Holiday Sunday Numbers Seem Down

[Guest fountainhall]

Last night Soi Twilight was not as busy as I would expect it to be during the peak holiday season. At 8:00pm, the now enlarged outside area at Dick’s Café had almost half its tables taken. By 9:00 they were virtually full. Yet, even by 10:00 the flow of punters through the soi had not built up to what you would expect on a holiday week-end.

 

At Dick’s I had the pork cordon bleu, a huge portion that was tasty and filling and comes with chips and a side salad. My friend had a satisfying hamburger. We then crossed the soi and went up to X-Size to check out the go-go and take in part of the show. We only counted about a dozen boys, well down from my last visit 6 months ago, perhaps a result of some multi-day offs or boys going home for the holiday. Certainly when firecat made his report on 12 November on the thread “Bangkok Soi Twilight”, he had counted between 40 and 50. A couple of twinks smiled our way, but most seemed pretty disinterested in smiling at anyone. Drinks were Bt. 240.

 

My friend invited a boy to sit with him and bought him a drink. He was fun and happy to show off what he had to offer. But after 5 minutes he said my friend had either to take him out or he’d have to go return to the stage. I’m not sure if that is bar policy or an effort from the boy to ensure an off. Whatever, he returned to the stage and was not invited back.

 

The show started soon after 10:00. When will bar owners realise that there are a lot of alternatives to opening a show with John William’s music from Star Wars? This has been a staple in many bars for decades and, in our view, is just plain boring! The show alternated between some nicely choreographed dance numbers with some cute professional dancers who did seem to be enjoying themselves, and more regular fare from a group of four well-endowed go-go boys.

 

My other beef with Bangkok bar shows was also in evidence last night: achingly long blackout gaps between numbers. There is surely something wrong with the organistion of such shows when a 2-minute number is followed by 3 minutes of nothing! Any tension that has been built up just vanishes.

 

We got bored pretty quickly and left. We drove over to Solid near Tawan. Here again, a number of the boys were had gone home for the week-end. From reports, Solid is not a popular bar, perhaps because it has no show and the go-go dancing is barely more than a shuffle. But we enjoy some of the boys. Get a few of them at your table, buy some drinks (Bt. 120) and we always seem to have an enjoyable time. Last night the bar had just one customer when we entered at around 11:00, and 2 when we left at 12:30.

[macaroni21]

You are probably right that gogo bar traffic is down significantly from previous high seasons, and I too agree that the unchanging show formula and music is perhaps part of the reason.

 

However, with specific reference to the lack of boys on stage, I think I know the reason. This is what I heard from boys in Dream Boy in December: They were told by the German boss that they had to work 7 days a week through December because he was expecting/hoping for a surge of patrons through the holiday season. The boys' weekly day off would be postponed till January when they can take them. I do not know if X-size implemented a similar policy, but perhaps they did and now that January's here, the boys are claiming their accumulated days off.

 

I was in X-size in December and estimated that there were some 25-26 boys available just prior to show time. So, in normal times, they should have rather more than the 12 you saw.

 

An alternative explanation could be that by the time you went into X-size, an unusually large percentage of boys had been off'd leaving just the 12 you saw, but I'm sure you'll agree with me, since you were at Dicks watching the foot traffic in and out of the soi, that unless punters after offing boys flew away by helicopter beyond your line of sight, that is not a likely explanation.

[Guest fountainhall]

They were told by the German boss that they had to work 7 days a week through December because he was expecting/hoping for a surge of patrons through the holiday season. The boys' weekly day off would be postponed till January when they can take them.

That certainly makes sense - to a degree. If I were a bar owner, however, I reckon I'd want my guys working on the Sunday prior to a public holiday, the more so since today is also a public holiday in some other countries, including Japan.

 

Unfortunately I was not paying much attention to the X-Size entrance when having dinner, and so there may well have been some offs. My eyes were firmly fixed on a couple of the boys sitting outside the pool bar underneath X-Size (can't recall it's name). They were stunners. As we left to go into X-Size, they mentioned they did have massage rooms at the back. Tempting though that was, we decided to leave it for another day.

 

Another point I noted earlier in the day when out shopping at Central Chidlom, the number of Indians is way up on previous years. I also heard a lot of mandarin chinese being spoken (and not with a Singapore accent!). Didn't notice any in Soi Twilight, though. The other Asians seemed to be mostly Japanese.

[Guest]

You are probably right that gogo bar traffic is down significantly from previous high seasons, and I too agree that the unchanging show formula and music is perhaps part of the reason.

