Original twilight bar bangkok

[Guest fountainhall]

but we British cannot be blamed for such attitudes in Thailand?

I am not sure of the point of your question. I was replying specifically to macaroni21's question by highlighting historical attitudes to nudity in certain Asian countries. Since Thailand was never colonised, I cannot see how the British or any other nation can be blamed for any shyness regarding nudity here! Indeed, historically I do think there was a major difference between Thai culture and that of China, Korea and Japan in relation to attitudes towards nudity.

 

That first part of my reply did not actually relate to nudity in bars.

 

I certainly hope there might be enough young men willing to dance in bars today as they did in the old Twilight. As has already been discussed, however, if it is merely the law restraining bar owners from organising such activities, how is it that far more overt and sexually based shows remain tolerated?

[bkkguy]

This thread made me reread the book "Bangkok Boy..The story of a stolen childhood". It tells the story of a guy who starts working at a bar in the...I guess..early 90ies....I highly recommend this book bec. it gives a look at the other "side of the coin"....

 

while the story may have been ghost-written based at least minimally on a real character still regularly seen in Soi Twilight, this whole "stolen childhood" crap is just a sensationalist way of selling the book. as a mid-teen he was invited to a teacher's house and everyone in the whole school knew that meant sex but he went willingly because he wanted the money to pay off his gambling and drinking debts. he stole his own childhood and moved to bangkok to sell his body and repeatedly ended up in the same situation for the same self-inflicted reasons - or is that the "other side of the coin" you are referring to?

 

bkkguy

[Guest]

As has already been discussed, however, if it is merely the law restraining bar owners from organising such activities, how is it that far more overt and sexually based shows remain tolerated?

 

My sample size is not so large, but the more successful such shows tend to draw good crowds. Therefore perhaps they generate sufficient revenue to grease a few palms?

[Guest phoochaai]

This thread made me reread the book "Bangkok Boy..The story of a stolen childhood".......

I'm sorry, but this argumentation regarding nudity in go-go bars is absurd.

We are talking about nude dancing of males who are major of age and who, as grown-up men, make their own decision about whether they want to show their naked bodies for money or not.

Young men in developing countries who are forced to work, say, in a quarry or a dangerous coal mine are hardly better off than young men (of at least 18 years of age) who have come to the conclusion that showing their dick and at the same time earning some good money is the best option they have.

It goes without saying, that nobody should be forced to dance nude. And I'd even go as far as to agree on references to potential risks for the young men's emotional health (like the references to health risks on cigarette packets) before someone starts his 'career' as a nude dancer in a go-go bar.

Under all these circumstances, I'm afraid to put it as bluntly as that, the argument of alleged 'stolen childhood' is simply groundless and absurd.

[Guest]

I'm all for freedom of choice. If people choose to take their clothes off in a suitably designated bar, that should be their choice.

 

Also, whilst there may no longer be nude bars in Bangkok, we are very lucky to be living in an era when for a few hours work, it is possible to fly half way around the world and watch cute guys dancing in their underwear. Then they can be offed for a modest charge.

Such travel was not possible 100 years ago and I suspect oil prices may make it prohibitively expensive in 100 years time.

[pong]

while this is quite off-subject of the thread, but re the point of the Malays and public nudity. I think this is (well, at least for the Malay-Malays, muslim etc.) more similar to the Indonesians (which are for more as just Bali)-they bathed in the rivers (kali) and also when going to the beach, this was with a sarong on. Men and ladies had different spots as to where they would bathe-even married couples.

In private though, Indonesians are not very shy to undress, generally.

[Guest fountainhall]

re the point of the Malays and public nudity. I think this is (well, at least for the Malay-Malays, muslim etc.) more similar to the Indonesians (which are for more as just Bali)-they bathed in the rivers (kali) and also when going to the beach, this was with a sarong on.

I had forgotten to mention the Islamic religious teachings which I believe frown on any form of public nudity. This would affect many Malays and most Indonesians, apart from the Balinese who practice their own brand of Hinduism.

