Biden Will Drop Out Of 2024 Race, Will Not Endorse VP Kamala Harris - Trump should step aside, too!

[unicorn]

31 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

You're welcome.  I'm glad @unicorn and I were able to get to the facts, too.

I forgot to mention.  When Joe and I talked this morning, I did ask him if he had Parkinsons or was engaged in a conspiracy with his doctor to lie to the world about any medical diagnosis or cognitive condition.  Here's what he said.

‘Shameful baloney’: Biden, allies dismiss calls for resignation

The president’s aides and supporters insist that he is both able and determined to serve out the final months of his presidency.

 

 

[stevenkesslar]

37 minutes ago, unicorn said:

I did say Biden saw the doctor 8 times.  I think it's pretty obvious Biden did, although I cannot know this for a fact.

Actually, it's a fact Biden did NOT.  I'm honestly not sure why you can't get that.  This doctor is at The White House a lot, and has been since 2012.  You might just as well argue that he's been seeing Biden every time he is at The White House since 2012.  Since it makes just as much sense as saying he obviously must have been going to The White House eight times to see Biden.  The basic idea is simple.  You want to just speculate about things you don't know about, and then call them facts.

I won't bother posting them, but you can easily go find attack pieces on Biden saying he has dementia in 2019, or 2020, or 2021, or 2022, or 2023, or 2024.  Somehow he managed to have an effective Presidency despite the fact that he always had dementia, according to the fact free right wingers attacking him.  I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find attacks on Biden for having dementia when he was Veep.  At some point it just becomes the longest diagnosis in history that has never actually been given.

Anyway, I hope we can let it die.  To quote Joe, it's baloney.

Happily, the problem of his old age has been solved.  You wanted him to quit the race.  I wanted him to quit the race.  And he has.

Here's an interesting but irrelevant fun fact from history, regarding Konrad Adenauer:

Quote

The construction of the Berlin Wall in August 1961 and the sealing of borders by the East Germans made Adenauer's government look weak. Adenauer continued his campaign trail and made a disastrous misjudgement in a speech on 14 August 1961 in Regensburg with a personal attack on the SPD lead candidate Willy Brandt, Lord Mayor of West-Berlin, saying that Brandt's illegitimate birth had disqualified him from holding any sort of office.^[123] After failing to keep their majority in the general election on 17 September, the CDU/CSU again needed to include the FDP in a coalition government. Adenauer was forced to make two concessions: to relinquish the chancellorship before the end of the new term, his fourth, and to replace his foreign minister.^[124] In his last years in office, Adenauer used to take a nap after lunch and, when he was traveling abroad and had a public function to attend, he sometimes asked for a bed in a room close to where he was supposed to be speaking, so that he could rest briefly before he appeared.^[125]

Elizabeth Warren was my choice in 2020.  I will go the grave thinking, had Democrats nominated her, she would have won and been a good POTUS.  And we would not have had an old Joe problem.  That said, I think Biden has been a good POTUS.  And I think Kamala will be a good POTUS.  So I ain't complaining.

When it was clear Biden would be the 2020 nominee, I read about Adenauer because I thought that might be a model.  And it has been.  Including how it ended.  Like Biden, Adenauer was brought down as a result of a political deal, not a medical condition.  As Wikipedia describes, Adenauer was brought down by other politicians on his team because he was seen as weak.  And that had consequences in an election.  He resigned in 1963, two years into his fourth term.  He lived until 1967, into his early 90's.

I'm very glad this was settled now.  Apart from the issue of whether Biden could have won in November, it would have become increasingly awkward for Biden as POTUS in 2025 and beyond.  And regardless of his actual health, there would have been constant political attacks about his age.

That said, if Harris wins I could see Biden playing a role as elder statesman, either formally or informally.  As Chris Coons just said, Biden is probably the American alive today with the most foreign policy experience, and the longest and best relationships with many foreign leaders.  I think Biden is absolutely right that only he could have rebuilt and expanded NATO.  Although Putin sure helped.  