 

Bangkok still has an interesting gogo bar offering, perhaps second only to Pattaya.

 

However, a visit to Soi Twiglight, 2 drinks and an off fee will burn through about 900 baht. Then there's the tip on top. 1000 baht in Pattaya is gratefully accepted for short time. In Bangkok, expectation seem to be higher.

At current exchange rates, the costs will encourage some western tourists to restrict their visits to these bars.

[Guest fountainhall]

You are no doubt correct - certain "western tourists" will be put off by the poor exchange rates and higher charges. But as has consistently been written on this and other Boards, the tourism dynamics in Thailand as a whole are changing - and changing quite quickly. Whilst numbers may be down from the dollar, sterling and euro zones, tourists from these countries now make up less than one third of all tourist arrivals. Visitors from countries whose currencies are keeping pace with the rising Baht - Australia, Japan, China, Singapore, India etc. - are increasing in numbers, and presumably will keep on increasing. China will start flooding the region with tourists in the near future, as restrictions on overseas travel continue to be relaxed along with the government's desire that its citizens spend more of their savings.

 

We also seem to forget that outside the main holiday periods, many Bangkok bars thrive on Thai patrons - not tourists. I have been in Soi Twilight bars where Thais made up at least 80% of the audience and most seem to love the shows.

 

Yet, change in the tourist composition of the audience in the bars does seem to be taking a little more time. Japanese have been around for some time. I also see more and more Chinese now, but it's hard to tell whether they are from the mainland, Singapore, Taiwan or Hong Kong. My own hunch is that those who have been coming for some years - especially the wealthier Singaporeans, Taiwanese and Hong Kongers - are steering clear of Soi Twilight. They are as fed up as many of us at the drab surroundings and the same old routines. They are more likely to be found at Jupiter Bar on the other side of Suriwong which is overall a classier establishment.

 

As has also been discussed a great deal, some bars will go to the wall like Future Boys, once one of the best patronised on Soi Twilight. I reckon there will always be a market for sleaze, but most bar owners have to accept that they must change with the times. Bring back the 'fun' experience and value for money that once made Bangkok bars world famous - and I believe the customers will start to trickle back.

[macaroni21]

Yet, change in the tourist composition of the audience in the bars does seem to be taking a little more time. Japanese have been around for some time. I also see more and more Chinese now, but it's hard to tell whether they are from the mainland, Singapore, Taiwan or Hong Kong. My own hunch is that those who have been coming for some years - especially the wealthier Singaporeans, Taiwanese and Hong Kongers - are steering clear of Soi Twilight. They are as fed up as many of us at the drab surroundings and the same old routines. They are more likely to be found at Jupiter Bar on the other side of Suriwong which is overall a classier establishment.

 

I too am one of those who have been pointing out for a while now that the tourism dynamics are changing, but I also find that I am reminding myself not to assume that Asian tourists will replace Western tourists in similar ways. Even as their numbers increase, their behaviour may be different, and from the bars' point of view, this may or may not mean a lifeline for a slowing industry.

 

But first, just a small digression: In today's news, I saw a report that Macao's gambling revenues in 2010 totalled US$23.5 billion, four times that of Las Vegas. Yes, FOUR TIMES! As we know, Chinese tourists dominate the Macao casino scene. That tells us not only do they have the human numbers, but boy! do they have the money!

 

We can be nearly certain that their presence in Soi Twilight will increase, the only question is really the gradient of the slope. However, I suspect it will be a very long time before they off boys to the same degree as farang tourists in the soi's hey day. The Asians will pay for a drink to see the shows, but will prove a lot more reluctant to off boys.

 

Let me explain why I'm slowly coming to this conclusion:

 

Value for money:

Just because the Chinese will soon have money, doesn't mean they're going to throw it around mindlessly. The same calculations that z909 made (it will cost 900 baht to take a boy out the door and that's before the tip for god-knows-what-level-of-service), the Chinese will be making too. If we aren't seeing Koreans, Taiwanese Singaporeans offing boys like there's no tomorrow despite the current strength of their currencies, I don't think we're going to see the Chinese do likewise -- in any case, it will be a long time yet before even coastal China gets as rich as, say, Hong Kong, Japan or Singapore. This value-for-money problem that the bars got themselves into by raising prices regularly without ever attending to the question of service quality, will not go away just because the skin colour of the tourists has changed.

