This time bit different - trip to Thailand in August 2024

[bkkmfj2648]

10 hours ago, vinapu said:

My opinion about 4 hands / threesomes is 150 % more fun for 200% more cost and initiate it very rarely.

Bkkmfj may add to discussion as he is well versed in the issue

What Vinapu wrote about the cost is VERY true.

The only way to mitigate this to get more "bang for the buck" is to make sure that both of the guys that you want to make the 4 hands with are:

• into each other,
• agree on the program menu (s = soft like reciprocal handjobs, ss = everything outside of the anal sphincter, h = hard - includes anal sex - but need to identify who would do who - i.e., who would agree to be a bottom).

If you can get the above details worked out before the performance begins then the additional cost can be worth it.

If any of the above details go out of whack - then the value for money will deteriorate.

10 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

If Bkkmfj has any thoughts, that would be helpful.  Grindr guys do not seem keen on 3somes, with one splendid exception!

see my list above

Furthermore, I found the BIGGEST issue about 4 hands, 6 hands, or 8 hands - is whether the guys will kiss.  I found that the guys are more willing to do the above mentioned 's' and 'ss' activities MORE than kissing.  It seems that kissing is one step too much - perhaps too intimate ??

For the 'h' category - I noticed that kissing tends to be more included - I guess this may be relevant to the intimacy required for a "good fuck"??  I am not sure - as I am not a big consumer of 'h' activities - as I tend to prefer 's' and 'ss' activities, as they are more aligned with SIDE activities like sensual edging - which I am a big consumer of.

Lastly, as a SIDE, where we are a minority within the greater sexual community - I note that many times when I order up a 4 hands massage - that sometimes the 2 guys are really into each other and they ask me if they can fuck - and I almost always say yes - as it is a turn on for me to watch 2 guys get intimate with each other within my vicinity - however, after they finish their fucking activities I request that we still conclude with them edging me to a hot climax - as I like my orgasm to always be last - as the sounds, sights, and orgasms of the others is a real turn on for me.

@macaroni21 --> would you mind to jump in regarding these questions?  I willingly refer to you, because I notice that you have an innate way of seeing things from a better and deeper statistical point of view than I do.

[vinapu]

5 minutes ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

h = hard - includes anal sex - but need to identify who would do who - i.e., who would agree to be a bottom).

 

that reminded me quite old story from soi Twilight day. I fancied to take 2 guys from Fresh Beach boys bar and did it by the book i.e. asked one first if he is into it with another guy, he agreed  and pointed at 2 others he suhggested will be willing participants. One of those was other guy I had in mind.

Over drinks we prepared scenario and  went to hotel where boys decided to reverse fun. Supposed bottom topped one destined to be top. I decided not to intervene as they obviously were enjoying it  

[bkkmfj2648]

27 minutes ago, vinapu said:

At 10 am my forum friend and me met at Mahanakhon and went up . 350 for seniors, 880 regular which  climbs to 1080 after 15.30.

I still have not yet had the privilege to go up to the top of Mahanakhon - so, I may chase you the next time I join you in BKK to take me up there - I will insist to buy your ticket - as maybe you are already starting to get bored by taking all of us forum members up there ? 🤔

 

27 minutes ago, vinapu said:

I would never expect that but at one moment he told me that I also contributed big chunk to its construction. Not that it’s inaccurate, in last few years I off him regularly and tip him generously , first because his service is second to none , second because I knew he is not squandering money but putting it into construction. I knew all of that but still was thrilled that he noticed and appreciated it.

That was very touching - thanks for sharing it with all of us.

Perhaps a section of his new home will be dedicated to KFC?   perhaps the foundation of the house (building blocks) ?

maybe one day you will find yourself visiting his home?