But there I go, talking about Genocide Man again.  My bad.  😉

 

[lookin]

35 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

Here's an interesting but irrelevant fun fact from history, regarding Konrad Adenauer:

Elizabeth Warren was my choice in 2020.  I will go the grave thinking, had Democrats nominated her, she would have won and been a good POTUS.  And we would not have had an old Joe problem.  That said, I think Biden has been a good POTUS.  And I think Kamala will be a good POTUS.  So I ain't complaining.

When it was clear Biden would be the 2020 nominee, I read about Adenauer because I thought that might be a model.  And it has been.  Including how it ended.  Like Biden, Adenauer was brought down as a result of a political deal, not a medical condition.  As Wikipedia describes, Adenauer was brought down by other politicians on his team because he was seen as weak.  And that had consequences in an election.  He resigned in 1963, two years into his fourth term.  He lived until 1967, into his early 90's.

I'm very glad this was settled now.  Apart from the issue of whether Biden could have won in November, it would have become increasingly awkward for Biden as POTUS in 2025 and beyond.  And regardless of his actual health, there would have been constant political attacks about his age.

That said, if Harris wins I could see Biden playing a role as elder statesman, either formally or informally.  As Chris Coons just said, Biden is probably the American alive today with the most foreign policy experience, and the longest and best relationships with many foreign leaders.  I think Biden is absolutely right that only he could have rebuilt and expanded NATO.  Although Putin sure helped.

Thanks, @stevenkesslar.  👍

You always dig deeper into issues and background than I've got the time and ability to do, and it provides valuable context and insight.

Your 'elder statesman' role for Biden is really appealing.  I think how lucky we are to have experienced and committed folks like Pelosi and Sanders and (if he follows your advice) Biden.

And, if he needs a nap from time to time, I'd be happy to fluff his pillows.  

[unicorn]

1 hour ago, stevenkesslar said:

...Anyway, I hope we can let it die. ...

I knew you wouldn't apologize about your lie when you stated that I knew Biden had Parkinson's, when I didn't make that statement. You're just being you. Only you have the arrogance to claim to know the unknowable (namely, Biden's medical records). At least I have the honesty to acknowledge when I'm making inferences about what is known. And only you are foolish enough to believe unsubstantiated statements (i.e. that Biden has "no diagnosis"), when such statements are obviously contradicted by what we do know. Of course, so many people believe that the earth was created in 6 days, though the facts say otherwise. 

[stevenkesslar]

27 minutes ago, unicorn said:

You're just being you.

Correct.  I went back and read this entire exchange.  I said nothing that was factually incorrect.  If I did, please quote me.

You said multiple things that were factually incorrect.  I quoted those.  You were wrong.  

I'm not going to apologize for you being wrong. 

By the way, since you want to have at it, the idea that Michelle Obama was going to replace Biden was equally silly.  It reflected the fact that you just had no idea what you were talking about.  If you were even mildly aware of what is happening one inch below the surface, the way the entire Democratic Party has unified around Kamala Harris was completely predictable.  And also very good for our chances of beating Trump. 

Keep speculating about whatever it is you want to speculate about.  But please try to realize it is speculation, not fact.

[unicorn]

On 7/21/2024 at 12:32 PM, stevenkesslar said:

...You are saying he has Parkinsons...

This is a lie, since you keep bringing it up. I cannot know for certain his diagnosis, obviously, since I don't have access to his medical records. His movements are definitely consistent with PD (which is common at his age), but could also represent Lewy Body Dementia (which is quite similar), Progressive Supranuclear Palsy, or other conditions. What I can say, with almost complete certainty, is that he doesn't have "no diagnosis," as you claim (without access to Biden's medical records). 

[stevenkesslar]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

This is a lie, since you keep bringing it up. I cannot know for certain his diagnosis, obviously, since I don't have access to his medical records. His movements are definitely consistent with PD (which is common at his age), but could also represent Lewy Body Dementia (which is quite similar), Progressive Supranuclear Palsy, or other conditions. What I can say, with almost complete certainty, is that he doesn't have "no diagnosis," as you claim (without access to Biden's medical records). 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Letter7.8.24.pdf

Again, you are factually incorrect.  I'm really trying to end this.  It is boring, and repetitive.  But when you keep saying things that are wrong, I think it is appropriate to keep saying you have now, yet again, said more false things.

