concerns of economy, border, infrastructure, blah, blah, blah.   This is an election to preserve the Democracy of the US, or to relinquish it to a crazy autocratic Ruler.

So when @KYTOP goes on and on about why he cant vote for Harris, or where Harris comes up short, its all just white noise to me....  Its excuses that might work for a "normal" election, but THIS election is not that.   The choices are either you Dont vote, which will probably hand the win  to Trump, you do vote for Trump which will be a death sentence for America, or you vote Harris, which allows America to survive, for at least another 4 years.   we KNOW enough about Harris to know that she is the better option of Americas "survival", and that is the ONLY thing that counts in this election. 

Its all pretty simple and I dont know why people are trying to complicate the choices they have with minutia that doesnt play well for THIS particular election.  Compare Harris to Trump and make your fucking choice, and stop normalizing this election.  IT AINT NORMAL !   

[stevenkesslar]

6 hours ago, Suckrates said:

So when @KYTOP goes on and on about why he cant vote for Harris, or where Harris comes up short, its all just white noise to me....

In his defense, I don't think he said he can't vote for her.  He said she dodged questions, which she did. 

Baier is a good journalist.  I always like watching him for a sound but right of center take on the news.  So he did a good job of stringing together pretty much every awkward question she has NOT been drilled on.  I suppose he could have added something about whether her hubby Doug was really abusive to women.  But you get the point.  I'll just repeat my argument.  I'm glad he attacked her.  It showed she is tough and she can handle someone going after her and not even letting her finish a sentence.  

Sean Spicer should know something about how Presidents communicate.  His reaction to this was that "Kamala did herself no favors." And she missed the mark in communicating to Fox News viewers.  I disagree.  And it probably shows how even somebody who was a White House Press Secretary sees what he wants to see.  Harris made one argument very well:  lots of conservative Republicans think Trump is toxic and he can't be given power ever again.  If that was her goal, she did her job.  And I think we know a significant slice of Republicans who watch Fox have deep doubts about Trump.

6 hours ago, Suckrates said:

Why cant people understand that this isnt a normal election with the usual concerns of economy, border, infrastructure, blah, blah, blah. 

That's the question historians will be asking for as long as the US exists.  You and I agree about Trump.  It's a good question why so many people don't. 

I think @lookin is correct that a necessary part of this is that a lot of people, a significant minority of voters,  just really like an authoritarian leader.  Even if he constantly lies and breaks rules and laws at will. I don't get it.  But MAGA clearly loves it.  This is necessary, but not sufficient, for Trump to win.  I think the sufficient reason Trump could win is basically inflation.  It's technically a non-issue now, since it is down to 2.4 %.  Trump would call that "a perfect number" if he had to defend it.  And if inflation had been 2.4 % for each of the last four years, I think Harris would win handily.  And she obviously can't change the past.  But that is THE issue to me.  And Baier hammered her hard.  You were in power when this happened.  Why did you let this happen?  Are people stupid for not wanting more of that?   They were good questions.  I think she gave good answers and showed exactly why she was an excellent prosecutor of facts.  But it is about the economy, stupid.

Majority of Americans Feel Worse Off Than Four Years Ago

Since part of your argument is that "it's the economy, stupid" does not apply this year, I'm going to add several wonky paragraphs about why the economy matters.  I think it is actually worse than you think, @Suckrates.  The MAGA faithful are so cultish and so loyal to Trump that they believe almost any bullshit or filth or lie that comes out of his deceitful mouth.  So they have a completely distorted view of the economy.  Harris would not say these people are stupid on camera.  And most of them are not stupid.  But they do not understand the economy they are living in.  The irony is that Trump lost in 2020 despite the fact that he literally presided over "the best economy" ever, if you believe the poll above.  And Harris is about to win despite presiding over, as Veep, "the worst economy" ever, according to the poll above. 

To me, this thing about how bad the economy sucks right now is kind of a sick joke.  And it is a joke on Trump voters.  They lost in 2020 and are about to lose again.  So we can at least feel sorry for them, since they really have pulled a sick joke on themselves.

That Gallup poll says 52 % of Americans think they and their family are WORSE OFF than four years ago.  That is a stunning number.  And it could easily be taken as the only thing you need to know to explain why Harris will lose.  As @KYTOP pointed out, it is the woman at the grocery store who knows damn well that prices are a lot higher now than when Donald Trump was President.  That is a fact.  This has to mean Harris will lose, right?

Well, maybe not.  Maybe it's not just the economy, stupid.  The same Gallup poll said in 2020 55 % of voters said they and their family were BETTER OFF than four years ago.  So Trump had to win in 2020, right?  The economy in 2020 was better than any other Presidential election, according to voters in that Gallup poll.  And yet Trump lost.  How did that happen? 