 

Domestic prostitution:

Compounding the value-for-money problem is the fact that China has a vast domestic prostitution scene. Unlike Western tourists whose domestic rentboys cost much more than Thai rentboys (even at 1,500 baht a pop), Chinese rentboys are a lot more competitively priced. So all the more, Soi Twilight's bar fines and tips will not look as attractive to the new breed of Chinese tourists as it once looked to farang tourists 10 - 20 years ago.

 

It's only the show:

That leaves only the show. Indeed, that is almost unique to Thailand. I can therefore imagine hordes of Chinese coming to take in the shows, at 250 - 300 baht a drink, which they will nurse to the end of the show and then go back to bed. But this begs a new question: How long can shows stay unchanged without boring even this new cohort of tourists to death?

 

Bottom line:

It's probably a lot more complex than a simple replacement of farang tourists with Asian tourists. And even as Asian numbers increase, their spending patterns may be different and may not prove as much a saviour to Soi Twilight as may be hoped.

 

====

 

This is where I have also argued that Pattaya's bars (outside of Sunee which is too far gone in their farang-centric, skinny-queeny-boys-only ways) have an opportunity: Keep prices reasonable, address the money-for-value question, reinvent shows (but don't go overboard) to Asian tastes (no more drag queens singing English-language songs please! Masculine dancers dancing to the latest Mandarin chart-toppers instead), ensure Chinese and Korean-speaking staff, translate all menus into various Asian languages . . in order to aggressively target the Asian tourist.

[Guest kjun12]

 

 

 

unless punters after offing boys flew away by helicopter beyond your line of sight, that is not a likely explanation.

Pray, tell me what a "punter" is.

[KhorTose]

delete

[KhorTose]

Pray, tell me what a "punter" is.

 

A term that those darn Anglo's use. I do not know why they can't speak American.

 

The word punter may refer to:

 

• A British, Australian and Hiberno (Irish) English colloquial term for a paying guest or customer, especially
  • a patron of a public house
  • a patron of a brothel
  • a customer of a prostitute
  • a gambler, particularly an amateur betting on horse racing or a player in the game of Baccarat
  • a beginner skier or snowboarder, especially one with particularly bad style
  • a speculator in the stock market

[Guest lonelywombat]

In the nineties in show bars like Cockpit it was normal for a Japanese number sometimes 2 to be included in each show. The songs that were mimed were popular Japanese songs. The costumes were Japanese so probably they had access to someone local to help make the shows more authentic.

 

At that time it was dirt cheap for employers in Japan to send their entire staff overseas

than to give them a holiday at home. That changed over the last 10/15 years.

 

If it worked then, there is no reason for it not to be worth a serious try again, this time for Chinese.

[Guest fountainhall]

Macaroni21 is as always extremely perceptive. I do agree that the coming inflow of Chinese and other Asian tourists will not replace the traditional western tourist for quite some time. I don’t fully agree with some of his points, though.

 

Domestic Prostitution

 

I doubt if domestic prostitution will necessarily prevent Asians from offing bar boys. In my view, it’s not merely a question of cash. It’s also to do with the exotic nature of Thailand compared to closet nature of homosexuality in their home situations, coupled with their desire to get experiences they cannot have at home. (That said, whilst I know that many more gays are coming out in all Asian countries, the total numbers are pitifully small compared to western countries, largely a result of traditional and ingrained cultural perceptions. I have chatted to many guys on gayromeo and fridae who are still terrified of being known in their communities as gay). As already happens when they visit Thailand, some will get caught up in the excitement of the evening and will then let their dicks do the talking!

 

With regard to northern Asian tourists in general, many of those who presently visit, especially the mainland Chinese, are either on tour groups (where everything is provided for them and they are therefore less likely to have spare cash, except for that set aside for shopping) or are richer individual travellers. I have met some of the latter guys from mainland China who regularly visit Hong Kong for weekends purely to visit the saunas and bars. They go to Hong Kong because they have the required visas. But obtaining visas for Hong Kong is still difficult for most individual mainland travellers. Strangely perhaps, it’s far easier for them to get into Thailand as tourists. Which leads to . . .

 

Cost/Value for Money

 

US$100 for drinks, an off and a happy time is not a large sum for many northern Asian tourists. In Japan, take a boy from one of the host bars in Tokyo and just one hour will set you back US$350 – and that’s before any drinks and transport. Extend to 90 minutes and it’s $100 or so more! Entry into a gay sauna is around $30 - compared to well under $10 here. The Japanese who come here all have a ton of cash in their wallets and the value here is unbelievable to them.