You obviously think that the letter from Biden's doctor can't be trusted.  You have stated, or implied in your condescending tone, that I am a fool to think that what Biden, or his doctor, or his press secretary say, actually can be trusted.

And yet, there is a letter from a doctor that spells it all out.  One might think a medical professional might consider what an actual doctor treating Biden says.  Just like one might think a medical professional like you might consider what Reagan's doctors actually said before you stated Reagan had dementia while he was POTUS.  But no.  You just love to speculate.

So speculate away.  But please be aware that the actual doctor treating Biden did not diagnose him earlier this year with any of the things you stated above.  You can ignore all that, if you wish.  Call me a fool.  But I would rather take Biden's doctor for his word than take your uninformed speculation as fact.

This does matter because right now other uninformed political hacks, like Speaker Johnson and Sen. Vance, are pushing "baloney" about how Biden should resign immediately based on some undiagnosed medical condition his doctor says he doesn't have.  

[RockyRoadTravel]

What does Biden do next?  In the Harris term, two years as the US Ambassador to the UN?  His mind is fine, and they have elevators. 

[unicorn]

5 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

...  I'm really trying to end this...  

Then it's really very simple. You said that I said Biden had Parkinson's. That was a lie. Be a man, admit it, and apologize. Oh, but you're not a man. Sorry. (While the letter is irrelevant to the fact that you lied, you're one of the few people dumb enough to take it at face value. Do you really believe all of the stupid shit Trump's doctor says?)

[stevenkesslar]

8 minutes ago, unicorn said:

Do you really believe all of the stupid shit Trump's doctor says?

The letter was from Biden's doctor.  And, yes, I really believe all the stupid shit Biden's doctor says.

But I guess I am stupid to trust a doctor.  You of all people would know that one should not trust what a doctor says just because he says it.  😉

[unicorn]

23 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

The letter was from Biden's doctor.  And, yes, I really believe all the stupid shit Biden's doctor says.

But I guess I am stupid...

Your friends agree with you

P.S. Carnac the magnificent predicts that the diagnosis will be made public within the next few years. He also predicts you won't admit what a fool you were in this string.

[stevenkesslar]

45 minutes ago, unicorn said:

P.S. Carnac the magnificent predicts that the diagnosis will be made public within the next few years. He also predicts you won't admit what a fool you were in this string.

That may well be true. 

I keep saying things that are intended to tone it down, and stress where we agree.  So let me spell that out. 

We both agreed that Biden was too old to serve another four year term.  Turns out 70 % or so of voters, including most Democrats like us, agreed.  So Biden is gone as nominee.  That's good news, I think.  So far, the early read is that the party is on fire!

You may be right that at some future point Biden will be diagnosed with some cognitive impairment.  In fact, tomorrow Trump may be shot dead.  The day after, Kamala may be run over by a truck.  Things do change.

We actually have a recent historical precedent.  For much or all of Reagan's two terms many people said he had dementia.  But, as it turns out, he was tested for it in 1989, and he was found not to have dementia.  And in 1990.  And in 1991.  And in 1992.  And in 1993.  So for five years after he was no longer POTUS, you could make a wonderful argument that Reagan has dementia.  You just could not base it on a medical diagnosis.  Then, in 1994, Reagan was diagnosed with Alzheimers.

So we could speculate all we want about whether Biden may be diagnosed with any impairment you want to name at any future point in time.  But it is only speculation.  You can also speculate that the diagnosis has already been made, and there is a conspiracy to keep it from the public.  It's still just speculation.

The thing that was so emotionally gut wrenching about this, I suspect especially for the long term friends and close colleagues who Biden feels betrayed him, is that it does have a very big stench of ageism to it.  Biden was picked on simply because he is an old man.  Other than that, it's all just bullshit.   