I have a great anecdotal answer.  One of my brothers who loves John McCain voted for Trump in 2016 because he thought he would be better for the economy than Clinton.  He voted for Biden in 2020 because after seeing Donald in action he decided Trump was a "megalomaniac".  I asked him if he would have voted only on the economy in 2020, who would he have voted for.  He immediately said Trump.  I asked him why.  He said the balance of his retirement account went up a lot under Trump.  Great answer.  So he was better off than four years ago, but despises Trump for being such a complete asshole.  It's not just the economy, stupid, I guess.  I think that family anecdote is a pretty good all purpose explanation for why Trump lost in 2020, and will lose again in 2024. 

So that is the sick joke that MAGA is pulling on themselves.  Which I think explains why Trump is going to lose.  Despite the fact that a Gallup poll says 52 % of Americans think the economy is worse than four years ago. 

Democrats have not changed much.  At no point in the last decade have most Democrats felt particularly good about the economy.  The thing I know about Democrats, especially from my nieces and nephews and tenants, is that this economy works better for the Top 1 % than for the working class.  So you have all these young people, some of whom are my relatives, who are pissed that home prices and interest rates are so high that they can't buy a home.  But that is not a reason to vote for Trump.  A lot of Democrats and Independents who are not fans of the current economy are going to vote for Harris because they will decide to give her a chance, I predict.  Because they saw what Trump did in power and 52 % of Americans say they do not like the man.

Republicans are all over the map in that chart above.  To their credit, they at least kind of noticed when Trump was POTUS and the economy completely went off a cliff in 2020.  But I guess they forget how fucked up everything was, and how many people were out of work.  The math is very simple.  In 2019 60 % of Americans said the Trump economy was good.  Now only 23 % of voters say the Biden/Harris economy is good.  So that means Harris has to lose, right?  

Nope.  All it tells us is that Republicans have a very distorted view of reality.  I will end with one paragraph on objective reality.  Inflation is 2.4 %.  The "misery index" (inflation plus unemployment) was 7.9 % in Nov. 2020.  It is 6.5 % in Sept. 2024. So people are actually BETTER OFF in 2024, if we are measuring inflation, jobs, and objective reality.  The stock market is higher than ever.  If you own a home, like 2 in 3 Americans do, it is worth more than ever.  Net worth went up 30 % in recent years, according to a recent Fed analysis.  Trump's argument is rich, for a billionaire loser:  the economy sucks because your net worth is maybe $100,000 more, but you have to pay maybe $1 more for a gallon of gas.  Boo hoo!  It's a loser's argument.  Which is why he is going to lose.

I really do think this is a sick joke Trump voters are playing on themselves.  I really do feel sorry for them.  Mark Halperin recently argued that those of us who despise Trump will have no clue why he won if he wins.  I disagree.  I think I understand why Trump could win, and I just explained it.  There are working class people who don't own homes or stocks that have had a rough ride under Biden and Harris.  I think this is why she can not and is not declaring victory.  Despite all the objectively good facts I cited above.  Obama had the same problem in 2012, when the economy was improving but people were not feeling it.  Harris does not want to sound elitist and out of touch. 

But the main reality here is that Trump voters have a very distorted view of just how fucked up things are when Trump is not President ..... or dictator.  And they are going to be very disappointed when their asshole leads them to defeat .................. yet again.  Like in 2018.  And 2020. And 2022.   The poor losers keep losing, even though losers don't like to lose.

And I will try hard not to laugh at Trump losers who are simply out of touch.  

[Suckrates]

4 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

In his defense, I don't think he said he can't vote for her.  He said she dodged questions, which she did. 

Baier is a good journalist.  I always like watching him for a sound but right of center take on the news.  So he did a good job of stringing together pretty much every awkward question she has NOT been drilled on.  I suppose he could have added something about whether her hubby Doug was really abusive to women.  But you get the point.  I'll just repeat my argument.  I'm glad he attacked her.  It showed she is tough and she can handle someone going after her and not even letting her finish a sentence.  

Sean Spicer should know something about how Presidents communicate.  His reaction to this was that "Kamala did herself no favors." And she missed the mark in communicating to Fox News viewers.  I disagree.  And it probably shows how even somebody who was a White House Press Secretary sees what he wants to see.  Harris made one argument very well:  lots of conservative Republicans think Trump is toxic and he can't be given power ever again.  If that was her goal, she did her job.  And I think we know a significant slice of Republicans who watch Fox have deep doubts about Trump.

That's the question historians will be asking for as long as the US exists.  You and I agree about Trump.  It's a good question why so many people don't. 

I think @lookin is correct that a necessary part of this is that a lot of people, a significant minority of voters,  just really like an authoritarian leader.  Even if he constantly lies and breaks rules and laws at will. I don't get it.  But MAGA clearly loves it.  This is necessary, but not sufficient, for Trump to win.  I think the sufficient reason Trump could win is basically inflation.  It's technically a non-issue now, since it is down to 2.4 %.  Trump would call that "a perfect number" if he had to defend it.  And if inflation had been 2.4 % for each of the last four years, I think Harris would win handily.  And she obviously can't change the past.  But that is THE issue to me.  And Baier hammered her hard.  You were in power when this happened.  Why did you let this happen?  Are people stupid for not wanting more of that?   They were good questions.  I think she gave good answers and showed exactly why she was an excellent prosecutor of facts.  But it is about the economy, stupid.