 

For the others, especially the individual gay tourists mentioned above, I do not think cash is the primary issue. They may not have as much spare cash as the Japanese, but US$100 is generally not a problem. I know one entrepreneur with a small company in Shanghai who is here about 4 times a year. He may not stay in a 5-star hotel, but he thinks nothing of spending $200 for an evening out. Which leads to . . .

 

HIV

 

Against all the above, one issue which a number of friends from Taipei, Hong Kong and China constantly bring up, and which I suspect has a greater and increasing affect on the number of offs, is the growing awareness of the very high rates of HIV in Thailand. These figures are published quite frequently elsewhere. Published figures for other regional countries come nowhere near those in Thailand. Even allowing for manipulation or under-reporting, the numbers are still very low in comparison. When those controlling the Japan sex industry finally started doing something about HIV education in that country in the mid-1980s, they believed it was a gaijin disease and closed all the saunas and massage parlours to foreigners. Of course the horse had by that time bolted, but the perception stuck. Even today many saunas refuse admittance to anyone who looks remotely non-Japanese. A culture has therefore been bred that it is dangerous to have sex with foreigners. For many, and not just Japanese, this means, as Macaroni21 suggests, it will be a drink, the show – and that’s it.

 

Macao

 

I think the statistics coming out of Macao are as surprising to Steve Wynn, Sheldon Adelson and Stanley Ho (the main casino operators) as they are the Macao government! It was only 18 months ago or so when gaming revenues in Macao first overtook those on the Las Vegas strip. For them now to be 400% up is staggering. Whilst this indicates that some Chinese have a vast amount of cash to spend, I don’t think it is a pointer to the future in Bangkok (other than the Chinese in general are getting rich!). The statistics show that the vast majority of Chinese visiting Macao are rich officials and entrepreneurs who are there exclusively for the gambling. They don’t have much interest in the complimentary suites, show tickets, free meals and drinks. These guys return time and time again, and spend almost all their time at the tables. Maybe they will have hookers visit their rooms, but they are far from a typical tourist.

 

But I believe we are all in agreement that the bars throughout Thailand have to take a serious look at their operations, gaze into their crystal balls , spend some cash, reinvent themselves, and come out fighting to face the new reality of gay tourism in this country. If not, then many will go the way of Future Boys and Euro Boys.

 

Punter

 

It generally means anyone who is a customer/consumer. So producers call theatre ticket buyers ‘punters’, pub owners call the drinkers ‘punters’, etc.

[macaroni21]

Thank you for a fascinating discussion, though I fear we may have lost nearly everybody else along the way I think we are both largely agreed as to long term trends, but trying also to understand the specific dynamics of different markets. Your discussion about HIV attitudes and the effect of domestic closettedness is certainly interesting, and these considerations must surely be valid - the only question is the degree of impact.

 

I hope to be watching this gogo business for several years yet, if only to satisfy my own curiosity how it will evolve/die.

 

Perhaps it frustrates you as much as it frustrates me that whilst trends are not that difficult to foresee, the bars remain stuck in their complacent ways, seemingly blind to the sunset ahead and oblivious to the opportunities neighbouring markets present.

 

Meanwhile the money-grubbing ways continue. Just read this post at Cruising for sex - http://web.cruisingforsex.com/bb/thailand/336952-gogo-bars-7.html#post681276 - and its follow-ups.

 

And still, no one cares about delivering quality service. Read this post at Cruising for sex - http://web.cruisingforsex.com/bb/thailand/337279-how-about-bangkok-now-17.html#post681210

[Guest fountainhall]

I hope we have not lost too many readers - so far!

 

I read the excerpts from the cruising for sex site. I had completely forgotten about Inter Moustache. I think I was last there about 25 years ago. It had an attitude then, and it seems that has not changed. Like the poster mentions, I recall they had some great looking guys. Mind you, V Club also used to have a few good-looking models on the staff when it first opened. Or are we looking back through rosy-tinted spectacles? I think not.

 

Since I live in Thailand, I'll also keep an eye on how the scene develops. I do wish, though, that someone would open a nice up-market cocktail-type bar with some well-chosen furnishings, great drinks and perhaps a few 'quality' hosts. A place for Thais and farang to go and have a drink and a chat with friends, maybe an occasional hook up with someone for dinner and whatever thereafter. Clearly costs would be higher, but I do think there is a niche market clientele for this.

[Guest]

In Japan, take a boy from one of the host bars in Tokyo and just one hour will set you back US$350 – and that’s before any drinks and transport. Extend to 90 minutes and it’s $100 or so more! Entry into a gay sauna is around $30 - compared to well under $10 here. The Japanese who come here all have a ton of cash in their wallets and the value here is unbelievable to them.

