US Embassy Answer - Following a Thai Will

[Bob]

Rather than insert it in the other post which first dealt with money issues, I thought I would start a new topic. The question I put to the Embassy was basically whether they would honor a Thai will (both as to dispostion of remains and disposition of property) or would their defined "next-of-kin" have the right to make such choices. They answered by email in less than 24 hours. Here it is:

 

The U.S. Embassy will follow the wishes of a deceased American citizen according to the deceaseds legal will. If your will is considered a legal document in Thailand, and the will lists an executor, we would follow the will and take direction from the executor named in the legal will. Hypothetically, if the deceased does NOT/NOT have a legal will, then the Embassy would take direction from the legal Next of Kin. A named executor in a legal will trumps the Next of Kin, but sometimes this is the same person.

 

The U.S. Embassy can assist with cremation of remains and transfer of a deceaseds assets if the will executor or legal Next of Kin wishes us to assist; OR there is no legal will or a Next of Kin cannot be located.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

American Citizen Services

U.S. Embassy Bangkok

 

So if you have a valid Thai Will, that's what will control, not the "next-of-kin" routine (which seems to be reserved for somebody that doesn't have a Will or where nobody knows if he does or not).

[Gaybutton]

nobody knows if he does or not).

That's good enough for me, although it does conflict with what I was told. I go with the latest word.

 

But that brings to mind another question. How does the embassy know whether you have a will? Since they said they are going to look for your passport before anything else, I would place a note in my passport saying that I do have a will and where it is.

[Bob]

Since they said they are going to look for your passport before anything else, I would place a note in my passport saying that I do have a will and where it is.

 

Probably not a bad idea; however, presuming you've named a Thai executor you trust (and given that he likely is your bf), I would guess that he would know that you bought the farm and would be clearly making himself known (on the other hand, now that he's "free" and has a few bucks, maybe he's on the prowl for better pickings...hehehehe).

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Did I read somewhere that you should register your will with the embassy?

[Gaybutton]

I think I'll have a tattoo made on the sole of my foot, in both English and Thai - "I have a will."

[Guest fountainhall]

I made 4 original copies. One is in the safe deposit box in my bank. One with a close friend here (we keep a copy of each other's wills). One is with my lawyer overseas, and one where I keep my passport. I reckon that with these 4 locations, someone will find at least one after I have shuffled off this mortal coil!

[Guest TOQ]

Bob, thanks for the information. Greatly appreciated

 

 

john

[kokopelli]

OK, let me complicate things a bit. I have a Will in the USA and my Executor does have instructions on what to do in case of my death. Does the US embassy accept a US Will as valid for their purposes.

[Gaybutton]

Does the US embassy accept a US Will as valid for their purposes.

I don't know, but I'll make it even more complicated. The answer they gave Bob and what they say on their own web site still seems to me to conflict. What are we supposed to do, pick the answers we like best and go with those?

 

I think what I'll do is:

 

1. Make the will and hope for the best

2. Make sure my next of kin knows I have a will, has a copy of it, what my wishes are, and hope for the best.

3. Make sure to come up with some way of letting the embassy know I even have a will, where it is, who the executor is, who my next of kin is, how to contact my next of kin, and hope for the best.

4. If I even have anything left when my time comes, try to take it with me . . .

 

Death of a U.S. Citizen - U.S. Embassy Bangkok, Thailand

 

What we have not seen posted here yet is something from anyone who does know someone who died in Thailand, left a Thai will, and what actually did end up occurring. I think that's what we need in order to really be sure.

[mahjongguy]

What we have not seen posted here yet is something from anyone who does know someone who died in Thailand, left a Thai will, and what actually did end up occurring. I think that's what we need in order to really be sure.

I assume you're not volunteering.

 

I just had an email discussion with American Citizen Services about this. Not surprisingly, they avoided providing actual legal guidance, but they did make several useful points:

- if you have a U.S. will and a Thai will, make absolutely sure that they are in no way conflicting. I feel it's best that your U. S. will mentions the existence of a Thai will and its executor.

- where you keep your passport, keep a witnessed Letter of Instruction to the U.S. Embassy that mentions your Thai will and contact info for its executor. Also include specific wishes as to the disposition of your body. Identify your next of kin.