Majority of Americans Feel Worse Off Than Four Years Ago

Since part of your argument is that this year "it's the economy, stupid" does not apply this year, I'm going to add several wonky paragraphs about why the economy matters.  I think it is actually worse than you think, @Suckrates.  The MAGA faithful are so cultish and so loyal to Trump that they believe almost any bullshit or filth or lie that comes out of his deceitful mouth.  So they have a completely distorted view of the economy.  Harris would not say these people are stupid on camera.  And most of them are not stupid.  But they do not understand the economy they are living in.  The irony is that Trump lost in 2020 despite the fact that he literally presided over "the best economy" ever, if you believe the poll above.  And Harris is about to win despite presiding over, as Veep, "the worst economy" ever, according to the poll above. 

To me, this thing about how bad the economy sucks right now is kind of a sick joke.  And it is a joke on Trump voters.  They lost in 2020 and are about to lose again.  So we can at least feel sorry for them, since they really have pulled a sick joke on themselves.

That Gallup poll says 52 % of Americans think they and their family are WORSE OFF than four years ago.  That is a stunning number.  And it could easily be taken as the only thing you need to know to explain why Harris will lose.  As @KYTOP pointed out, it is the woman at the grocery store who knows damn well that prices are a lot higher now than when Donald Trump was President.  That is a fact.  This has to mean Harris will lose, right?

Well, maybe not.  Maybe it's not just the economy, stupid.  The same Gallup poll said in 2020 55 % of voters said they and their family were BETTER OFF than four years.  So Trump had to win in 2020, right?  The economy in 2020 was better than any other Presidential election, according to voters in that Gallup poll.  And yet Trump lost.  How did that happen? 

I have a great anecdotal answer.  One of my brothers who loves John McCain voted for Trump in 2016 because he thought he would be better for the economy than Clinton.  He voted for Biden in 2020 because after seeing Donald in action he decided Trump was a "megalomaniac".  I asked him if he would have voted only on the economy in 2020, who would he have voted for.  He immediately said Trump.  I asked him why.  He said the balance of his retirement account went up a lot under Trump.  Great answer.  So he was better off than four years ago, but despises Trump for being such a complete asshole.  It's not just the economy, stupid, I guess.  I think that family anecdote is a pretty good all purpose explanation for why Trump lost in 2020, and will lose again in 2024. 

So that is the sick joke that MAGA is pulling on themselves.  Which I think explains why Trump is going to lose.  Despite the fact that a Gallup poll says 52 % of Americans think the economy is worse than four years ago. 

Democrats have not changed much.  At no point in the last decade have most Democrats felt particularly good about the economy.  The thing I know about Democrats, especially from my nieces and nephews and tenants, is that this economy works better for the Top 1 % than for the working class.  So you have all these young people, some of whom are my relatives, who are pissed that home prices and interest rates are so high that they can't buy a home.  But that is not a reason to vote for Trump.  A lot of Democrats and Independents who are not fans of the current economy are going to vote for Harris because they will decide to give her a chance, I predict.  Because they saw what Trump did in power and 52 % of Americans say they do not like the man.

Republicans are all over the map in that chart above.  To their credit, they at least kind of noticed when Trump was POTUS and the economy completely went off a cliff in 2020.  But I guess they forget how fucked up everything was, and how many people were out of work.  The math is very simple.  In 2019 60 % of Americans said the Trump economy was good.  Now only 23 % of voters say the Biden/Harris economy is good.  So that means Harris has to lose, right?  

Nope.  All it tells us is that Republicans have a very distorted view of reality.  I will end with one paragraph on objective reality.  Inflation is 2.4 %.  The "misery index" (inflation plus unemployment) was 7.9 % in Nov. 2020.  It is 6.5 % in Sept. 2024. So people are actually BETTER OFF in 2024, if we are measuring inflation, jobs, and objective reality.  The stock market is higher than ever.  If you own a home, like 2 in 3 Americans do, it is worth more than ever.  Net worth went up 30 % in recent years, according to a recent Fed analysis.  Trump's argument is rich, for a billionaire loser:  the economy sucks because your net worth is maybe $100,000 more, but you have to pay maybe $1 a more for a gallon of gas.  Boo hoo!  It's a loser's argument.  Which is why he is going to lose.

I really do think this is a sick joke Trump voters are playing on themselves.  I really do feel sorry for them.  Mark Halperin recently argued that those of us who despise Trump will have no clue why he won if he wins.  I disagree.  I think I understand why Trump could win, and I just explained it.  There are working class people who don't own homes or stocks that have had a rough ride under Biden and Harris.  I think this is why she can not and is not declaring victory.  Despite all the objectively good facts I cited above.  Obama had the same problem in 2012, when the economy was improving but people were not feeling it.  Harris does not want to sound elitist and out of touch. 