[Guest lonelywombat]

I had a PM to suggest this is too much in the BKK past and too Pattaya related recently.

 

Apart from Jupiters I rarely get to many bars in BKK. Most of the time I am catching up with friends over dinner.

 

However for my next trip soon, it would be helpful to get an update on what bars include nudity, but not the all out fuck shows.

 

What bars have sex shows and which bars have the artificially enhanced cocks pretending to be real.

[Guest Thor69]

Spending many an evening at Twilight you would see guys parade across the raised area fully nude. The best part of that bar was the large number of boys employed. There were all types and most were very good looking. After Twilight closed I would enjoy Barbiery on Suriwong Road. They also had a nice and quite large choice of boys to off. When Barbiery moved to their new building on the same street as Mango Tree restaurant they didn't seem to attract as many customers. They finally moved back to Suriwong Road and did a great job until they closed up shop. Barbiery had nice waiters and no pushy mamasans. Quite different than the bars in Soi Twilight that are there now as these bars seem to have those mamasans that try push boys on you and beg you to purchase drinks for them. It wouldn't be so bad if the mamasans actually offered you a boy that would perform for you as you'd like.

 

Super Lex was a nice go go bar and Lex Matsuda offered a guarantee that if the boy didn't live up to your expectations you could return and choose another at no charge. He had some very nice looking boys and in his establishment they all could do whatever it takes to make you happy.

 

I think we all have fond memories of the old days because they were much better than what is available today. If there ever is a go go bar that is like the ones we remember I am almost certain that we all would go there and spend lots of money.

 

In recent times the bars have become mundane and the boys employed are not as attractive and don't seem to perform as well as those we remember in the good old days.

 

You would think with all the competition from the internet and the sheer number of bars now they all would try harder but they don't seem to bother.

[macaroni21]

I had a PM to suggest this is too much in the BKK past and too Pattaya related recently.

 

Eh? The very title of this thread indicates it is meant to be about nostalgia. And as far as I can see, we've not been talking about Pattaya. Very strange.

 

However for my next trip soon, it would be helpful to get an update on what bars include nudity, but not the all out fuck shows.

 

I think you may have to stick to Jupiter. I may be wrong since things change rapidly, but all the other bars can't seem to go nude without going into fuck mode. It's called obsessive-compulsive behaviour, I believe of which I have some experience.

[macaroni21]

You would think with all the competition from the internet and the sheer number of bars now they all would try harder but they don't seem to bother.

 

As I suggested on a different thread recently, most gogo bars in Bangkok are manifestations of rent-seeking behaviour of well-connected officials. They are not exemplars of entrepreneurship. Don't hold your breath expecting them to think or act like businessmen in service industries. They don't know the first thing (nor are they even aware that they don't know) about marketing, brand building, customer satisfaction, cost/benefit analysis (e.g. the mamasan issue) and any number of Business 101's.

[Guest phoochaai]

I think we all have fond memories of the old days because they were much better than what is available today. If there ever is a go go bar that is like the ones we remember I am almost certain that we all would go there and spend lots of money.

 

I do have fond memories of the good old days too but, that said, I wouldn't say things were much better back then - they were just different. There's a couple of things I miss and there are other things I'm glad they have changed. E.g. I do miss the nude dancing of the old Twilight bar, but I don't miss the bars full of cigarette smoke.

 

I'm pretty sure that, if word spreads about farangs preferring unpretentious nude dancing to raunchy f*** shows, this format will - sooner or later - be on offer. It's all about supply and demand. If there's quite a number of farangs who are prepared to pay a bit more for the sight of aesthetic nude dancing, there will be such a venue. Even if nude dancing is technically against the law - it's just a matter of how much tea money is needed to make the authorities turn a blind eye. Having said that, I'm not in favour of anything goes against the law, there are such things as the abuse of dangerous drugs and sex with minors of age that should not be condoned - under no circumstances! But let's be realistic: nude dancing does not harm anyone. Even if it's - for whatever reason - against the law in some country, it's certainly not to be regarded a a major crime!