Two of my Dongtan beach volleyball friends were VERY proud to show off the homes that they had built back in their home towns (Sukhothai and Phitsanulock) - where the one in the suburbs of Sukhothai was palatial and the one in Phisanulock was modest and is where I slept.  As you Vinapu, it made me feel good that our guys did not squander their money and in fact did prepare for their respective futures - as well as to take care of their families.

Pattaya is SO full of what I like to call, "Thai economic refugees", where they are only in Pattaya temporarily - usually in their young years - to extract as much money as is possible from us - so that these monetary funds can be sent back to their home villages for their families and for that dreadful day when they realize that they are no longer marketable to the tourists of Pattaya - as in expired milk.

@vinapu my sense of it is that BKK is also a part of this economic refugee phenomena.  Would you agree?

[jason1975]

2 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Lastly, as a SIDE, where we are a minority within the greater sexual community - I note that many times when I order up a 4 hands massage - that sometimes the 2 guys are really into each other and they ask me if they can fuck - and I almost always say yes - as it is a turn on for me to watch 2 guys get intimate with each other within my vicinity - however, after they finish their fucking activities I request that we still conclude with them edging me to a hot climax - as I like my orgasm to always be last - as the sounds, sights, and orgasms of the others is a real turn on for me.

I am also a side. You have an excellent success rate at picking guys who fuck each other during your 4 hands massage. I want to try it but I don't know how to broach the topic with the massage guys.

[bkkmfj2648]

1 hour ago, jason1975 said:

4 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

Lastly, as a SIDE, where we are a minority within the greater sexual community - I note that many times when I order up a 4 hands massage - that sometimes the 2 guys are really into each other and they ask me if they can fuck - and I almost always say yes - as it is a turn on for me to watch 2 guys get intimate with each other within my vicinity - however, after they finish their fucking activities I request that we still conclude with them edging me to a hot climax - as I like my orgasm to always be last - as the sounds, sights, and orgasms of the others is a real turn on for me.

Expand  

I am also a side. You have an excellent success rate at picking guys who fuck each other during your 4 hands massage. I want to try it but I don't know how to broach the topic with the massage guys.

Wow Jason.

I thank you for outing yourself as a SIDE.  It is nice to know that we are not alone and that we do not need to force ourselves into the former labels of; TOP or BOTTOM.

Regarding my success, it was based on luck.

Why?

Because I would request 's' or 'ss' activities where the guys agreed to that type of program (they would often tell me that it is easier money for them than 'h' activities) --> but during the session, the 2 guys would sometimes get into the hottness of each other, and would ask to move into 'h' activities.

I never requested 'h' activities - they would evolve on their own based on the desires of the 2 guys.

Sometimes they would ask me to be a participating member, as to be a bottom, but I would decline (too much pain for me) and on rare occassions I would be a top for a little bit - but I can never reach on orgasm that way, so, I always revert back to my SIDE edging preferences.

But, it is all fun and nice to sometimes be fluid and just go with the flow....

[macaroni21]

About 4-hands: I totally agree it is almost always poor value for money. Most of us might be piqued by the possibility – and I wonder whether it’s a transfer from watching porn – but in real life it seems hard to arrange, and too often comes with a low satisfaction rate. I paid for a number of four-hand massages way back in the 1990s, then got disillusioned and haven’t really been buying anymore.

From distant memory, the only time when I had what might be called a “good” session was eons ago in Phuket when I hired a pair of guys. They were unusually interactive with each other which was fun to watch. Later I found out that they were cousins and had been frisky with each other since young. But even then, there was some disappointment. After they had both cum, they were so spent they hardly performed much by way of service on me. "Hey guys, I am the one paying!"

I have only one story in my blog about a four-hands massage - so rarely do I order this. This was from 2020, and was far more typical of the so-so, meh, experience I associate with such an arrangement.

[macaroni21]

About being a side: Like any good statistician, one should begin by explaining the methodology and the sampling technique. I shall declare here that I have neither data or ever tried any kind of structured sampling or observation. Please don’t picture me as some kind of fly on the wall, equipped with clipboard, watching and making notes about other people’s preferred gymnastics.