But the main reality here is that Trump voters have a very distorted view of just how fucked up things are when Trump is not President ..... or dictator.  And they are going to be very disappointed when their asshole leads them to defeat .................. yet again.  Like in 2018.  And 2020. And 2022.   The poor losers keep losing, even they losers don't like to lose.

And I will try hard not to laugh at Trump losers who are simply out of touch.  

@stevenkesslar I respect and appreciate all your comments directed at my quotes, but my point is that all the things YOU mention as "regular folk" concerns about the election should be discarded this time, because NONE of those things will matter if Trump is elected.  The way he intends to address ALL those issues will only worsen things for Americans and the causes targeted.    Once we are safe in our Democracy, then lets talk policy....   since Trump will be too busy deporting and punishing to be able to govern and address economy and healthcare, or anything else for that matter.  Plus with him there is no hope for an overturn of Roe, just a National abortion ban. 

So while I appreciate all your charts and statistics, I call Poppycock on all of it.....Its just useless excuses for why Trump could be a viable choice.  NO BUENO...

[stevenkesslar]

9 hours ago, Suckrates said:

So while I appreciate all your charts and statistics, I call Poppycock on all of it.....Its just useless excuses for why Trump could be a viable choice.  NO BUENO...

Porque?

I partly agree with you.  I think you are and @KYTOP are probably both right.  And I am not just trying to split the difference.

If we are talking about Harris on Fox News, you are probably right.  There is probably not a whole lot she can or should say on policy that warms the hearts of conservatives.  Other than just to point out that Trump is a maniac. Who will for sure slaughter your first born child and turn the others into slaves.  Unless they vote for him and vow fealty to his dictatorship.  Now I ramped that up a bit just for the right dictator vibe.  

That said, I absolutely agree with @KYTOP's point that Kamala better be scared to death about that woman in the grocery store in Pennsylvania.  Who is perfectly willing to listen to, and perhaps believe, any bullshit Trump wants to spin out of his deceitful mouth.  For some strange reason, the old bitch just refuses to believe that Trump is an asshole who will slaughter her first born grandchild.  Who knows why? So we have to deal with her on the level of grocery bills.  Sorry.

So here's a head scratcher for ya.   Even when grocery bills went up under Joe Biden, they still never got as high as they were for most of Trump's Presidency, before COVID.  The old bitch in the grocery store may be forgetting about her Social Security COLA increases.  Why doesn't Harris just tell the old bitch she's wrong?

David Axelrod is funny on this important point.  He went bonkers every time Biden stood next to a "Bidenomics" sign and did happy talk about the good economy.  I think it was seared into Axelrod's soul in 2010 and 2012 that even if the economy is recovering, and there are facts that "prove" it, you don't tell people who don't feel that way they are wrong.  And many Trump voters think that Harris and Biden are maniacs who will slaughter ALL your children.  So they don't cut Kamala any slack on this stuff.  So Axelrod wrote the memo Kamala read about how you have to empathize with people and tell them how you are going to lower costs more.  Did I mention how a child tax credit would really help tens of millions of working class voters, many of whom voted for Trump?

Harris is proving she has been underrated, I think.  She is better than Biden at talking about this stuff, for sure in Biden's current state.  Again, I think Brett helped her by kind of ripping off the facade of the eloquent and diplomatic lawyer.  And exposing us to the Kamala who sat around the kitchen table with her Mom and worried about very mundane things like food.  I like that Kamala.

It also bears pointing out that Kamala is way smarter than Dumb Dumb Donald.  Literally every time she waved bait in front of the dumb old asshole at their debate, Trump took the bait and said really stupid shit.  Brett offered Harris a great opportunity to tell voters who think that high prices or the economy are a problem that they are actually stupid.  She instead pivoted to saying she is the one who gets the concerns of struggling working class families, and people who want to buy homes.  Trump is the one who insults, demeans, and debases people.  And people are sick of it.  She's right.  Trump always has at least 52 % of voters that don't like him for just this reason.  That is why the dumb fuck will lose.

In summary, I am all for the argument that all you need to know about Trump is he will slaughter your first born child.  Period.  But for people who that doesn't work for, I think Harris laid out some other good arguments.

 

 

[stevenkesslar]

 

[Suckrates]

@stevenkesslar Sis, I heard a black hetero couple interviewed that was leaving the polls after early voting in Michigan (I think it was Mi) and they were asked Who they voted for, and they replied TRUMP....  When asked WHY, the woman replied "I dont have a uterus anymore, and my husband doesnt have a uterus so I dont care about the abortion issue, and our life was easier under Trump"      She didnt elaborate on HOW it was better but it showed me the Selfishness of people, only thinking of themselves and not their fellow Americans.  And I still believe that Trump supporters believe that none of his crazy batshit proposals will affect THEM because they SUPPORT him.   Its INSANE

But Trump does make it clear that he is only interested in people that support him, and those that oppose are enemies.  However we know this is gaslighting because he once slipped and told a rally crowd the TRUTH... I ONLY WANT YOUR VOTE.    Of course they never take that seriously.  

