Guest fountainhall Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 I am really surprised that they took this way to get out of their dilemma, as it makes the despots running this country look more ridiculous then usual. It's interesting how what must have seemed like a simple case of catching a pedophile and making Thailand look good in the world has totally backfired on the country. Every single news article from the world's press that I have seen on the internet ends its report with 2 or 3 paragraphs highlighting Thailand's reputation as a haven for pedophiles. So, at the risk of repeating a point I made early in the thread, instead of getting across the message that the country is making efforts to clean itself up, the exact opposite has occurred. The sex haven reputation has been reinforced. And now, with an accused being thrown out of the country and denied the opportunity to answer the charges in court, the country's legal system will be ridiculed - again worldwide. Quote
Guest Hedda Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 I have not posted on Thai politics here for a long time, the reasons for which are well known by this board's regulars. After reading some of the expressions of outrage expressed in this thread over the plight of one alleged expat pedophile at the hands of the Thai judicial system, however, I could not resist the need to ask: where the hell have you guys been while this system has been going down the drain for years? Why did it take the arrest and treatment of one alleged expat pedophile to wake this board's regulars to the rapid decay of civil rights and justice in Thailand? Has it occurred to any of the posters so upset by what has happened to one Russian at the hands of the current judicial system, that far worse has been happening regularly and methodically to thousands of Thais, simply because of their politics? If you think that throwing one expat,who has been living and traveling freely on bail since charges were first made,out of Thailand without affording him a trial is outrageous, what about the hundreds of red shirts who have been imprisoned without charges, without bail and without trial,on the bald accusation of an unknown accuser that they are terrorists? Might we ask those of you who are so outraged that one Russian has been unfairly branded and tried by the press as being a pedophile, why you have been so silent about the thousands of Thais who have been regularly smeared as terrorists daily by the same press? When you indignantly express the hope that this case will cause "the international media to switch its focus to how Thailand dispenses what it calls 'justice," I have to conclude that you either never read that press or you think that justice for Thai people is not a matter of concern. Perhaps farangs whose bias against PM Thaksin and/or the red shirt movement has caused them to ignore or even defend the steady decline of civil rights in this country, will finally wake up to realize that justice denied to one red shirt for being an alleged terrorist is no less an outrage than justice denied to one Russian for being an alleged pedophile. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 After reading some of the expressions of outrage expressed in this thread over the plight of one alleged expat pedophile at the hands of the Thai judicial system, however, I could not resist the need to ask: where the hell have you guys been while this system has been going down the drain for years? KhorTose has already made almost this same point earlier in the thread. Where I see the humor is that you are upset about just this case, where I think almost everything this government has done lately stinks, and I am not the least bit surprised by fiascoes like this. Justice of any kind is a joke in this country, for all but the connected. I readily admit that I am more interested in this case because I happen to be interested in classical music, know of Mr Pletnev's career and been at his performances. I would like to see it go to trial so that the details of the case would be made public and we could hear both sides before a judgement is delivered. And I think you have to agree that, whether you or I like it or not, the Pletnev case has aroused worldwide interest. Few media around the world bothered to explore the reasons for the red shirt movement, being concerned only with the closure of a huge chunk of the centre of Bangkok and the resultant damage that was being done to Thailand's image overseas. I happen to think the Pletnev case may well achieve much more in drawing international attention to the faults in the justice system here than any red shirt protests. I also accepted that I could have been more outspoken in other matters regarding the lack of justice in general in this country. I will try in future to be less judgemental in that area. I admit, too, that I have a bias against Thaksin, for reasons which I have outlined in detail on another thread. These are less to do with politics and more about how he abused his position and his power. These views I can not change because I have seen enough 'evidence' to make up my mind. As to the red shirt movement, I will approach the issue in future with a more open mind. Quote