😮

Well, maybe in my next life when, by the grace of Buddha, I am reincarnated as a fly… but not yet.

4 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

as a SIDE, where we are a minority within the greater sexual community

I don’t think it’s so simple. It may well be that those who are EXCLUSIVELY side are a minority (and even then, a biggish minority), but since even tops and bottoms sometimes have encounters that aren’t insertive, then side-type encounters may be much more common than we think.

I posit with my arguments below that side-type encounters may very well be the majority of encounters.

We may be able to draw, very indirectly, a sense of the situation from the arrays of boys advertised by many of the Saphan Khwai massage shops. Phetboy, K-man, 27M, KK Massage and OneSpa either always or sometimes tag their featured boys with “Top” or “T&B”.  I have never seen a pure “B” or “Handjob only” tag (not in Thailand, at least).

The great majority of the tagged boys are “Top”. In my experience, even those tagged as “T&B” sometimes resist bottomming. @reader, who surely has far more experience with the Saphan Khwai shops, may be able to share his view on this. Furthermore, I suspect the shops use the “T&B” tag to simply indicate gay sexual orientation, not what they will actually be prepared to do, which adds another layer of complication.

Assuming that there isn’t a situation where “T&B” boys score vastly more bookings than “Top” boys, then (since the large majority of boys as tagged as “top”)  we are left with two logical possibilities: Either the great majority of interactions in these shops’ rooms involve the customer bottoming, or the great majority of interactions are side.

I somehow think it is more likely the latter.

One question for the wisdom of the masses here: What about someone whose primary interest is in blowjobs, giving and/or receiving. Would he be classed as a side?
 

[bkkmfj2648]

1 hour ago, macaroni21 said:

One question for the wisdom of the masses here: What about someone whose primary interest is in blowjobs, giving and/or receiving. Would he be classed as a side?

Thanks @macaroni21 for posting your thorough and very informative response.

I agree with your findings that most of us end up practicing SIDE activities more often than we expect.

However, for me, the invention of the new SIDE category, back in 2013, was a liberating blessing for me.  I never fully identified with TOP - as it implied that I needed to penetrate BOTTOMs - and I never truly enjoyed anal sex with penetration.  The new SIDE category, relieved me of that stress of having to identify as a TOP (with what that would falsely imply to the bottoms of the world - that I would desire to TOP them) which allowed me to gain a new "out of the TOP closet" freedom.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jun/20/rise-of-the-sides-how-grindr-finally-recognized-gay-men-who-arent-tops-or-bottoms

The term side was coined in 2013 by the sex therapist and author Dr Joe Kort, but only in the last year has it gained glimmers of acknowledgment in the wider gay world. Eighteen months ago, Dr Kort made a private Facebook group page called Side Guys to give the men a forum for acceptance and, perhaps, to start a movement. “I wanted to create a community,” he said. “I wanted to help people get rid of the loneliness and the shame.”

Back in 2014 after Dr Joe Kort invented the new sexual activity category = SIDE - I started petitioning PlanetRomeo to add this as a new category - when identifying your sexual activity preference in your Romeo profile.  It was an uphill battle, as I found an insensitivity amongst the gatekeepers who did not want to further fragment the 3 traditional categories of:

• TOP,
• BOTTOM,
• VERSITILE.

As I was an activist in my mid-to-late 20s (late 1980s) when I lived in NYC, I remember protesting in the streets of New York for Gay Rights, AIDS funding, Access to proper AIDS medicines, etc. - Then in 2014, I felt like I had to start all over again within the gay community for the right to identify as a SIDE and to have the ability via the database search function to be able to find other like minded SIDEs within the various apps.

Nowadays, Hornet, Grindr, Romeo now have the new SIDE category in their apps.  Unfortunately, HeeSay (formerly BLUED) has still not yet added it.