The woman sitting at the kitchen table worrying about her groceries need to get the fuck UP , listen and worry about her Freedoms and think about a country ruled by a dictator.   There are reasons that millions of people around the world hold uprisings against dictatorial govt and leaders, forcing many out of power.   Its no fun living in an autocratic country. 

[stevenkesslar]

1 hour ago, Suckrates said:

And I still believe that Trump supporters believe that none of his crazy batshit proposals will affect THEM because they SUPPORT him.   Its INSANE

Well, Sis, I think you should like this ad.

So I will make a bunch of comments that borrow heavily from three very smart people I respect:  Mark Halperin, David Plouffe, and Michael Moore.

Halperin and his merry bipartisan band talked a lot about this ad on his 2Way and evaluated whether it makes a good "closing argument" for her campaign.  Halperin basically gave it a thumbs up.  Even Sean Spicer agreed it is a good ad.  

The point Halperin stressed is that it connects two things:  the more abstract worries Biden went off on, and YOU are focused on, Sis. Dictatorship, unhinged, unchecked.  But for a 30 second ad Halperin argued it did a great job of tying in what the concrete impact of an unhinged ME ME ME guy like Trump will be on YOU. He will fuck with your right to abortion.  How do we know this?  Because he fucked with your right to abortion already.  He will shower tax cuts on billionaires who put the sick old ME ME ME fuck in power, to shower money on them. How do we know this?  He did it once already. You are a deficit hawk, like me?  The sick old ME ME ME dumb fuck will blow up the deficit again, just like he did already.  It is all ME ME ME.  And he will fuck with YOU YOU YOU in very concrete ways.   How many times did the sick old fuck try to fuck with your health care, by the way? These are all simply facts.  

I agree with Halperin.  The number thrown around a lot for the actual undecided vote is usually something like 4 % of all voters.  I think it is probably true for THAT group that Harris is never going to win a contest of who they like better.  She can and will win a contest of who they dislike most:  Trump.  This has been true literally every day since 2017, when at least 52 % of Americans, on average, say they do not favor Trump.  So it seems well tested that her path to victory is she has to close the deal on why Trump can not be trusted.  But I think Halperin is right that it has to be tied to what actual impact that has on your day to day life.  As that woman in Michigan you cited said, she doesn't have a uterus.  She cares about grocery bills.  So Harris better be talking about that.  And in this ad, she is. 

Speaking of Michigan, and with all due respect to Alan Lichtman, Michael Moore has done a pretty good job of calling elections recently.  He famously was going ape shit in 2016 about how Trump was going to win Michigan.  He was right.  In 2020 he said Biden would win.  He was right.  In 2022 he threw cold water on the idea of this huge red wave.  He was right.  Now he is saying Harris is going to win, and he does not think it will be close.

The three word expression I have been using for why Harris could lose is "wall of lava".  The context is that came from a very smart Never Trump Republican who said higher prices and inflation are a "wall of lava" coming at Harris.  He did not argue it would be fatal.  He argued it had to be taken very seriously.  And, no, voters are not going to bother researching this shit on the internet.  They will hear shit Trump says about how prices will be lower under him and buy the bullshit.  So what Moore is presenting as an alternative is a "wall of women" who will have Harris's back.  Moore never seems to have any particularly objective method for making these predictions.  So maybe he is full of shit.  But his whole career suggests he is particularly good at reading what working class people in states like Michigan really care about.  So he is probably right.  Harris will win, and we can thank women for that.  And The Gays helped, of course.  😉

Speaking of being particularly objective, this podcast interview of David Plouffe with one of his former Obama Admin partners in crime is both disconcerting, and relieving.  

For purposes of my comments on this, I am going to assume that this is NOT spin.  This is Plouffe the expert mechanic talking inside ball game to another expert mechanic.

The disconcerting thing Plouffe says is that Trump will win 48 or even 48.5 % of the vote.  That is scary.  But he also says Harris has a slightly higher ceiling, which seems objectively true.  Again, there is no day since 2017 when Trump did not have 52 % of America against him.  My read of his language is that Plouffe thinks Harris could win a very close race where nationally she has maybe a 2 % lead, like in the current polls.  He says their own polls show every one of these seven states is a toss up.  And anyone who says either Trump or Harris have any of them in the bag is full of shit or spin.

To me the math that is most likely to work out in the end is pretty simple:  52 % of America does not favor Trump, and never has.  Right now 47 % of America does not favor Harris.  So they have to make sure 52 % of America is scared shitless about Trump, as YOU are suggesting.  And then they have to battle that out state by state in the swing states.

Plouffe said some other things that I found humble, disciplined, and perhaps revealing of why Harris id favored to win.  He said turnout is the most difficult part of an election to predict.  No shit!  I am pretty sure that I have heard his former Obama partner in crime David Axelrod say on national TV that an exceptional ground game can not win a 55/45 election, but it can shift a close race by a few points.  Axelrod is basically a message guy, not a mechanic.  Plouffe is the mechanic.  So it is interesting that Plouffe said a great ground game gets you half a point, or maybe a point.  But he of course pointed out that in this close a race, that could determine who actually wins in any of these swing states.

