Missing the "old days"

[PattayaMale]

A few of us were talking the other day that for some reason, the go-go bars just don't seem to be as fun as in the past. We all had a story about "remember when"... This had been on my mind and last night I decided to do something a bit different, not unlike what I use to do when visiting gogo bars in the past.

 

This is what I had noticed. Many bars (gogo) have a raised platform for the boys to stand (dance, model) on. The customers are seated around this "stage" on different levels back away from the stage. If or when you see a guy you might like to take off, you call him over and as soon as he sits down next to you a waiter asks the guy what he wants to drink.

 

Some times, even if you first have asked the mamasan if the guy speaks a little English or other details, after a couple of minutes you find that "you made a mistake" but may feel obligated to give a 50 or 100 baht tip. Total price you paid is about 200-300 baht and have talked to only 1 guy

 

But I really just want to say Hi and have the briefest of conversations. Like "where are you from" In the past this seemed to be very easy to do. Many bars were a small shop house and the guys were close enough, you would just yell out to them and then maybe give a 20 baht tip which they seemed to appreciate. This short, brief conversation could lead later to more banter and fun where you would ask the guy over for that drink or off. It was sort of an ice breaker and everyone seemed to have fun doing it.

 

Last night while at a gogo bar I noticed that almost all the customers were doing one of 2 things. If they came in with another farang friend they were really ignoring what was on stage or they were sitting very stoic, stoned faced nursing a drink, more like they were watching a movie than interacting with the "live" actors.

 

I believe all of this is because there is a rule or formula that has been put in place by farang owners to maximize profits. In the early days, it seemed that it was more "loose", not as mechanical as now.

 

So what I did was sit close to where the guys get close to the audience on a raised single person box. They rotate to these single person stages and I just started talking to the guy who usually just stands there staring into a mirror and simply gave a him a 20 baht tip. No 150 baht drink plus another 50 or 100 baht tip. I probably talked to 20 boys, so it cost me 400 baht to joke around with some guys. They were laughing I was laughing and many guys that are now getting nothing since the crowds are so sparse got something.

 

Some bars still have the "fun" feel. Happy Boys is one. The boys are really standing in the audience and easy to talk to. When I am there though, I don't understand why more customers don't tip a bit. I see guys all the time talking and touching and I guess they feel that the 100 baht the owner gets for a diet coke is enough.

 

Some host bars are easier to talk with the guys. But the staff is sometimes small in numbers and have been there for several years. Most are looking for the "off" of course and realize after you have visited a couple times that you probably are not "offing" them so they just sit in front of the bar smoking and talking to each other. There are exceptions like Festival Bar, and ? Mark, in Jomtien.

 

I would be really interested to learn what others think.

[Guest RichLB]

I totally agree with you. I remember Charlie Bar, the old Star Boys, and a couple other gogo bars where the "dancers" were on the same level as the customers and everyone enjoyed joking and playing around. It was fun. Nowadays, I feel like I'm entering a butcher shop - the meat is on display and I have to pick a choice cut without knowing much about him. I don't know about other guys, but to me the personality of a guy is as important - or more important - than his looks or endowment. Without some sense of what a guy is like, I just don't feel like investing a couple hundred baht to find out if I like him or not.

[Gaybutton]

I agree too. The only go-go bar I can think of where the boys are on the same level as the customers is Euro Boys.

 

The key word is "fun." I like the way Pattayamale puts it - that it's more like watching a movie. Somehow, when the boys are on a stage there is a loss of interpersonal contact and relationship. Now that it has been mentioned, I do feel more as if I am watching a performance - that is when the boys actually perform. In most bars it's still boys chatting amongst themselves, staring at themselves in the mirrors, doing only the "one-knee shuffle," making little or no eye contact with the customers, and often looking bored out of their minds.

 

Pattayamale also points out that some bars have the fun feel. Some. Why not all? We've discussed this on the board so many times over the years that I've lost track of how many times it must be by now. The bars are crying for business. And yet the only go-go bar I've seen that is making a genuine effort recently to do something about it is Krazy Dragon. Mark, at least, has sense enough to be trying to give his customers what they want. When we 'spoke' on this very board, Mark got the message and listened.