 

A VERY cute guy can be had from a Tokyo Agency for about 14,000 yen per hour, ie $168.

I've found freelancers for just over half that.

 

Of course Thailand will be spectacular value for any Japanese visitor. However, sex with cute Asians is something that's readily available in Tokyo (at a price). To the typical western visitor to Thailand, sex with cute Asians can be difficult to find at home.

 

Then there are just 120 Million Japanese, but maybe about 320 Million in Western Europe & I imagine the US Population is in the same ballpark (no need to check precise figures).

 

So Gay Thailand really needs to attract a few Chinese customers. However, we've already heard the theory that gay sex is readily available in China at low prices. [it would be good to heat more about that, for anyone planning a visit to China]

[Moses]

gay sex is readily available in China at low prices. [it would be good to heat more about that, for anyone planning a visit to China]

 

it is... In Shanghai price is about 20-25$ (night, boys from gay dance club)

[KhorTose]

it is... In Shanghai price is about 20-25$ (night, boys from gay dance club)

 

Your post made me look up a gay web site on Shanghai. I am impressed, and i agree Thailand may have some serious competition.

[macaroni21]

If it worked then, there is no reason for it not to be worth a serious try again, this time for Chinese.

 

Taking this discussion off on a different tangent, a big reason why I am not expecting the majority of Soi Twlight bars to take the initiative to change with the times is that they are not run as businesses in the usual sense.

 

While I don't have proof, I have a sense (do others have the same view?) that except for farang-owned Dream Boy/Boys Bangkok and maybe Classic, the owners of the rest, including Jupiter 2002, are ultimately senior police officers. Many of these bars have women as their "bosses" or "owner" as the boys call them, but occasionally I've heard the boys whisper that they're the wife of some Police colonel.

 

If that's the case, then it is very unlikely they are there to create/run a business in the normal sense of creating value, ensuring customer satisfaction, innovating, etc. They are in this business to extract monetary value from their high positions (positions which they might have purchased). They use their position to get a bar licence and exemption from laws against prostitution, public nudity, etc, while denying the same to others, and they treat the bar as a kind of cash cow.

 

They fit into the classic Thai rentier class; i.e. they use their positions to collect "rent" from others, through their privileged ownership of assets (in this case the power to issue/police licences). They ride along benefitting from the market value (of those assets) created by others (in this case Dream Boy) by charging similar prices and copying similar activities (shows, etc) but it never occurs to them that they should be innovating and creating new value themselves.

 

Some wives are savvier businesswomen than others. Perhaps the Jupiter woman is savvy in her own right and is able to make something out of her family bar.

 

Pattayaland bars are likely different in that they are owned mostly by ordinary Thais. That they are subject to crackdowns on nudity suggests that their relationship with the powers-that-be are not as close as the Soi Twilight bars. But hopefully, it also suggests that at least some of them think like businessmen, and are capable of reinvention?

[Guest fountainhall]

Thanks to z909 for pointing out an error in my earlier post about charges in Japan. My listing of around US$350 is from a recognised host bar (like Kings of College) rather than a freelancer, and the rate would be for an overnight, not for a short off. Extension fees are if you want a boy earlier than the usual overnight start time of 10:00 pm or want them to stay longer in the morning.

 

In Shanghai price is about 20-25$ (night, boys from gay dance club)

Your post made me look up a gay web site on Shanghai. I am impressed

As a fairly regular visitor to Shanghai, I'd love to know where to find that club and website. I have never heard of rates as low as US$20 - $25 in any of the Chinese coastal cities. Good friends who have lived in Shanghai for more than 15 years (an American and his long term Chinese partner) have always told me that rates for foreigners are well over the $100 mark. In Beijing about 8 years ago, I went to a popular cruising park and took a really cute guy for coffee with the intention of bringing him back to the hotel afterwards. He quoted 2,500 RMB - around US$300 at the time! I tried to get that down. He totally refused. So it was just coffee and goodbye!

 

If that's the case, then it is very unlikely they are there to create/run a business in the normal sense of creating value, ensuring customer satisfaction, innovating, etc. They are in this business to extract monetary value from their high positions

I am curious. If bar income is down - or at best steady - would these owners not make more money in a much shorter time if they just club together and try to sell much of the street? Soi Twilight, after all, is in a very desirable area.