So I think that is the October surprise we will not learn about until November.  It is October.   And what is happening with turnout is being shaped by these ground games right now.  And Plouffe confirms from deep inside the Harris campaign that they are running a massive and disciplined ground game that simply does not compare to Trump's "hire a paid canvasser" farmed out ground game.  I'll repeat what I posted above.  Harris has a big team of paid staff working on Latino outreach in Pennsylvania.  Trump has one paid staff.  That is going to make a difference.

In the end, what Plouffe, the expert mechanic, is saying reinforces Moore's gut instinct.  It is entirely plausible that a wall of women could vote and elect our first woman President.  If I had to add a second factor, it would be young voters.  They made the difference in both 2020 and 2022.  And they were not big fans of old Joe Biden.  So whatever flaws Harris has, putting her at the top of the ticket beyond doubt lit a massive fucking fire under the two groups most important to actually getting her elected.

I think the ad above will work. You're right, Sis.  Donald Trump is a sick old fuck who has proven again and again why he should never be given power again.  And a majority of Americans are ready to buy that, Plouffe argues.  I hope he is right.

[stevenkesslar]

Sorry.  I know I am in filibuster mode.  But there is one other thing Plouffe said in that podcast above, several times, that reinforces the thing nobody really knows shit about that could swing the election.  

Trump's poll numbers are based on the idea that the people who are least reliable in actually voting will turn out and vote for Trump.  That has been clear in polls for months.  If the only people who vote are the most reliable voters, Harris wins.  If the only people who vote are the least reliable voters, Trump wins. This ties directly to your point, @Suckrates.  By definition, the least reliable voters are also the least informed ones, who will buy pretty much any bullshit Trump says.  Don't count on them to check into what economists say about the impact of Trump's tax cuts to billionaires on the deficit.

There is good reason to be scared shitless of an army of MAGA folk turning out to vote.  Including all these extremely wobbly wheels hitched loosely to the Trump bandwagon.  Then again, Plouffe knows better than almost anyone in America that this is not how you win a disciplined and effective campaign.  It could all fall apart when people who are for Trump because, "FUck, dude, like Hulk Hogan is for MY MAN. FucK YeaH Dude!  FUCK!" simply don't manage to vote.

Ignorant Trump non-voters who maybe will or won't actually vote for the sick old fuck who wants to be dictator probably have NO FUCKING CLUE who Peter Navarro is.  They care about Hulk Hogan, not trade policy.  So I am 100 % sure they are not going to read this potential death sentence to Trump's bullshit that Navarro just stated on Politico:

Quote

At this point, this race will come down to precinct-by-precinct trench warfare and historically, the Democrat Party has simply done a better job getting their voters to the polls. We in Trump Land have to assume they are getting that right again and must sound the alarm and work accordingly.

In fairness, this is not the stuff that Bob Woodward or Rachel Maddow really give a shit about.  Joe Scarborough gets it more than most, since he knows what it means to actually run and win a campaign.  It could very well determine the outcome.  And even a policy wonk like Navarro knows it.  They have to be scared shitless.

I disagree with Navarro, for sure about 2020 and maybe about 2016.  In 2020 there is no question that Trump, as incumbent POTUS, had the paid and free resources to blast his message everywhere and build a massive turnout machine that apparently made the election closer than the polls seemed to show.  Meanwhile, lots of Democrats have said that - thanks to COVID - aggressive Republicans outorganized timid Democrats wearing masks all over America.  2016 is less certain.  But I think history is forming around the idea that Clinton ran a relatively weak and uninspiring campaign that was crippled by a split in the party that never healed. Whereas Trump did have the enthusiasm of an upstart  grassroots movement behind him.

So I think Navarro is right about the trench warfare.  And what he says about the Democratic Party getting voters to the polls is likely to be more true than ever in 2024. Unlike 2016, every fucking Democrat who can breath is totally focused on why Trump should not be President again.

We'll know soon.  If you believe Michael Moore, he can smell it in the air already.

[stevenkesslar]

On 10/18/2024 at 9:44 PM, KYTOP said:

Constant vote for me because I call Trump every bad, evil thing that can be thought of, just might not work. And she needs to realize that real Damn quick before she loses. When people go to the Grocery and are reminded how much groceries have gone up in 3 years, she needs to give some answers. I saw on CNN a few months back during the primaries the reporter outside a polling place talked to people after they had voted. The reporter reminded a lady that inflation was cooling. She replied "I don't know whose wallet they are looking at, it sure ain't mine."

I know we have beaten this to death.  But in my mind it's worth beating to death for exactly the reason you say.  We agree that Harris needs to talk about the economy, and grocery prices, if she wants to win the election.  She is.  She can not tell the woman in the grocery store she is wrong about inflation-adjusted prices.  Even though I posted perfectly good data above that the woman is wrong.  It actually took slightly fewer hours of work to buy the same bag of groceries under Joe Biden's term on average.   