@macaroni21 from my understanding of the new SIDE definition, it would  include those whose primary interest is blowjobs.

In fact, there is now a new app for people in this category, known as TheBlowers - 

Twitter (X) - @TheBlowers

Web - https://www.theblowers.com

Where within the app you can identify as:

• a TOP (Blowie) - wanting to get a blowjob,
• a BOTTOM (Blower) - wanting to give a blowjob,
• BOTH - into both above stated blowjob activities

 

An appeal to all of you - if you know of any other SIDE apps - that specialize in EDGING I would be greatly indebted - as it is very difficult to find other edgers to play with.

 

[vinapu]

8 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

I still have not yet had the privilege to go up to the top of Mahanakhon - so, I may chase you the next time I join you in BKK to take me up there - I will insist to buy your ticket - as maybe you are already starting to get bored by taking all of us forum members up there ? 🤔

......................

Perhaps a section of his new home will be dedicated to KFC?   perhaps the foundation of the house (building blocks) ?

maybe one day you will find yourself visiting his home?

......................................

Pattaya is SO full of what I like to call, "Thai economic refugees", where they are only in Pattaya temporarily - usually in their young years 

@vinapu my sense of it is that BKK is also a part of this economic refugee phenomena.  Would you agree?

Going to Mahanakhon is easy and I actually wonder why we did not came to that idea when we were there together. I guess whoring preoccupied us. I go there at least once every trip (may of this year was exception but it was short trip), very often with boy in tow. I like it and there's nothing boring so yes lets go there  next time we find ourselves in BKK together .

My best moment there was in covid time ,  having top including glass all for myself for quite a long time. 

Since it's quite expensive I'd not take boy there unless  he is genuinely interested. I took few who did it thinking it will make me happier and one actually even said it would be better if I gave him cost of ticket instead of going up.

...................

I'd be very happy to see Y 's home specially that he hails from part of Laos I never visited. No need to dedicate any part to me but fact that he underscored that I (and presumably countless other of his customers ) contributed to is was endearing indeed.

.......................

as for boys economic  well being, after last trip to put it mildly, it's not my concern at the moment.

 ( I don't give a f***k would better describe my attitude  but I'm very well mannered person so will not say it. )

[vinapu]

3 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

 

One question for the wisdom of the masses here: What about someone whose primary interest is in blowjobs, giving and/or receiving. Would he be classed as a side?
 

I'd say so, 69 included

[vinapu]

2 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

An appeal to all of you - if you know of any other SIDE apps - that specialize in EDGING I would be greatly indebted - as it is very difficult to find other edgers to play with.

 

you are in Pattaya with so much talent available , no need for specialized apps. Just look around and take your pick, no ?

[jason1975]

9 hours ago, vinapu said:

At 1 pm Y was supposed to show up in the room but he was bit late. Very pleasant encounter as always. It’s hard to find even small fault with the guy. Apart from usual staff we also had a bit of talk. I asked him about house he is building in his village. He showed me his pictures , it looks that it’s almost completed.

I would never expect that but at one moment he told me that I also contributed big chunk to its construction. Not that it’s inaccurate, in last few years I off him regularly and tip him generously , first because his service is second to none , second because I knew he is not squandering money but putting it into construction. I knew all of that but still was thrilled that he noticed and appreciated it.

We had also bit teary moment when he pulled pic of his late mother . It turned out we both were by our mother’s sides when they breathed their last. Misty eyes and much stronger mutual  hug than normally.

At 5 pm we finished our stamps survey and went to Foodland to eat something and the parted ways. If I have any hope about future trips to Thailand it’s that I hope to see him again.

You are loyal and generous to your favourite guys!

[jason1975]

On 9/13/2024 at 10:39 AM, vinapu said:

We decided to go to soi 6 for massage as he had somebody in mind and I wanted Mak , former masseur at Tawan , whom I spotted another day working at 9-teen.