One point Laurence O'Donnell made tonight is that Trump could not possibly have pulled off that one hour NATO press conference.  I emphatically agree with him.  As Biden himself argued, it is proof that he is not senile.  Trump would have made a complete ass of himself, and said many ignorant things.  More important, Trump's NATO policy strikes lots of people as stabbing America and our allies in the back, while he licks Putin's ass.  So in my mind there is no doubt that I would rather have an old and weak looking Biden who gets the policy right, even if he coughs and mumbles, than Trump stabbing America in the back.  To me it's a no brainer.  Trump is the bat shit crazy one.  Period.  I'll say again I would love to see Biden stick around after Kamala wins as an elder statesman on a few foreign policy issues, like Ukraine and Israel.

The only way I can rationalize what happened is that politics is both a team sport, and a blood sport.  You have not been involved in politics much, either as a campaigner or as an activist or as a lobbyist.  I have.  I know many stories of politicians I knew at every level who had to make hard decisions, like to retire or not run for an office.  Or who were simply cut loose for some political reason that didn't seem fair or right to them.  That is what the whole world just saw happen to Joe Biden.  It's really not about his health.  It's about perceptions of his health, his age, and his strength.   It's about politics. 

It won't surprise me if one outcome of this is we do whatever we have to do to put an age limit on the Presidency, just like after FDR we put term limits in place.  As long as Biden and Trump are around, that's not viable.  When Trump loses, lots of younger Democrats and Republicans would have a great reason to support it.

But you disagree with me, which is fine.  You believe Biden is hiding a medical diagnosis from the public, and eventually the conspiracy will be revealed.  Let's leave it at that.

Mostly, we should both be happy.  The Democratic Party is happy again!

 

 

[unicorn]

12 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

That may well be true... I keep saying things that are intended to tone it down...  

Dude, you constantly use insulting language when arguing with others, and definitely not just with me. Calling someone a "right wing crank" is not said with the intention of toning things down. When @Moses chimed in, you deflected around Putin's atrocities, which have nothing to do with this string, nor of anything he was saying. I don't expect someone who isn't a physician, RN, or PA-C to know, but one cannot "test negative" for Alzheimer's, or any other form of dementia. It's not like you can tell someone you had a negative blood test for syphilis, or a positive urine test for gonorrhea. 

As I've mentioned previously, the diagnosis has to be based on the patient's past and current behavior. The MOCA questionnaire is a tool that can sometimes assist in making the diagnosis, but it's certainly neither necessary nor sufficient for the diagnosis. It works very poorly, for example, for those with IQ's under 100 or over 140. One item in the test asks someone to subtract 7 from 100 (and keep going). Well, I've had patients who dropped out of school in the 4th grade and were never able to hold down a job. They'll do very poorly on that test, so one has to go by other clues. 

Therefore, anyone who says that he or someone else "tested negative" for dementia is merely trying to deceive. In the last year or two of his Presidency, Reagan was clearly stumbling over his words, saying some pretty silly stuff (as Trump and Biden are doing now). This was a clearly observable change, and solid evidence of a significant loss of cognitive function. I certainly wasn't the only person to notice. The fact that he or his family only chose to share the diagnosis years later is certainly not evidence the illness wasn't present earlier. Reagan pointedly stayed out of the public eye after leaving office, probably for good reason. 

It may very well be that Biden has not been diagnosed with Parkinson's. However, I can't imagine that he hasn't been diagnosed with something, and if it's not Parkinson's, it's probably something far worse. His neurological deficits are quite obvious. Today's "Candorville" strip hit it on the nose:

[Suckrates]

My God, this tit for tat argument over Bidens medical record and condition has been going on for so long, they have found a CURE for Alzheimers.....

Come on guys,  give it a rest......its a new day and a new candidate..... time to focus on that.   

[stevenkesslar]

16 minutes ago, unicorn said:

It may very well be that Biden has not been diagnosed with Parkinson's.

Thank you.