 

Republican pollster Greg Stimple has an interesting and data-tested response to your point in that hour long discussion, which is worth a watch.  He says it's a no brainer.  Of course Harris SHOULD NOT be talking about the economy.  Because when she is, she is losing.  Of course she SHOULD be talking about how unhinged Trump is, and how that makes him a weak leader both in America and the world.  I know that is not what you would want to hear.  But this is a prominent Republican pollster who does work for the independent and very thoughtful Cook Political Report telling Harris what she should do if she wants to win.

Stimple has two good arguments.

Harris won the debate becase she attacked Trump, hard, and looked tougher and smarter than him.  She was on a roll for all September.  Stimple says Harris should have stayed on that track, because it was working.  When the campaign shifting to talking about her "opportunity economy", her momentum stalled.  So we have actually seen this difference in strategy play out in real time.

Stimple explains why.  In a sense, most undecided voters are NOT undecided.  He says there is a group of them that is like 4 % of voters, who are predominantly Independents and do not identify with either party.  If they vote on the economy, they are basically decided.  They will vote for Trump.  If they vote on Trump's character and leadership, meaning what a horrible leader he was that they really don't want four more years of, they will vote for Harris.  He says it was a strategic error for Harris to take the spotlight off Trump and put it on the economy.  He has data to back it up. 

Interestingly, he says there is a smaller group - 1 to 2 % - who are voting for third party candidates who also lean slightly (57 %) to Trump on economic issues but, again, can't stand the guy and won't vote for him.

This is incredibly easy for me to buy.  Almost every day Mark Halperin's 2Way has these interesting discussions with real swing voters who face exactly this choice.  There are different flavors of it.  But they don't understand or like Harris on the economy, and they don't like Trump for being Trump.  I just mentioned again in a different post I have a conservative brother who did vote for Trump in 2016, because he thought he would be better for the economy.   If he voted only on the economy in 2020, he told me he would have voted for Trump.  But he voted for Biden in 2020 and will vote for Harris in 2024 because he thinks Trump is a "megalomaniac".

I should end here, but I will of course make a few more points about this interview.  To me it is a perfect example of the idea that Republicans see campaigns as a knife fight, which Democrats bring a pillow to.  One clear example.  Steve Schmidt asks both pollsters whether Harris picking Walz was a mistake.  Republican Stimple answers quickly and concisely:  "Yes, it moved her to the left."  Which is what a lot of Democrats will say if Harris loses.  Why not Shapiro? Why not Beshear?  Democrat Toomey gave this long winded and thoughtful answer, like what I would post here.  Which is not to say he is wrong.  Toomey polled for the Obama White House.  But Stimple polled for Governor races like Rick Perry.  And you just know he is all about finding a good and simple attack line and repeating it 1 million times:  "Harris is too liberal, and Walz is, too."

That said, the flaw in this strategy is that since she was chosen Republicans have been savaging Harris for being too liberal, including on the economy.  And it is not clear it is working.  I think all sides agree that her "opportunity economy" proposals have actually moved the needle.  Here is pollster Mark Penn saying it in a new WSJ article.   He applauds Harris for putting ideas on the economy voters like out there.  Whereas Trump mostly just says weird shit.  Although he has had some swing state-targeted ideas like "no tax on tips" in Nevada.   I posted a recent interview of David Plouffe where he said Harris has significantly closed the gap on the economy with Trump.  And in some key groups - like women - they trust Harris more than Trump on the economy.  So Toomey's more complex and textured answers are actually working, mostly.

In that WSJ article, based on his October Harvard/Harris poll, Penn says Harris "only" has a 4 point deficit with Trump on the economy with ALL voters.  I actually think that is good news.  I looked at the crosstabs and 36 % of his polling base is Republican.  As I have documented on other threads, this Republican Trump voter group is extremely black and white:  80 % thought the Trump economy is good, and 10 % think the Biden economy is good. 

Democrats actually appear more fact-based.  At no point during four years of the "tax cuts for billionaires" economy of Trump or the "COVID shut down and inflation" economy of Biden did 50 % of Democrats say either economy was good.  My point is that, statistically, having a poll where 36 % of voters are Republicans who mostly despise anything Harris says on the economy is going to skew the outcome.  I have to guess that means that if you only poll the other 64 %, who are the voters who are probably going to consider voting for Harris, she would actually be trusted more than Trump on the economy.  Penn's past polls sometimes have crosstabs that tell you what Independents think, but this specific poll does not.  But if Plouffe is telling the truth her messages on the economy have been gradually working with the groups of voters she needs.

So this has been a Toomey-like post.  But I will close like Stimple and make it black and white.  Kamala SHOULD NOT be talking about the economy if she wants to win, mostly.  She should be talking about how Trump is unhinged and unworthy of ever leading again.  That is what actual undecided voters think.  And that is what she has to reinforce in them.  And that is what smart Republican pollsters and wizards like Steve Schmidt are saying.