Guest voldemar Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 After reading some of the expressions of outrage expressed in this thread over the plight of one alleged expat pedophile at the hands of the Thai judicial system, Why did it take the arrest and treatment of one alleged expat pedophile to wake this board's regulars to the rapid decay of civil rights and justice in Thailand? Has it occurred to any of the posters so upset by what has happened to one Russian at the hands of the current judicial system, that far worse has been happening regularly and methodically to thousands of Thais, simply because of their politics? Might we ask those of you who are so outraged that one Russian has been unfairly branded and tried by the press as being a pedophile, why you have been so silent about the thousands of Thais who have been regularly smeared as terrorists daily by the same press? While I am sympathetic with your views, Hedda, You are clearly wrong in accusing Thai judicial system in failing Pletnev case: Thai judicial system had no chance to act in case in question, if the rumors about Pletnev deportation are correct. Do not confuse the actions of Thai government and forces behind it with actions by Thai courts. This is not only true in Pletnev case, but also in Thaksin saga. In fact, I see certain improvement in functioning Thai court system in recent years and signs (albeit quite weak) of growing independence of those who are de facto ruling Thailand. In case of Pletnev I tend to believe that the man is not without sin and the deportation as rumored will probably one of the best possible outcome for him under circumstances. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 In case of Pletnev I tend to believe that the man is not without sin and the deportation as rumored will probably one of the best possible outcome for him under circumstances. I am not sure where you live, voldemar. I get the impression that it may be Russia, If so, you are in a unique position in getting the Russian perspective. As far as previous charges are concerned, I have already expressed my concern at the Russian media source which made them. Now my views are perhaps reinforced by another Russian report on this particular case which has been followed by the Pattaya Daily News. Today it reports what even the PDN reporter agrees is an obvious scam set-up by a Russian TV station, including video of a boy reported to be 14 but who is clearly many years older, cannot get his 'facts' straight and is clearly being coached in his answers. Take a look at the vdo on the PDN article below. I cannot believe this is the 14 year old who has accused Pletnev. If so, case over as far as I am concerned. But the Russian media do seem to have their knives out for Pletnev. Any ideas why, voldemar? Higher Bail Allows Pletnev to Again Leave Thailand | Pattaya Daily News - Pattaya Newspaper, Powerful news at your fingertips Quote
Gaybutton Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 The last sentence in that article says, "Mr. Pletnevs Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 That, at least,makes a little more sense. And yet, does it? Yesterday we were seeming to agree that someone high up did not want this case to go to Court because perhaps there is something they do not wish out in the public domain. If it does eventually get to trial, that theory bites the dust. It also makes the decision to bar him from Thailand if he is found innocent even more ridiculous. The reason given is "that his behaviour is detrimental to Thailand." So far the only behaviour detrimental to Thailand has been that of the authorities who leaked his arrest in advance to the media thereby ensuring worldwide coverage of Thailand's reputation as a sex haven. But they can't be blamed because that's not the Thai way! I cannot believe the Immigration Chief based the decision on anything material to the case, because we know it was made before he heard from the Child Welfare NGO. So it has to be something else. Quote
Guest voldemar Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 I am not sure where you live, voldemar. I get the impression that it may be Russia, If so, you are in a unique position in getting the Russian perspective. As far as previous charges are concerned, I have already expressed my concern at the Russian media source which made them. Now my views are perhaps reinforced by another Russian report on this particular case which has been followed by the Pattaya Daily News. Today it reports what even the PDN reporter agrees is an obvious scam set-up by a Russian TV station, including video of a boy reported to be 14 but who is clearly many years older, cannot get his 'facts' straight and is clearly being coached in his answers. Take a look at the vdo on the PDN article below. I cannot believe this is the 14 year old who has accused Pletnev. If so, case over as far as I am concerned. But the Russian media do seem to have their knives out for Pletnev. Any ideas why, voldemar? Higher Bail Allows Pletnev to Again Leave Thailand | Pattaya Daily News - Pattaya Newspaper, Powerful news at your fingertips I do not live in Russia but I can read and speak Russian and I can assure you that Russian press and TV treats Pletnev quite fairly. The last article I just read in Komsomolskaya Pravda confirms that Pletnev already returned in Russia to celebrate 89 birthday of his mother. It confirms that Pletnev visa was revoked and he was blacklisted in Thailand. It further states with reference to some Thai police official that he will be allowed to return to Thailand. According to this official this is a standard procedure in case of accusations similar to Pletnev which usually used to prevent accused to leave the country. The official states that Pletnev will be able to return to Thailand on recurrent basis, since he needs to report to the court every 12 days. He can return to Thailand , since Russians can stay in Thailand for 15 days without visa. Now, as far as I know blacklisted people cannot enter Thailand. In any case, the procedure looks unsustainable: Pletnev needs to fly to Thailand every 12 days or so and then leave Thailand after 15 days... In my opinion, Thais let Pletnev know that he should not return and I essentially did not change my mind about the case. Pletnev belongs to Russian elite and in modern Russia (which is not exactly gay friendly) he nevertheless untouchable. His status is similar to, say, Nikita Mikhalkov (quite well-known Russian film producer) and he cannot be put on trial in Russia. That is, by the way, in contrast with former Soviet Union where (following Stalin traditions) nobody was absolutely safe. In modern Russia, it is different (but various groups within ruling mafia prefer to settle the scores privately, if needed). What I see in Russian press is a total spin in Pletnev favor orchestrated from above. Now, the views may be different among Russian bloggers and less official part of mass media but nobody pays attention to this kind of 'noise'. I can assure you that what you saw in PDN does not reflect official viewpoint of Russian government and in modern Russia that is the only thing that counts... Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 I can assure you that Russian press and TV treats Pletnev quite fairly . . . I can assure you that what you saw in PDN does not reflect official viewpoint of Russian government and in modern Russia that is the only thing that counts... Thank you for very valuable information and correcting the views that I have been hearing mainly from internet sources. I guess we all have to wait now to find out if he does indeed return at the end of next week. Quote
PattayaMale Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 As I understand there have been several foreigners that have been charged, detained in jail because they could not afford bail, and a year or so. When the case finally gets to trial the accused has been found not guilty. Can you imagine if you, were innocent, and put in this position. Pletnev has the funds and contacts. If this proves to be a set up, The child and womens protection agency will be looked at with skepticism. In the USA there is now a case where a black director of the USDA was fired because a conservative posted a statement out of context on his blog. Turns out, she was giving a very good speech about how discrimination can be changed. This has become an embarrassment for President Obama, and the federal director who fired her and then tried to rehire her for a better job. When an agency needs funding it is usually in their best interests to show big cases and enough cases to justify their existence and need for more international funding. If it is found that an agency has been promoting "setups", it can lead to no funding. Revoking a business visa before a trial and judgement seems unfair, and also adds a bit of what looks like black mail. Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted July 24, 2010 Posted July 24, 2010 When an agency needs funding it is usually in their best interests to show big cases and enough cases to justify their existence and need for more international funding. If it is found that an agency has been promoting "setups", it can lead to no funding. Revoking a business visa before a trial and judgement seems unfair, and also adds a bit of what looks like black mail. You make an interesting point in your post, one that does in fact relate to the Pletnev case and I think has not yet appeared on this thread. I understand that the NGO involved in this case (I think it's called the Mother and Children's Welfare Agency), the one that has made all the loud-mouthed proclamations - remember the bold comments about how they have been working on the case for months, were furious the courts had let Mr Pletnev leave the country, and the howls of "I'll bet he'll never return" - has recently applied to the United Nations for additional funding. PattayaMale's comments about the US, big cases and funding seem even more eerily similar to the case here in Thailand. This is one issue that definitely needs investigating. Quote
Guest voldemar Posted July 29, 2010 Posted July 29, 2010 You make an interesting point in your post, one that does in fact relate to the Pletnev case and I think has not yet appeared on this thread. I understand that the NGO involved in this case (I think it's called the Mother and Children's Welfare Agency), the one that has made all the loud-mouthed proclamations - remember the bold comments about how they have been working on the case for months, were furious the courts had let Mr Pletnev leave the country, and the howls of "I'll bet he'll never return" - has recently applied to the United Nations for additional funding. PattayaMale's comments about the US, big cases and funding seem even more eerily similar to the case here in Thailand. This is one issue that definitely needs investigating. In a quite bizzare development, Russian Embassy in BKK announced that Pletnev's long term visa was not revoked and he was not "blacklisted" in Thailand. They refer to the same official in Thai immigration office who just several days ago announced the blacklisting. My interpretation of this event is that Thai's , in fact, reversed their decision after Russians put some pressure. I still believe that Russian-Thai negotiations are under the way and the case will be resolved to "mutual satisfaction'. Pletnev most probably will be whitewashed but I doubt that after that he will be welcome in Thailand. Interestingly, in recent interview in Russian press Pletnev hints that his problems are due to some Russian foes which in a bizzare way confirms what some of the Russian bloggers are saying. I, however, restrain from discussion of Russian blogs here: it is wacky... Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 It seems like posts have dried up in the wake of GT's announcement. But since some of us have been following this case from the outset, the latest news is that Mr Pletnev returned again to Thailand and reported to the Court this morning for the regular bail hearing. A police statement confirms what Pletnev has been saying all along re compromising evidence on his computer and in his home - a Thai police spokesman has said that no evidence supporting the charges has been found in Pletnev Quote