[Guest finally]

while the story may have been ghost-written based at least minimally on a real character still regularly seen in Soi Twilight, this whole "stolen childhood" crap is just a sensationalist way of selling the book. as a mid-teen he was invited to a teacher's house and everyone in the whole school knew that meant sex but he went willingly because he wanted the money to pay off his gambling and drinking debts. he stole his own childhood and moved to bangkok to sell his body and repeatedly ended up in the same situation for the same self-inflicted reasons - or is that the "other side of the coin" you are referring to?

bkkguy ...seems that it is ok for you when a teacher has sex with his 14y old student as long as this student comes "willingly " to his house...at least that s what can be read between your lines. Don t want to discuss the book with you bec. either you have not read it or you have not understood.

[Guest phoochaai]

bkkguy ...seems that it is ok for you when a teacher has sex with his 14y old student as long as this student comes "willingly " to his house...at least that s what can be read between your lines.

 

I assume that everyone who posts here in this forum is clearly again sex with underage boys. Therefore I deem it useless to discuss such an issue. What I deem completely unacceptable, though, is accusing someone of approving of sex with minors. I have not read the book quoted in a previous post, but bkkguy's comments on it, whether he has read the book or not, do not support the conclusion of his condoning sex with minors.

 

This thread has been started with a discussion about the 'good old' Twilight bar in BKK where all guys were clearly above the age of consent and where nude dancing could be seen in the late night hours - something legal in bars with a special license until the mid 1990s.

 

I'm wondering whether a bar with handsome men dancing totally nude is a format that posters in this forum would support and patronize? And would they be prepared to pay more for the drinks if there's nude dancing inside the bar?

[Guest lonelywombat]

Eh? The very title of this thread indicates it is meant to be about nostalgia. And as far as I can see, we've not been talking about Pattaya. Very strange.

 

 

 

I think you may have to stick to Jupiter. I may be wrong since things change rapidly, but all the other bars can't seem to go nude without going into fuck mode. It's called obsessive-compulsive behaviour, I believe of which I have some experience.

 

I hope the recent mentions of underage dont take this thread off topic. Please dont derail this thread.

 

 

Classic was mentioned as a favourite . From memory it was seedy and had a swimming show. OK Jupiter seems to be number 1 choice But second third???

 

In a email from an expat in BKK he asked for comment on this article in a pink guide to BKK. In 20 years I have only been 2 or 3 times in total to Sukhumvit. It surprises me there are gay bars there and as I have heard stories about raunchy Soi Cowboy, I wonder what they are like.

 

"There are a good number of gay go-go bars in the Sukhumvit area of Bangkok. On Soi 7 there is the Man

[Guest fountainhall]

I'm wondering whether a bar with handsome men dancing totally nude is a format that posters in this forum would support and patronize? And would they be prepared to pay more for the drinks if there's nude dancing inside the bar?

Yes - and yes!

[macaroni21]

I'm wondering whether a bar with handsome men dancing totally nude is a format that posters in this forum would support and patronize? And would they be prepared to pay more for the drinks if there's nude dancing inside the bar?

 

1. The use of the word "handsome" is problematic. You will have a hard time pleasing all or even most customers.

 

2. I have a feeling that dancing nude all night won't work. There is too much exposure. It loses the tease element.

 

3. Why should drinks be priced more? If one gets a formula right, the volume of customers will be more than enough to beat the competition.

[Guest lonelywombat]

I think the idea of dancing totally naked all night would have its disadvantages. You dont want customers sitting round all night drinking only a glass ot two, you need to have the dancers in short bursts . Turning the patrons over or keeping the till moving are still necessary for any bar.

 

It is all very well to say you will pay extra but what is another 50baht on a single glass that is nursed all night. I remember having an expat pointed out to me in Sunee,who made one beer last 2 hours and he bragged about it.