Unfortunately he had day off today so  I grabbed another guy sitting at front.

A ex Tawan guy working at 9-teen? That's a surprise!

 

[reader]

4 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

The great majority of the tagged boys are “Top”. In my experience, even those tagged as “T&B” sometimes resist bottomming. @reader, who surely has far more experience with the Saphan Khwai shops, may be able to share his view on this. Furthermore, I suspect the shops use the “T&B” tag to simply indicate gay sexual orientation, not what they will actually be prepared to do, which adds another layer of complication.

Assuming that there isn’t a situation where “T&B” boys score vastly more bookings than “Top” boys, then (since the large majority of boys as tagged as “top”)  we are left with two logical possibilities: Either the great majority of interactions in these shops’ rooms involve the customer bottoming, or the great majority of interactions are side.

Just about all of the shops identify their guys in one manner or another (Top, bottom,T&B, both). I usually only choose tops, but I've found that even some are actually more flexible but choose to only publicly identify as top for personal reasons.

When I have chosen a T&B because I found him particularly attractive, most seem to clearly prefer the top role. But it's abundantly clear that minority are dedicated bottoms who relish that aspect.

Every top I've found is a bit different and those differences are what keep me coming back to Saphan Kwai.

 

[vinapu]

16 minutes ago, jason1975 said:

You are loyal and generous to your favourite guys!

I know. I don't like be indebted so if they play along to my liking  l make sure they know I'm happy and their pocket will feel it

[vinapu]

12 minutes ago, jason1975 said:

A ex Tawan guy working at 9-teen? That's a surprise!

 

not really as in Tawan he was moonlighting as resident masseur. He was actually their first twink on board.

I guess he figured out he will do better in proper massage shop

[reader]

10 hours ago, vinapu said:

I would never expect that but at one moment he told me that I also contributed big chunk to its construction. Not that it’s inaccurate, in last few years I off him regularly and tip him generously , first because his service is second to none , second because I knew he is not squandering money but putting it into construction. I knew all of that but still was thrilled that he noticed and appreciated it.

We had also bit teary moment when he pulled pic of his late mother . It turned out we both were by our mother’s sides when they breathed their last. Misty eyes and much stronger mutual  hug than normally.

When everything else about your trip's disappointments fade with time, the moments you describe above will persist indefinitely. To know that you truly made a difference in a young man's future is no small feat.

You'll very likely find that that those who caused you the most remorse will slowly cease to haunt your consciousness. But the one who shared the most intimate moments with you will be the reason you go to your computer and begin the rebooking process.

The older we get the more we realize that we need people like that in our lives. They are far and few between but they do exist. That they challenge our concept of butterfly is something not to be feared.

[bkkmfj2648]

3 hours ago, vinapu said:

you are in Pattaya with so much talent available , no need for specialized apps. Just look around and take your pick, no ?

haha @vinapu - after living here now for 2 full years - the number of people that know what 'edging' is - nill / null.

I wish that I could do as you say, "Just look around and take your pick".  It is not possible as edging is not an activity in the Thai vernacular. 

Ironically, in my Twitter (X) research to implement my 4-4-4 plan for next year 2025 - I see that in The Philippines there is a HUGE awareness for edging - but in Thailand and Vietnam there is almost no awareness.

[Verchiele]

5 hours ago, reader said:

Just about all of the shops identify their guys in one manner or another (Top, bottom,T&B, both). I usually only choose tops, but I've found that even some are actually more flexible but choose to only publicly identify as top for personal reasons.

When I have chosen a T&B because I found him particularly attractive, most seem to clearly prefer the top role. But it's abundantly clear that minority are dedicated bottoms who relish that aspect.

Every top I've found is a bit different and those differences are what keep me coming back to Saphan Kwai.

 

@bkkmfj2648 point about the boy’s reluctance to kiss is interesting. Based on my crude math reading reviews, many bous are open to anything but kissing perhaps about 30%’of the time. 
 