 

Too many of the other go-go bars have made no changes at all, and they can't figure out why their customer numbers, and amounts spent by the few customers they do get, are continuing to be less and less. If the bars would start making the kinds of changes we keep posting about, I, for one, would be in the bars a hell of a lot more often than I go anymore. And I'll betcha I'm not alone in that. When I go to the bars, I'm hoping to have an enjoyable time. I'm not going to the bars to sit there looking at a meat parade of boys who seem to want to be just about anywhere other than where they are.

 

Sometimes I feel as if "go-go" is the wrong term anymore. It is all too often more like "stop-stop."

 

Once again, bar owners, do something to make your bar a fun place to be - a place customers want to go.

[MrBill]

Last night while at a gogo bar I noticed that almost all the customers were doing one of 2 tings. If they came in with another farang friend they were really ignoring what was on stage or they were sitting very stoic, stoned faced nursing a drink, more like they were watching a movie than interacting with the "live" actors.

 

I believe all of this is because there is a rule or formula that has been put in place by farang owners to maximize profits. In the early days, it seemed that it was more "loose", not as mechanic as now.

I've only been to LOS 6 times but I totally agree with what you say. The first time I visited was in 1984. Prior to that trip, the only place I had visited outside of the USA was Canada which is only a 20 minute drive south for me. The one thing I recall was the diversity of the bars and shows. Some turned out not to be my thing, but it was worth the visit to see what was going on. I recall one bar, Baseball Club I think,where a boy handed a customer a small piece of string and then proceeded to prance around the circumference of the bar 3 times while the rest of the string poured out his ass. Definitely not my thing and I don't advocate shows that would degrade the boys, but variety of any sort does bring in customers.

 

I was perobably one of those farangs with the stoic expression you referenced but after visiting 5 bars in one evening and witnessing the same two-step shuffle, candle show, soap show, loud music and glaring lights in your face it's easy to become bored with or without a friend or companion.

 

Happy Boys reminds me more of the bars in Canada and those you used to find in Amsterdam where there is a VIP area where you can get up-close-and-personal if you're willing to shell out a small tip. Crazy Dragon is another bar I found fun except for a few boys who never seemed to smile or engage in eye contact when they came around to various tables.

 

I also think that central stages hinder interaction. Again, the bars I enjoyed in Canada and Amsterdam all had stages on an outside wall and boys wandered around mingling when not on stage dancing. As long as they're not too pushy, it does increase the likelihood of interaction.

 

So what I did was sit close to where the guys get close to the audience on a raised single person box. They rotate to these single person stages and I just started talking to the guy who usually just stands there staring into a mirror and simply gave a him a 20 baht tip. I probably talked to 20 boys, so it cost me 400 baht to joke around with some guys.

A small point here, but collecting 20 bhat notes for tips can be a bit more of a challenge for the visitor. ATMs dispense 100 bhat notes, banks would not give me change as I did not have an account with them and my hotel could only afford to exchange for 100 bhat worth of 20s at a time. I asked to make change in a couple of bars but without someone with good English skills I was unable to get my point across (or they just didn't care to do it).

 

I visited a bar in Berlin a few years ago that I think had the right idea. There was a small entrance fee that gave you 10 tickets worth 1 Euro each, and you could buy as many more as you wanted throughout the night. When you encountered a boy you liked you could tip him one or more tickets. When the guys had a certain amount of tickets they went to the bartender and exchanged the tickets for the equivalent in cash. I noticed that the longer a customerr stayed and the more he drank the more additional tickets he bought. Seemed like a lot of incentive there for the boys.

 

I know other topic areas talked about bar owners not willing/caring to try something different, but it seems that the old addage, "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got," is VERY applicable in this case.

[Guest]

Euro Boys definitely has a good layout.

 

The Krazy Dragon layout doesn't work for me. I recall getting surrounded by some unattractive guys almost dipping their bollocks in my beer. It's necessary to move them on before I can see what talent is in the rest of the bar. At least with a stage, you can see what's going on.