 

Perhaps a compromise. A series of boys coming on singly, clothed and slowly undressing. Maybe when they get to their whiteys

another boy comes on with the water sprayer bottle and gradually wets the undies to almost see through but not naked.

 

I am thinking of tea money that can be avoided and this idea would be suitable for smaller bars.I d be prepared to pay the boy 200/300 to do the spraying or if they called for tips to encourage the wetting, offer a tip in advance.

 

I rarely off a boy I have seen JO' ing in a bar. I used to as a newby, but now I like some tease.

 

I still like the shower shows , solo not two boys having sex in the shower.

[Guest fountainhall]

I think the idea of dancing totally naked all night would have its disadvantages.

I agree this would end up being boring. Even Twilight restricted the length of the totally naked dance section. And I am sure we all have our different ideas of what would make the best type of 'production'. For me, the old Twilight model would be fine, with a bit of tweaking. But I also like macaroni21's new ideas highlighted much earlier in this thread. Perhaps there could be room for both, if only some enterprising owners would give them a try.

[bkkguy]

bkkguy ...seems that it is ok for you when a teacher has sex with his 14y old student as long as this student comes "willingly " to his house...at least that s what can be read between your lines. Don t want to discuss the book with you bec. either you have not read it or you have not understood.

 

as was obvious to others, nothing in my comment related to my approval or otherwise of the teacher's actions - you are not just reading between the lines you are making it up as you go along, as were the publishers when they wrote the front and back covers of the book

 

in the story, by the age of 14 Chai was already a problem child that could not be controlled by his guardians - he ran with a bad pack at school, he was a drinker and a gambler and needed money to pay his gambling debts so he decided to have sex with the teacher to get the money

 

you claim I don't understand the book, so with your greater knowledge and understanding explain to me how the publishers manage to convert this story into "Bangkok Boy is a heart-rending account of a childhood lost to sexual abuse. Chai was a normal boy until he was molested by a school teacher" to quote from the back cover of the book

 

the story does contain some insights into why some guys end up in Soi Twilight, and some of their experiences there - he has a girlfriend (who works in a straight go-go bar) and kids who he is not good at providing support for, he has problems with gambling and drink etc - but they are not the insights that you, or the sensationalist publishers, seem to want to focus on!

 

I have many fond memories of Twilight Bar in the early days, but those memories do not in any way prompt me to re-read or promote this over-hyped book

 

bkkguy

[Guest phoochaai]

For me, the old Twilight model would be fine, with a bit of tweaking. But I also like macaroni21's new ideas highlighted much earlier in this thread. Perhaps there could be room for both, if only some enterprising owners would give them a try.

 

As a matter of fact, you're right guys, what made the old Twilight bar special and very appealing was its format of starting off with ordinary go-go dancing, i.e. guys in their underpants, and then - after one or two hours - seguing into fully nude dancing. Instead of the usual show elements that aren't performed continuously the whole night, either, one could simply replace them by some appealing nude dancing every now and then.

 

When it comes to the comment of another poster, that 'handsome' guys would be something that's in the eye of the beholder and that it might be difficult to find a bunch of guys that pleases all tastes, I'll just refer to the fact that this is a 'problem' in any venue you visit. The best policy in that case would be to make sure that there are different guys in terms of build and figure (and dick)...

 

In one word: just replace all these deadly dull lip sync routines by nude dancing every once in a while and we're all much better off!!!

[Guest fountainhall]

In all the discussion about go-go bars and what we feel was great about them 30 years ago and not so great now, I started wondering when the go-go bar scene started – and why. We know that brothels have been part of Thai culture for centuries, as has a tolerance of other people and their sexuality. But we also know that Thailand is a deeply conservative country where what is not seen can be tolerated, but what is openly available must conform to much more rigid social norms.

 

From the little I have been able to piece together, four factors contributed to the development of bars in general and go-go bars in particular. The first is Bangkok’s status and location as a major deep-water port city. As world trade boomed after the Second World War, a number of infamous bars opened up in the city’s port area. These bars in Klong Toey appear not to have involved go-go dancing, but just about everything else.