[Guest lonelywombat]

Taking this discussion off on a different tangent, a big reason why I am not expecting the majority of Soi Twlight bars to take the initiative to change with the times is that they are not run as businesses in the usual sense.

 

 

 

If that's the case, then it is very unlikely they are there to create/run a business in the normal sense of creating value, ensuring customer satisfaction, innovating, etc. They are in this business to extract monetary value from their high positions (positions which they might have purchased). They use their position to get a bar licence and exemption from laws against prostitution, public nudity, etc, while denying the same to others, and they treat the bar as a kind of cash cow.

 

 

 

I am replying only to the quoted text. Perhaps the opposite might also be right. Maybe they are laundering money with a high profile bar with a huge profit. In that case it would not matter to them how small the crowds are, or what they spend as long as it gives the appearance of being successful.

[Guest fountainhall]

I saw a report that Macao's gambling revenues in 2010 totalled US$23.5 billion, four times that of Las Vegas.

Who says gambling does not pay? Shares in Wynn Macau, the Hong Kong listed company for Steve Wynn's Macau property and gaming operations, rose 120% in the last 52 weeks!

[macaroni21]

As a fairly regular visitor to Shanghai, I'd love to know where to find that club and website. I have never heard of rates as low as US$20 - $25 in any of the Chinese coastal cities.

 

Nor have I. In Shanghai and Beijing, my impression is that rates are higher than Thailand, but not by much. In smaller cities, could be lower than Thailand. Service quality everywhere too is not a lot different either (more like 'indifferent'). But my experience is limited to no more than 4 occasions, so I won't pretend to speak with any authority.

 

I am curious. If bar income is down - or at best steady - would these owners not make more money in a much shorter time if they just club together and try to sell much of the street? Soi Twilight, after all, is in a very desirable area.

 

Bars owners may own the business but lease the building.

 

 

Maybe they are laundering money with a high profile bar with a huge profit. In that case it would not matter to them how small the crowds are, or what they spend as long as it gives the appearance of being successful.

 

Could be. It might even explain how a bar like Hotmale or X-boys survived the last 12 months, averaging 3 - 5 customers in the low season and now maybe 15 - 20 customers in the high season. My back of the envelope calculations suggested that couldn't even pay salaries and show costs.

[Guest fountainhall]

It might even explain how a bar like Hotmale or X-boys survived the last 12 months, averaging 3 - 5 customers in the low season and now maybe 15 - 20 customers in the high season.

One point has always mystified me. Almost everyone I speak to with experience of the original Twilight bar has not just fond memories of the place. They seemed to love it, despite its obvious seediness. I think I discovered it around 1984 when I moved on from the old Apollo bar (of which I retain equally fond memories). Thereafter, on my many visits to Bangkok, Twilight was always on my calendar.

 

When it changed to Hotmale, it lost most of its charm and a lot of its clientele. I realise that weekday customers gradually became far fewer than on week-ends, when many extra chairs had always to be added. Do you think it changed just because of the more upmarket competition from the newer bars that had spring up on that soi? Did the market for that type of sleazier, less slick bar just start to fade away? Were the boys less prepared to dance naked when they saw this did not happen in the other bars? Or was the tea money to the powers that be raised to too high a level with the growing emphasis on morality that seemed to creep into the national government's thinking as the prosperity of the 90s took hold?

 

I can't help feeling that if it was to revert to its old format, the place would be packed!

[Guest]

Japan:

I've been to King Of College on a few occasions, but not recently. According to the website, their 1 hour rate is now 13,000 yen ($156), similar in Yen terms to when I was there about 3 years ago. Long time is considerably more expensive.

King Of College

An Independance

King of College has guys lined up fully clothed behind the bar for you to select. It's very easy to find in the gay district, upstairs opposite an convenience store. There's a possibility to try your luck at the nearby sauna first.

"An Independence" is much more difficult to locate, thanks to Japanese language maps and being some distance from the gay area. You also need to phone them, so they can show you to the premises. Guys are selected from a catalogue. Well worth the effort to find though.

One hour in Japan means precisely that, whereas Thai short time often goes well beyond 1 hour.

 

China:

As for China, surely for any freelance options, "foreigner rates" would be influenced by negotiation? If he NEEDS the money and you have a price limit which you will stick to, then surely a deal would be done at a price acceptable to both parties?

If the scene is based out of expensive mafia bars, I guess that might not apply though.

[macaroni21]

Freelance options in China, especially those picked up in parks/streets can be dangerous to life and limb.

[Guest]

Freelance options in China, especially those picked up in parks/streets can be dangerous to life and limb.

Why is this?