 

Another bad layout was the bar just up the street from Tangmo in Phuket (can't remember the name). The customers are quite a distance from the stage & sit in the dark, so anyone dancing on the stage cannot make eye contact with the customer.

 

After experiencing these, I figure places like Classic Boys, Funny Boys etc with a defined stage close to the customers do have a good layout.

 

The ideal bar should either have a mirror behind the stake or some kind of layout where you get to see the rear of the dancers at some point during their rotation (Euro Boys again).

 

Are you after some kind of cross between a gogo bar and a host bar? Two seater sofas, guys in Speedos rotating around until you pay one to join you?

 

As for the 20 baht notes, don't you need to visit 7-11s for water, juice etc during the day? Just save the small notes.

[kokopelli]

For me it is always a tip, no matter what. Some bars make it easy as in Sunee Plaza. They show the merchandise and I give a 20 Baht tip. Not sit with you, no drink, no conversation. Oh, ok, I give many tips ! Other bars as in Boyztown is not so easy. They hang on stage and do not expose their wares. I just pick out the one I like best and give him a 100 Baht tip about the time I am leaving. Of course if they sit with me the tip goes from 100 Baht and up.

[Smiles]

"... Many bars (gogo) have a raised platform for the boys to stand (dance, model) on ... "

 

" ... I remember Charlie Bar, the old Star Boys, and a couple other gogo bars where the "dancers" were on the same level as the customers and everyone enjoyed joking and playing around ... "

Ironically, in the 'normal' Thai social/cultural milieu, standing tall over, or being at a higher level than the person you are interacting with is, in general, considered bad form or even rude.

Thais will often make a good attempt in some way to reduce their height over you if they find themselves put in such a physical position. It's one of the reasons why Thais squat a lot together when engaging in general conversation . . . they are physically lowering their presence in the group: not out of deference, but out of politeness.

 

What many gogo bars have done with the raised stage concept is to (unwittingly?) place a young Thai in a social context that is very foreign to them: i.e. to be (uncomfortably) forced into a circumstance where they are raised above those considered customers. I would think any Thai young man would be feeling very uncomfortable to be forced into such a position. He'd not be particularly happy.

 

And it may also explain why gogo bars where the dancers are at least on the same level as the customers feel more like natural fun time ... they're more relaxed and easy going when their social interactions are happening in a more physical setting more in tune with the 'Thai way'.

[Guest gorcum]

I agree with most comments made here, I like the boys close up and interacting with the customer. I never thought about the high difference, But I think a stage or table just 1 foot above ground level would be nice, that way the boys do not feel to high and they still stand out. I also like the boys spread out through the bar.

what do most customers like for uniforms? briefs like in Funny boys, Euros Bar or boxer shorts, like the once have in Krazy Dragon or Happy Bar

[Gaybutton]

What many gogo bars have done with the raised stage concept is to (unwittingly?) place a young Thai in a social context that is very foreign to them: i.e. to be (uncomfortably) forced into a circumstance where they are raised above those considered customers.

I don't agree with that idea at all. How, then, do you explain the fact that the Thais themselves build stages for performers for their own shows and performances, even in the most rural areas? Based on what you are saying, I would think they would be more likely to build structures resembling the Colosseum in Rome or ancient Greek theaters.

 

Of course, if your idea is correct, then the solution in the bars is simple. Just switch things around. Put the customer seating on the stage and have the go-go boys dance on the floor . . .

[Guest joseph44]

Haha yeah, dancing a level too high might become a problem, but doing it naked isn't mentioned!!

Come on.

The lively bars are almost all gone; the bars where the (too) youngsters were dancing and hopping around under influence of booze or drugs.

 

At the moment (well, at least 3 monthd ago) most bars are occupied by bored Customer Care Officers, waiting for the off that won't come.

[Guest luvthai]

I miss the older bars also. The Moonlight was great fun at times and thats where I met my tiger with the silkiest skin ever.