 

 

[EmmetK]

On 10/20/2024 at 9:50 AM, Suckrates said:

@stevenkesslar Sis, I heard a black hetero couple interviewed that was leaving the polls after early voting in Michigan (I think it was Mi) and they were asked Who they voted for, and they replied TRUMP....  When asked WHY, the woman replied "I dont have a uterus anymore, and my husband doesnt have a uterus so I dont care about the abortion issue, and our life was easier under Trump"      She didnt elaborate on HOW it was better but it showed me the Selfishness of people, only thinking of themselves and not their fellow Americans.  And I still believe that Trump supporters believe that none of his crazy batshit proposals will affect THEM because they SUPPORT him.   Its INSANE

But Trump does make it clear that he is only interested in people that support him, and those that oppose are enemies.  However we know this is gaslighting because he once slipped and told a rally crowd the TRUTH... I ONLY WANT YOUR VOTE.    Of course they never take that seriously.  

The woman sitting at the kitchen table worrying about her groceries need to get the fuck UP , listen and worry about her Freedoms and think about a country ruled by a dictator.   There are reasons that millions of people around the world hold uprisings against dictatorial govt and leaders, forcing many out of power.   Its no fun living in an autocratic country. 

.

Americans LOVE Trump's policies. They HATE Kamala's policies. Period.
Americans are against defunding the Police, Americans are against using taxpayer funds to pay for sex change operations for transgender inmates, Americans are against wide open borders that have allowed tens of millions of illegals to cross the border, including sex traffickers, murderers, drug dealers and gang members. Cackling Kamala is on record in favor of all of these.
Period.

All you have is that Trump is a bad man. His policies are popular. That is why he will be the next President.

TRUMP 2024
MAGA

[Suckrates]

1 minute ago, EmmetK said:

Americans LOVE Trump's policies. They HATE Kamala's policies. Period.
Americans are against defunding the Police, Americans are against using taxpayer funds to pay for sex change operations for transgender inmates, Americans are against wide open borders that have allowed tens of millions of illegals to cross the border, including sex traffickers, murderers, drug dealers and gang members. Cackling Kamala is on record in favor of all of these.
Period.

All you have is that Trump is a bad man. His policies are popular. That is why he will be the next President.

TRUMP 2024
MAGA

 

To steal your talking point,  TRUMP had 4 years to do and fix ALL those things but did Nothing.  The chances of him doing anything about any of it this time around are Less than zero.  He is not a competent leader,  does not know how to govern, and is in mental and physical and mental decline.  HE JUST WANTS TO STAY OUT OF PRISON, and rip-off Americans.  And those people that are loyal to the core and support this IMPOSTER will learn very quickly they were DUPED.   As Trump said at his rally, "I JUST WANT YOUR VOTE".

[stevenkesslar]

3 minutes ago, EmmetK said:

Americans LOVE Trump's policies. They HATE Kamala's policies. Period.

He is an unhinged nut with psychological and mental problems.  This is not my theory, or what Democrats say.  This is what pollsters like Republican Stimple who work for Cook Political Report say about how undecided voters feel, and why they will not commit to Trump.  These are well documented objective facts.

How is this documented?  Simple.  MAGA lost in 2018.  MAGA lost in 2020.  MAGA lost in 2022.  MAGA lost in 2023.  MAGA has lost several times in 2024.  Whenever Trump and MAGA touch someone with a relatively pure MAGA heart, like Kari Lake, it is as if they are saying,   "Turn to shit.  Turn to shit.  Turn to shit."  And she does. I mean, what will it take to elect a Republican Senator in Arizona or Georgia again?  Duh!  You have to get rid of Trump.  Just ask McConnell, who knows Trump is a despicable human being. But MAGA would rather have their unhinged nut. Not my problem.

So it does suck bad for you, my friend.  Trump and DJT will tank at the same time.  Double loss.  Can't say I didn't warn ya.

[stevenkesslar]

10 minutes ago, Suckrates said:

TRUMP had 4 years to do and fix ALL those things but did Nothing.

Sorry, have to vouch for the clown on this.

Trump did a great job of cutting taxes for himself and his rich donors.  Meanwhile, factory jobs went away.  Meanwhile, he blew up the deficit, and will happily do so again.

Turn presided over an incredible spike in murders, drug overdoses, and the sale of guns - all related to policies that most Americans want changed.  Harris stands for law and order.  Trump is a felon.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

Trump tried to cut Obamacare and take our health care rights away.

 

Sorry.  Ran out of space.  But he actually tried it more times than that.

John McCain was a hero.  Donald Trump is a loser.

[Bingo T Dog]

1 hour ago, EmmetK said:

All you have is that Trump is a bad man. His policies are popular. That is why he will be the next President.

Then why did he LOSE in 2020?  PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stevenkesslar]

3 hours ago, EmmetK said:

 

TRUMP 2024
MAGA

THIS IS WHY TRUMP WILL NOT BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT

[Suckrates]

3 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

THIS IS WHY TRUMP WILL NOT BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT

 

OR, it will be the reasons that he IS........It seems to be what America has become, and what Americans want.....