Guest fountainhall Posted August 6, 2010 Posted August 6, 2010 I see on the BBC website today that Mr. Pletnev will not be conducting his orchestra at this year's Edinburgh Festival and the London Prom concerts. He's just been replaced by another Russian conductor. These are amongst the top music festivals in the world. It is another indication that his troubles in Thailand are having a major effect on his career. Assuming he is innocent - and increasingly it seems that this is surely the case, given that the various offenses alleged by the powers-that-be have been falling by the wayside with some rapidity, I wonder if he can sue for defamation of character and loss of what will amount to very considerable income? Quote
Guest George Posted August 7, 2010 Posted August 7, 2010 I wonder if he can sue for defamation of character. In Thailand? You have got to be joking. I am having problems being justifiably compensated for being wrongfully imprisoned for 14 months, not to mention wrongful arrest. In addition to the above, I am still waiting to have my properety returned to me, among which is my computer and router, that was siezed during my arrest. I have been informed that it has been 'mislaid', and the police are 'doing their best' to locate it. Whilst I believe that my chances of ever recovering my property are pretty slim, I do think they are slightly higher than Pletnev's, of ever being successful in any defamation of character lawsuit. Cheers, George. Quote
PattayaMale Posted August 7, 2010 Posted August 7, 2010 In Thailand? You have got to be joking. I am having problems being justifiably compensated for being wrongfully imprisoned for 14 months, not to mention wrongful arrest. In addition to the above, I am still waiting to have my properety returned to me, among which is my computer and router, that was siezed during my arrest. I have been informed that it has been 'mislaid', and the police are 'doing their best' to locate it. Whilst I believe that my chances of ever recovering my property are pretty slim, I do think they are slightly higher than Pletnev's, of ever being successful in any defamation of character lawsuit. Cheers, George. If this has happened to several others, is there such a thing as an international class action suit? Quote
KhorTose Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 If this has happened to several others, is there such a thing as an international class action suit? No what there is out there is international condemnation of a corrupt government. Two things work against this. No people have been killed, but even when 91 were killed and the press got on it, not that many people were interested. After all, this is only Thailand and most of the world does not give a damn. Secondly, and by far the most important, all you have to do is shout child molestation and the whole world is on your side. Members of this government and some shady NGOs have already picked up on this fact. What a great way to raise funds, blackmail people and sound noble at the same time. Child molestation is a very serious crime. However, the people who use this crime to raise funds for their agencies, their police forces, and for personal gain or political advantage are just as despicable as the child molesters they claim to fight. In the long run these opportunist will cause a backlash that may even make society stop pursuing child molesters. This is by far the worse possible outcome of a crime that should be stopped, with the people who engage in it punished. However, as a codicil, I must add that they are good agencies and police forces that do seem to do a great job. One that I support is the British ran CEOP and there are others that I cannot think of at the moment. Quote
Guest voldemar Posted October 4, 2010 Posted October 4, 2010 I just saw an interesting program on Russian TV about Pletnev case. Apparently, the verdict was supposed to be handed last week but was postponed. Pletnev was shown leaving Pattaya court house accompanied by middle-age Russian women and obviously not in good spirits. The comments left no doubts that the authors of the program convinced that Pletnev is indeed a pedophile. The reference was given to two court cases in Russia (one middle eighties and another one of 2004). They also had shown a Russian man who claimed he was molested by Pletnev in the end of eighties in Moscow. The former director of Russian National orchestra (whom Pletnev fired at one point) also claimed that Pletnev is a pedophile. In any case, we will probably have the court decision pretty soon. Quote
KhorTose Posted December 4, 2010 Posted December 4, 2010 Allow me to speak for Fountainhall here and for myself by announcing to one and all that "We told you so." All charges have been dropped against Russian conductor/Musician Pletnev http://www.guardian....igation-dropped Quote
Guest Posted December 4, 2010 Posted December 4, 2010 Thank you for posting that article link. It does not surprise me in the least. Innocent until proven guilty should be the way things work throughout the world. I am glad he fought things and held to his guns. Quote
Guest voldemar Posted December 8, 2010 Posted December 8, 2010 The Russian embassy in Thailand has not yet received any official information from the Thai authorities that the child molestation charges against acclaimed Russian musician Mikhail Pletnev have been dropped, a spokesman said. The Guardian paper reported on Friday that the court in the city of Pattaya had brought the case to a close. Pletnev, a Russian National Orchestra (RNO) conductor, faced up to 20 years behind bars for allegedly raping a 14-year-old boy in July. He consistently denied all charges. Investigators told RIA Novosti that no evidence had been found proving Pletnev's guilt. Official confirmation that the case has been dropped will not be given before Tuesday as the Thai courts are closed due to public holidays. The Russian musician, who established the RNO in 1990, owns a small property in the resort town of Pattaya and spends several weeks there each year. BANGKOK, December 4 (RIA Novosti) RIA Novosti Quote