The Cock-Pit where I enjoyed the shows and also met a bf that I knew for 8 years.

Also the bars that were in Soi Day Night area.

The Beach when vendors were allowed to try and make a living. The ice cream boys and the donut boys always a treat to watch. I liked the vendors and didn't find them to be a problem

[Guest RichLB]

I'm with both Smiles and luvThai.

 

If you think about it, Smiles might very well have hit on part of the problem. Being elevated above customers will make the guys uncomfortable. They are not accustomed to assuming the higher status position and most probably don't know what to do. It's a subtle thing, but we Westerners have similar acculturated traits. To test that, try standing just six inches closer to a friend when talking to him and see how uncomfortable you both are. It's likely the Thai guys feel the same way when their heads are above the customers.

 

And I agree with luvThai, as well. Why are the city fathers trying to convert Thai beaches to a version of the over-regulated ones found in the West. Like LuvThai, I like the vendors. They make for fun diversions while lounging on the beach chairs. And the new (well, not so new, but only a few years old) regulation that the chairs have to be in a line. Sure makes it tough to talk to each other if you go to the beach with a few friends. I remember when you could arrange the beach chairs any way you wanted. What's the point of having to line them up? And, speaking of chairs, is there a reason all the places use the same uncomfortable chaises? Is that another regulation that doesn't make sense?

[Gaybutton]

If you think about it, Smiles might very well have hit on part of the problem. Being elevated above customers will make the guys uncomfortable.

I have thought about it, and it makes zero sense to me. Where is this idea coming from that being on an elevated stage makes the boys uncomfortable? Since when? Most of the bars have always been like that, even when they used to be fun. Now all of a sudden being elevated on a stage is a problem for the boys? They're perfectly willing to be there, close to naked, many "whipping it out" and masturbating in front of onlookers, and not only willing, but wanting to go with total strangers for sex, but being on an elevated stage is what makes them uncomfortable. Right.

 

Whatever the reason is, that ain't it. I doubt it is even a remote factor.

[Guest RichLB]

GB, I think you misunderstand the power of non-verbal communication. The acts you identify are easily relegated to "working" requirements. But, the elevation difference might explain why "social" exchanges are difficult for the guys. We all know the list of cultural no-nos here in Thailand (no touching of the head, not presenting the soles of the feet to another, no waing children, the many nuances of the Thai smile, avoiding personal questions when first meeting, etc.) and I suspect we don't fully appreciate the way differences in elevation affects Thais. Smiles presents something worth thinking about.

[Gaybutton]

Smiles presents something worth thinking about.

Sure, if you want to be ridiculous. Go ahead then, based on that idea, and explain why Thais build stages for their own performers everywhere you look, including places where the presence of farang would be extremely rare. Explain why, not very many years ago, these bars were fun places to be and the go-go boys were far more enthusiastic than they seem to be now, but the stages and the head levels were precisely the same then as they are today. Head levels had nothing to do with it then, and head levels don't even begin to explain the atmosphere of these bars today. Do you truly believe that if the bars were redone so that the head levels were changed, now the boys would become much more animated?

[PattayaMale]

Sure, if you want to be ridiculous. Go ahead then, based on that idea, and explain why Thais build stages for their own performers everywhere you look, including places where the presence of farang would be extremely rare. Explain why, not very many years ago, these bars were fun places to be and the go-go boys were far more enthusiastic than they seem to be now, but the stages and the head levels were precisely the same then as they are today. Head levels had nothing to do with it then, and head levels don't even begin to explain the atmosphere of these bars today. Do you truly believe that if the bars were redone so that the head levels were changed, now the boys would become much more animated?

 

GB makes a good point. Also, if it applied to the host bars, in the long long past, I remember the host bringing a drink and getting down on his knees to serve it. So then I think it was still a custom to try to lower his head below mine. But I believe these days are far gone. Maybe this still holds true in some of the villages, I don't know.