 

Two other factors seemed to go hand in hand. The first was the Vietnam War. For years, hundreds and thousands of GIs swarmed to Thailand on their R&R breaks eager to taste the exotic fruits of Asia. At the same time, as macaroni21 has often mentioned, many government and other senior officials became involved in the provision of a trade that is effectively prostitution, but which cannot be called as such under a law passed in 1960. Indeed, the present so-called godfather of prostitution in the country, Chuwit Kamolvisit, was elected to the Thai House of Representatives and also ran, unsuccessfully, for Bangkok Governor.

 

Perhaps it was the involvement of political and society figures that ensured the GI’s did not throng to the existing Klong Toey bars. Presumably an opportunity to generate massive profits was identified, and so people like the Patponganich family started to develop the Patpong district, and others developed what became known as Soi Cowboy

 

The fourth reason is obvious – poverty. Had there not been many hundreds of thousands of citizens living on the breadline, it must surely be doubtful that there would have been a ready supply of young women and men to become the mainstay of the industry that is continuously replenished.

 

So, the history of the go-go bar industry appears to be relatively short. Although the law is obscure –

 

defines prostitution as any act done to gratify the sexual desire of another in exchange for money or any other benefit, but only if it is done “in a promiscuous manner”. The Prostitution Law does not define what exactly a “promiscuous manner” constitutes, and the act of prostitution by itself is not outlawed anymore, while solicitation is. The crime of solicitation is vaguely defined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Thailand

 

- defining go-go bars as places of entertainment rather nicely assures some sort of compliance.

 

Given the very conservative nature of the vast majority of Thais, the vagueness of the law and the ultimate ownership of many of the bars, it is, as macaroni21 has again identified, not surprising that change is unlikely to happen. And yet, surely there has to be way of opening up a bar or two somewhere in Bangkok which can satisfy the law, not piss off existing owners who belong to the governing/social elite, and yet provide the sort of entertainment that many posters and readers of this thread would pay to attend? Zoning regulations mean it/they would have to be in certain locations. But are there not plenty of nightlife zones in or near the centre of the city where such bars would not interfere with existing owners and operators?

[Guest lonelywombat]

I have often wondered the involvement of the person who owns the house at the end of soi 4, who reserves the right to drive his car in and out whenever he pleases. Many years ago I was there on NY eve and he did it that night when the soi was packed..

 

Obviously someone owns soi 4. I have never thought about who.

 

Fountainhall in the previous post mentioned families.Are each soi [2,4,6] owned by one family or families similar to Mrs Sunee in Pattaya. Are they just landlords or more involved.

 

It poses the question who own the two sides of Patpong?

[Guest fountainhall]

Are they just landlords or more involved.

It poses the question who own the two sides of Patpong?

All I know is that most of the land on which Patpong has been developed is owned by the Patponganich family which purchased the area in 1946. Years ago, before the development of the upper half of Silom, Sois 2, 4 and 6 were privately owned by large families. As you guessed correctly, the family which owns the house at the end of Soi 4 owns that soi. Apollo and Tom Boy seem to have been the first gay bars in that Soi. They opened there in 1973, joined by one named Siamese Doll which was eventually to become Rome Club.

[Guest lonelywombat]

All I know is that most of the land on which Patpong has been developed is owned by the Patponganich family which purchased the area in 1946. Years ago, before the development of the upper half of Silom, Sois 2, 4 and 6 were privately owned by large families. As you guessed correctly, the family which owns the house at the end of Soi 4 owns that soi. Apollo and Tom Boy seem to have been the first gay bars in that Soi. They opened there in 1973, joined by one named Siamese Doll which was eventually to become Rome Club.

 

One of the shows I used to love,no nudity was located in Soi Twilight and I think moved to the old Rome Club and then failed.

 

6-8 years ago. It used to be an upstairs show with great dancing masculine rather than ladyboy and the go go boys were outstanding. Anyone remember the name?