want "NO LIE MAN"

[Guest luvthai]

More and more of the personals on Gay Romeo contain the words if "you lie man" not message to me.

This brings up the question, what are we telling or promising these boys to get them in bed? I know there can be a huge communication problem but somewhere somehow we are comming across as just liars. I always try to be careful in what I say and have had some problems when the boys bring up things on there own and then get upset when I didn't agree. I have also met farangs and gone out with them only to find they didn't respect the boys and only wanted to use them. I drop these friends pretty fast but still the idea that all farangs are not truthfull is out there.

[Guest tdperhs]

In my situation, there is absolutely no need to lie, at least to the boys (3) or girls (2) with whom I share my libidinous experiences. Before we even meet for sex, I make sure each one knows that I am in it strictly for the sex and he/she can probably count on one or two sessions per month.

It should be said that, none of these five - nor the number six whom I've got my eye on - is a sex worker or works in a bar. These are just people who would like to make a few extra baht once in a while to supplement their incomes. One is a cook at KFC, two are university students, one waitress in a Farang restaurant and a tuk tuk driver who is on the night shift with the family business. All but one are friends of my housekeeper. When they come in and drop their keys on my night table, I slip a folded 1000 bt note under the keys. Depending on what the individual has going that afternoon or morning, he/she often stays for an hour or more after sex. Sometimes they join me to shop for food, show me where I can save money at some of the markets. Other times they spend playing with my dog (lucky son of a bitch) or chatting with the housekeeper (also a lucky son of a bitch, though not quite so literally).

I also believe that anybody who feels he has to lie to a Thai romance partner is lying to himself. My own personal experiences aside, I believe lying to a paramour is an attempt to perpetuate a relationship that probably has no future.

Now I'm not going to tell you I've never done it. I have a black belt in lying to paramours from Hamburg to Taipei. But it goes with being young and stupid. Now, I'm old and stupid. But it's a different kind of stupid so I am tolerated for it. And what is the stupidity, being arrogant enough to tell the truth.

The bottom line is this: if you are lying to those boys, you think its important to lie to them. If you think it's important to lie to them, you are probably lying to yourself.

[Gaybutton]

Based on what so many boys tell me, they get a lot of promises that are never kept. The most common are farang who tell the boy they love him and convinces the boy he now has a relationship. Also there are promises of money every month, promises to pay for school, to help them set up a small business, to pay their rent for them, and all kinds of other things.

 

In many cases the farang really did become infatuated with the boy while he was here on a holiday and meant what he promised. But then he goes home to his reality, realizes he was in a dream world while in Thailand, and either does what he promised for a few months and then just stops or doesn't live up to any of the promises at all.

 

The rarity is the farang who actually does do all he promised and continues to do so.

 

So, the boy is left high and dry, often heartbroken as well. Often the boy has become dependent on the money 'his farang' sends to him. When it suddenly stops, now the boy has no money to pay his rent or anything else. Few of them ever save any money. Many send whatever they can back home to mama, and Hell will freeze over before mama ever gives enough back to the boy so he at least can pay his room rent.

 

Every month I get "I not have money for room" calls. Often it's their own fault because they spent whatever they had. But just as often it's because their farang dropped them and they really don't have the money because of it. I would think a person with any reasonable regard for others would at least give the boy one or two months notice before stopping the money if that's what he intends to do, but few ever give them any kind of notice at all.

 

I remember one incident in which the farang was in Thailand only for a portion of the year, but he had the boy living with him in his rented apartment. When he was gone, the boy still was able to live there. The farang eventually dropped the boy, but never said anything to him. The farang also stopped paying the rent. The boy had no idea. I still clearly remember the tearful call from the boy when he went home one day only to find the apartment locked and the management wouldn't even let him in to retrieve his personal belongings. It took weeks to finally get his stuff out of there. Similar incidents are all too common.

 

While it is true that many of these boys are only out for all the money they can get, and they too are not above lying their asses off to get it, it is also true that many are quite sincere about wanting a relationship and fully intend to use the money as they said it would be used.

 

Over the years I've had many boys come to me in tears when their farang simply dropped them. Most of the time it's some sort of a money issue. Sometimes it's something else, but most of the time it's a money issue.

 

So, what they're essentially trying to say in their Gay Romeo profiles is, "Please don't make promises to me that you're not going to keep."

[Guest lvdkeyes]

To me lying is a despicable act that only ends up hurting someone. In the past I have been lied to and suffered for it. I have since learned that if I ever catch anyone in a lie, even the most insignificant or benign the may be, I am done with them. This may seem harsh for a "little white lie", but if a guy lies to you once, he will most certainly lie again. Subsequent lies may not be so harmless.