[Guest RichLB]

Hey, we're comparing apples to oranges here. Head level sure doesn't explain why the bars have grown more and more boring. Part of it, of course, is that many of us have lived here long enough that the novelty has worn off. And GB is right about stages being used everywhere and not new to Pattaya. But, when there are stages they serve to separate audience from performers. That's their purpose. Not sure if that's a good idea for a gogo bar. What I have been talking about is the impact of these stages on being able to exchange quips with the guys before or instead of inviting them to join me for a drink.

[Guest fountainhall]

Head levels had nothing to do with it then . . .

This is absolutely correct. I remember in Bangkok the old Apollo bar in (I think) Silom Soi 4 which had a raised runway for the boys. And who can forget the original Twilight where the boys first danced au naturel on a raised stage behind the bar, then came through the audience to dance on small platforms around the pilllars? Now that was fun!

[Gaybutton]

I remember in Bangkok the old Apollo bar

Thank you! For about three years I've been trying to remember the name of that bar. Yes, That's it! And your description is exactly the way I remember it.

 

Hey, we're comparing apples to oranges here.

 

when there are stages they serve to separate audience from performers. That's their purpose. Not sure if that's a good idea for a gogo bar.

I've always wondered about that clich

[Bob]

I have thought about it, and it makes zero sense to me.

 

While I don't know the answer.....we're all guessing here and, too, we're all handicapped by our western upbringings to understand the Thai psyche.....at least Smile's suggestion makes some sense to me. I still notice a lot of body language in that direction (keeping yourself lower to superiors) and, hell, I still do it myself (sometimes subconciously) when approaching or being around monks.

 

Stage heights may also relate to the fact that Thais, over time, are attempting to emulate what the west does - plus the very practical reason that you can see better from the back if the stage is higher. And, lest we forget, a lot of these stages are built by falang who have no or little sensitivity to the nuances of Thai culture. I've noticed that the new kids in the bars up north (those new kids being from Laos, Burma, or local Shan villages) tend to bow a lot when directly conversing and making eye contact with a particular customer. When I see it, I don't see it so much as the kid being "uncomfortable" but slipping back into the cultural practices of the more rural Thais. That's the way they were raised and it's normal to many of them.

[kokopelli]

Stupid me. I always thought the stage was higher than the audience to give a better view. Isn't that the way with all stages? For me it is easier to see if the boys are higher up so I don't have to look through my bifocals.

[Guest]

The stage issue is a red herring.

 

Working as a prostitute requires many cultural compromises which are more significant than standing on a stage. For example, wearing underwear, possibly getting the tackle out in public & going home with a mature farang.

 

Some bars have high tables, where the customer almost has to crick his neck to look at the dancer. Some have a stage level with the customers. I don't see it as a factor.

The relative height of the seating and the stage is often the same in successful bars and those that go out of business.

 

Cute dancers, skimpy outfits, friendly demeanour, non-pushy mamasans and reasonable prices are more important.

 

Then, considering what's on offer over the entire planet, does anything even compete with the gogo bars of Pattaya and Bangkok?

[Guest fountainhall]

Thank you! For about three years I've been trying to remember the name of that bar. Yes, That's it! And your description is exactly the way I remember it.

You're welcome. That was a really fun place.

 

Working as a prostitute requires many cultural compromises

Just to clarify an issue here. In Thailand the bars are places of entertainment, not brothels, and the boys are entertainers, not prostitutes. That's one reason for there being no fee for a boy you take off, because that makes it prostitution. A tip which you decide or mutually agree once outside the bar is a different matter. Thai logic!

[Gaybutton]

That's one reason for there being no fee for a boy you take off, because that makes it prostitution. A tip which you decide or mutually agree once outside the bar is a different matter. Thai logic!

I don't think that's so illogical. When you take a boy off, it's not necessarily for sexual purposes. I'm sure many take boys off only to take them to an opera, followed by viewing their etchings, ending with a glass of warm milk and then giving him a cookie and sending him home.

 

Don't you agree . . . ?

[Guest fountainhall]

Don't you agree . . . ?

100%. And the fact that you might have been chatting to the boy about his sexual specialities and your sexual desires, is totally immaterial. After all, that's just talk, is it not?