@reader, @macaroni21 - is that consistent with your experience either in Saphan Kwai or beyond?

 

 

[floridarob]

3 hours ago, bkkmfj2648 said:

I see that in The Philippines there is a HUGE awareness for edging

recon.com might reveal some that are into it....?

[Keithambrose]

12 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

About 4-hands: I totally agree it is almost always poor value for money. Most of us might be piqued by the possibility – and I wonder whether it’s a transfer from watching porn – but in real life it seems hard to arrange, and too often comes with a low satisfaction rate. I paid for a number of four-hand massages way back in the 1990s, then got disillusioned and haven’t really been buying anymore.

From distant memory, the only time when I had what might be called a “good” session was eons ago in Phuket when I hired a pair of guys. They were unusually interactive with each other which was fun to watch. Later I found out that they were cousins and had been frisky with each other since young. But even then, there was some disappointment. After they had both cum, they were so spent they hardly performed much by way of service on me. "Hey guys, I am the one paying!"

I have only one story in my blog about a four-hands massage - so rarely do I order this. This was from 2020, and was far more typical of the so-so, meh, experience I associate with such an arrangement.

As I said, I had one good 3some experience  from Grindr. The couple, I believe  they were a couple, contacted  me and said they would do everything. They were both attractive,  twinks, which i like. They were reasonable on price,  b4,000, I think. They did do everything,  fucked each other, I could fuck both of them, cum everywhere! I think I was lucky because they contacted me as a couple.

[Travelingguy]

This is so funny.  I have never heard this term, SIDE.  I have always viewed myself has a Top that was not really into it for the most part.  I primarily topped because my partner wanted that.  Never bottomed and no desire to.  Under the right circumstances, I might really want to top, but for the most part, I enjoy all the rest of the activities.  

When it comes to hiring someone, I would think that it would be easier for the person being hired if there was no anal expectations. I like the caressing, intimacy and kissing.  So, maybe from the perspective of guy being hired, I would be more demanding than the straightforward top because of the kissing.  But that is why it is important to know what is included in the fee.

[Keithambrose]

30 minutes ago, Travelingguy said:

This is so funny.  I have never heard this term, SIDE.  I have always viewed myself has a Top that was not really into it for the most part.  I primarily topped because my partner wanted that.  Never bottomed and no desire to.  Under the right circumstances, I might really want to top, but for the most part, I enjoy all the rest of the activities.  

When it comes to hiring someone, I would think that it would be easier for the person being hired if there was no anal expectations. I like the caressing, intimacy and kissing.  So, maybe from the perspective of guy being hired, I would be more demanding than the straightforward top because of the kissing.  But that is why it is important to know what is included in the fee.

The expression  'Side' has become more common recently.  I agree with a lot of what you say. I am primarily  a top, but quite happy to have a long, kissing, oral, cuddling, session, ending in our both cumming, with no anal. I also regard kissing, and good kissing at that as very important! Accordingly, I approve of some members  on here, who, in a go go bar,  suggested a dry run, so to speak,  assisted by a red note, to check out the kissing position. Personally  I would try never to  hire someone  who did not kiss, with tongue! I have recently started  to enjoy swallowing,  another great  way to end a side session!

[12is12]

I m a bit confused by the "side" discussion here, more specifically by the question whether oralists r sides. 

The 'official' definition of the term is: men who find sexual pleasure in all sexual activities except anal ones. So of course those who prefer sucking and being sucked r side.

I m one of them.

[Olddaddy]

1 hour ago, Keithambrose said:

As I said, I had one good 3some experience  from Grindr. The couple, I believe  they were a couple, contacted  me and said they would do everything. They were both attractive,  twinks, which i like. They were reasonable on price,  b4,000, I think. They did do everything,  fucked each other, I could fuck both of them, cum everywhere! I think I was lucky because they contacted me as a couple.

Indonesian guys?