[Guest fountainhall]

if a guy lies to you once, he will most certainly lie again.

I want to turn this slightly on its head for a moment. I once had a boyfriend who was as honest as anyone I have known. The problem was he often insisted on telling me things which I felt would be better unsaid - especially things which might hurt me or make me feel uncomfortable. I have had to spend part of my career as what is termed a "public figure" - meaning I had to be available for media interviews and making public speeches. I quickly learned that one must never lie. However, I also learned that one has no choice but always to be diplomatic and frequently 'selective with the truth'. This can convey the impression that things are not quite what they seem - but it is not lying.

 

I tried to explain to my bf on many occasions that there are some matters/issues/problems which need not be raised with me, that he should think of how I might react before he told me and be selective with the truth. Once, when planning a holiday in Italy, he told me he had recently bumped into a man he had known before he met me - and he found he was now very attracted to him. This made me miserable for days - and nearly ruined the holiday. I told him this was something I did not need to know - unless he was planning to do something other than think about that attraction. He did not see it that way. He felt he had to be open about it or he would effectively be lying to me. Was he right?

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

He felt he had to be open about it or he would effectively be lying to me. Was he right?

 

Yes.

[Gaybutton]

I agree with xiandarkthorne. If he had not told you, that's when you would have something to worry about. He's attracted to him. So what? I don't understand why that would upset you. I see plenty of guys I find very attractive every day, but that doesn't mean I would betray an established boyfriend. I believe if your boyfriend was even contemplating cheating on you, then he never would have said anything.

 

But let's not let this topic go off on a tangent just yet. I'm very interested in what others have to say about "No Lie Man."

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Lying and just not telling everything are two different matters all together.

[Guest kcampb49]

 

But let's not let this topic go off on a tangent just yet. I'm very interested in what others have to say about "No Lie Man."

 

 

I know of instances where farang have promised much and delivered on little, if anything. I also know plenty of instances where Thai's lie about anything and everything to get you to an ATM.

 

However, at least sometimes misunderstandings arise from language/communication problems i.e. limited knowledge of Thai by the farang and limited knowledge of English by the Thai. A little proficiency in conversational English can easily lead one to believe that a Thai person has greater understanding of English than they do.

 

One time I was talking with a farang friend in my favorite bar with the bartender and a couple of servers listening. My friend was asking me IF I MIGHT be interested in doing/going somewhere on a day later in the week (sorry, I don't remember the exact details now). At some point he asked the Thai guys (who we both know pretty well and like) that IF we went, MIGHT they be interested in going too. The answer was yes but at no time did my friend say to me or anyone else that he was definitely going. We were just "kicking around" the idea and I believe that would have been obvious to any native speaker of English (at least American English).

 

My friend never contacted me about going again so I assumed he had decided not to and, if fact, that is what happened. I didn't think anything about it until I was in the bar a few days later and one of the guys said they had waited and waited for us on that night but we never came. I was mortified! The last thing I want is to be viewed, especially by these guys, as "just another lying farang." I tried to explain that no decision to go had been made and apologized for the misunderstanding and they were very gracious, as Thai's usually are - Mai Pen Rai - (whether they really understood or believed me is another question). Another reminder to be very, very clear by asking more than once in more ways than one, that everyone understands intent and expectations.

[Gaybutton]

However, at least sometimes misunderstandings arise from language/communication problems

Many farang insist upon speaking English to Thais just as if they are talking with another native English speaker, complete with the speed of the words, slang, figures of speech, idioms, etc. Then they can't figure out why the Thai person didn't understand.

 

Usually the justification I hear for that is the Thai person won't really learn English unless you speak English the way you would with native English speakers. That's fine and seems to work rather well when already in a relationship with a Thai. You become accustomed to being able to tell whether or not your Thai friend is grasping the meaning. Other than that I disagree.

 

The way I see it, when it comes to making sure I am fully understood, I'll use "Thainglish" every time. There are times when it is far more important to be certain you are understood than it is to be giving an English lesson.

 

For me, the only exception to that would be when I am speaking with a Thai I have known a long time, long enough to have become used to what I know he does and does not understand.

 

Another factor that I have observed to be the case: Farang are far more likely to tell a Thai boy he didn't understand than a Thai boy is to tell a farang he didn't understand. Quite often I notice many Thai boys are reluctant to let the farang know they didn't understand. Instead they'll act as if they did understand and then hope for the best.

[Guest fountainhall]

Many farang insist upon speaking English to Thais just as if they are talking with another native English speaker, complete with the speed of the words, slang, figures of speech, idioms, etc. Then they can't figure out why the Thai person didn't understand . . . The way I see it, when it comes to making sure I am fully understood, I'll use "Thainglish" every time. There are times when it is far more important to be certain you are understood than it is to be giving an English lesson.

After living in several Asian countries for more than 30 years, GB is absolutely right on this. When someone to whom you are speaking or typing has a limited command of your language, you must adjust both the way you speak/write and the thought process behind it. As posters are aware, I tend to write in fairly long sentences, often with a number of sub-clauses etc.. I am told I often speak that way. But when I am chatting on-line or with someone I know has limited english, I mentally strip what I want to say down to its essence, get rid of sub-clauses, idioms etc., so as to use as simple words and short sentences - or even just phrases - as I can. It works, but it takes some effort to begin with.

 

The other issue is humour. I have a farang friend who does indeed communicate well when with boys in a bar. But then he gets too enthusiastic and starts making jokes. When the boy signals he does not understand, this friend makes matters more complicated by trying to explain the joke. Better in my view to just say "mai pen rai" and forget it.

[Bob]

We were just "kicking around" the idea and I believe that would have been obvious to any native speaker of English (at least American English).

 

 

Even before I read this sentence, I knew where this story was going. While I agree with you about the need to be "clearer" when discussing such things, the problem really is one really of language and expectations. If you say anything to Thai boys to the effect of "would you like to do 'X'" or "someday maybe we will do 'X'", you're effectively promising them that it will happen. Whether it's partly a language issue or partly cultural (which I suspect plays a role), that's how they perceive it.

 

Thais use certain language to politely say "no" or to express that they don't want to discuss the issue further and many falang often totally miss the nuance (this being somewhat discussed in a recent thread on this board). At the same time, I do think we westerners use certain language (a Thai boy says something like "will you buy me a car" or "will you take me to Hong Kong") to politely say "no" (we say things like "maybe", "you never know", or "maybe someday") and I do think the Thai boys hear more of a "yes" there than we were intending. Almost better to say "I don't think so" or simply to not answer and change the subject.

[Gaybutton]

I do think the Thai boys hear more of a "yes" there than we were intending. Almost better to say "I don't think so" or simply to not answer and change the subject.

I disagree. We farang tend to consider ourselves pretty good at figuring out how Thais interpret what we say and do and seem to feel we should adjust ourselves accordingly. I don't think so. The Thais are just as good at figuring out what we mean. Farang do not hold a monopoly on being savvy or realizing that different cultures and languages can cause misunderstandings of intent. Thais possess the same capabilities. I think the responsibility of making sure the other party clearly understands is a responsibility held by both parties, not solely farang. I think they're a lot smarter than many farang give them credit for.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I think they're a lot smarter than many farang give them credit for.

Amen to that. How else would they be able to fleece so many farang and have the farang be happy to have them do it?

[Bob]

I think the responsibility of making sure the other party clearly understands is a responsibility held by both parties, not solely farang. I think they're a lot smarter than many farang give them credit for.

 

Nobody, at least not me, has suggested they are dumb (or not "smart"). Some are, some aren't (just like falang). And while I can understand you're suggesting that it's both parties' obligation to a conversation to make sure the other person understands, I sometimes try to remember that they are speaking a second language that many of them don't know all that well. Even with my bf of almost 10 years - who speaks English rather well - I'm frequently reminded that even we slightly misunderstand each other from time to time (usually due to my use of English idioms and his lack of perfect fluency in English). Some of that - although not a lot - is also caused by the sometimes erroneous way English is taught in Thai schools (even at the university level).

 

As concerns whether the barboys of Pattaya or elsewhere are wily, that's, as they say, another kettle of fish.

[Gaybutton]

Nobody, at least not me, has suggested they are dumb (or not "smart").

Yes, I understand that and I have no disagreement with that aspect of what you are saying. My disagreement is that your post, the way I'm reading it, is that the problems arise due to cultural differences. You said, "you're effectively promising them that it will happen." I have never experienced any Thais making that kind of interpretation. I believe you have experienced that kind of interpretation or you would have had no reason to say what you did.

 

That's the problem and that's why I think it is the responsibility of both parties to make sure they are fully understood. I don't think it should necessarily be up to the farang to make sure the Thai understands without the Thai being equally responsible for making sure the farang understands what he is expecting.

 

That same kind of problem is something we frequently see posted when a farang tells a bar boy what he wants prior to agreeing to take him off. A common complaint is the boy didn't do whatever it was he agreed to do. If the boy intentionally misled the farang, that's one thing and the farang has a legitimate complaint, but if problems occurred because of misunderstanding each other, then at least one of them failed to make sure he was fully understood. I see the same thing as applying to your post.

[Guest joseph44]

Boy want "no lie farang"

Farang want "no lie boy"

Both merely impossible!

[Guest luvthai]

How do you handle it when the boy says "SEX SEX SEX' thats is all you talk about, NOW I no want to talk sex?

My initial reaction was to say no problem I no talk sex you no talk money! I must admit tho that after a couple days he was talking sex again.

[Bob]

My use of the word "culture" was, perhaps, slightly wrong. What I was trying to say there (and I'll probably screw it up again) is that there are certain ingrained methods of thinking (or not thinking) at work. Their educational system hardly encourages any analytical thinking and they're also raised to be rather deferential to their elders (thus lessening the chance they're going persist in questioning us in an attempt to obtain a clear understanding).

 

Regardless, while I can understand you saying that both the thai boy and the falang bear responsibility for making sure there is clear understanding between them, I'd still argue that the bulk of the responsibility is on the falang (at least with respect to the average Thai boy a falang is going to run into.....and perhaps even more so with a newer recruit from Isaan or Laos); after all, it is English we're attempting to communicate with and many/most of them are hardly proficient with that language.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I have to agree with Bob. I think it is a bit arrogant to come to a foreign country and expect the locals to fully understand us in our language without us making sure we are understood.

[Guest]

Boy want "no lie farang"

Farang want "no lie boy"

Both merely impossible!

 

I think this is the most accurate description I have seen on the Internet.

 

How do you handle it when the boy says "SEX SEX SEX' thats is all you talk about, NOW I no want to talk sex?

My initial reaction was to say no problem I no talk sex you no talk money! I must admit tho that after a couple days he was talking sex again.

 

LOL That is good!

 

I have to agree with Bob. I think it is a bit arrogant to come to a foreign country and expect the locals to fully understand us in our language without us making sure we are understood.

 

I agree. Although, I admit I often find myself getting upset if the BF doesn't understand me in my language. I try to remember that he is not from an English speaking country.

[Gaybutton]

I have to agree with Bob. I think it is a bit arrogant to come to a foreign country and expect the locals to fully understand us in our language without us making sure we are understood.

In general, maybe so. But when it comes to dealing with Thai boys who are trying to sell themselves to farang, who deal and communicate with farang on a regular basis, who are trying to involve themselves with farang, then it's a different story and that increases their share of the responsibility. I don't think a language barrier is much of an excuse when a Thai tells me "yes," when what he should have told me is "I don't understand."

 

If you and I can figure out that the way we do things and interpret things can often be entirely different from the way the Thais do, then I fail to see why anyone would think they can't figure out the same thing. I think they're a lot smarter than that and a lot more capable than many of us give them credit for.

[Bob]

If you and I can figure out that the way we do things and interpret things can often be entirely different from the way the Thais do, then I fail to see why anyone would think they can't figure out the same thing.

 

If you're talking about barboys in Pattaya, I can't really believe you just said that. Come on, GB, you surely are very familiar with their English language skills.

 

And besides their poor English (in general...not all of the them), it would seem their motivation is quite different. The customer might want to make sure the boy will bottom but the boy is simply trying to earn top (or any) dollar. He'll smile and probably not question anything (unless you try to undertip him!). And, yea, a some of them may very well be intentionally deceptive to get the money (in a sense, I almost don't blame some of them for that as I do believe they generally think that falang are lying bastards anyway...haha).

[Guest Patexpat]

I don't think a language barrier is much of an excuse when a Thai tells me "yes," when what he should have told me is "I don't understand."

 

Now GB you've been around long enough to know a Thai would lose an enormous amount of face by admitting 'I don't understand'!

 

And I'm sure you are able to discern when a Thai says YES and means NO .... ? Very common but you need to read the subtleties - which I'm sure you are more than capable of!

 

hmmm .. may be worth posting this on the 'what newbies need to know' thread!

[Guest fountainhall]

And I'm sure you are able to discern when a Thai says YES and means NO .... ? Very common but you need to read the subtleties

So true! This one took me ages to figure out - and it basically relates to the way you form the question.

 

How do you handle it when the boy says "SEX SEX SEX' thats is all you talk about, NOW I no want to talk sex?

My general rule of thumb is not to talk about sex for the first 5 - 10 minutes or so. I tell him a bit about me and ask a bit about him. I then move on to the types of guy he likes, and from there slowly inch towards sex. I've frequently chatted with guys and got the "no sex" line at the start, but after 10 minutes, sex is all they're into. If I'm the one to initiate the sex question and detect that the reply is slower in arriving, I'll jump in and say I hope I'm not hurting his feelings. That seems to be a great ice-breaker, for some reason.

 

I've also often heard from many Thais that they hate the first exchange being of the "You're so cute I want to f--k you tonight" variety. This seems to be a not uncommon opener with farang not actually living in Thailand.