 

The bottom line is that if you have significant assets here and it's important to you that they go to a particular beneficiary, then get a proper Thai will (and update it when appropriate).

[Gaybutton]

I assume you're not volunteering.

Only to this extent - if something happens to me, hold a seance. If I'm not too busy offing boys in the great beyond, I'll drop by and let you know how it played out. And if I'm going where I think I'm going, the boys there will really be hot . . .

[Guest tdperhs]

I got it covered. I

[Gaybutton]

with his sparkling eyes and engaging personality, finding somebody else to take care of him should be a piece of cake.

Sounds good to me. When are you going . . . ?

[Bob]

OK, let me complicate things a bit. I have a Will in the USA and my Executor does have instructions on what to do in case of my death. Does the US embassy accept a US Will as valid for their purposes.

 

My belief is definitely "yes"; however, the problem you have with that (presuming you croak in Thailand and/or have Thai assets worth bothering about) is as follows:

(1) How does anyone in Thailand know about the Will? You might be relatively/ultimately safe if somehow the embassy connects up with that person (i.e., if your "next-of-kin" is the same person or knows about the US Will). If not, the "next-of-kin" provisions will apply. If you want a Thai citizen to control disposition of your remains should you die in Thailand, then you probably ought to do a Thai Will and make sure that topic is covered in the Will.

(2) I've been told before (and this was confirmed by my Thai lawyer) that it's a difficult process to get your Thai assets (including a Thai bank account) repatriated to the US. Apparently, it involves some fairly expensive proceedings in a Thai court where the few attorneys that do it charge a fair amount, the US Embassy has to be involved with certifying documents, and it takes too much time. On the other hand, at least according to my Thai lawyer, the proceedings to "probate" your Thai assets to a Thai citizen are much less expensive and time consuming.

(3) I've been told that Thailand won't recognize a foreign Will unless it's executed according to the requirements of Thai law. I'm not sure if I believe that (typically, one jurisdiction will honor a Will made in another jurisdiction if the purported Will is executed properly under the rules of either jurisdiction).

 

If you don't have assets of any significant value in Thailand, don't worry about it (it'll cost more to probate the stuff than it's worth in the first place); however, if you have significant assets there (examples there might be where you have a condo or where you're using the 800K in a Thai bank account to support your one-year visa), it's probably wise to make a Thai Will.

 

GB suggested you leave a note in your passport (the document the embassy will demand to see first) indicating that you have a Thai Will and/or contact information for your Thai executor. Probably a wise idea and will likely stop the "next-of-kin" proceedings from grinding ahead.

 

On a somewhat related theme, US expats living in Thailand or there for extended periods of time can register online with the US embassy - and you can provide contact information that way. It's easy to do and, besides getting emails for any embassy warnings, they'll have on file who your contact person would be, your address and telephone number in Thailand (if you have one), etc.

[Guest fountainhall]

I've been told that Thailand won't recognize a foreign Will unless it's executed according to the requirements of Thai law

That's exactly what my friend and I have been told by 3 Thai lawyers.

 

typically, one jurisdiction will honor a Will made in another jurisdiction if the purported Will is executed properly under the rules of either jurisdiction

Even if you have a 'master' will in an overseas jurisdiction, you still need a Thai will made out in the Thai language to cover the assets you have here.

[Guest tdperhs]

Sounds good to me. When are you going . . . ?

 

Actually, you are the prime candidate to end up with him. But remember, he truly is a son of a bitch.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

Did I read somewhere that you should register your will with the embassy?

 

An embassy official told me that if I provided to the embassy a notorized copy of a will detailing my wishes upon my death, that it would be followed upon my death. They would maintain a copy at the embassy.

 

Another question that has come to mind is... What happens to Thailand assets if the expat dies in the US??

[Gaybutton]

Actually, you are the prime candidate to end up with him. But remember, he truly is a son of a bitch.

That's for sure. Whenever he visits me, he always follows me into the bedroom when I've got a boy over here. He keeps a close eye on me because he wants to learn to beg . . .

[Bob]

Another question that has come to mind is... What happens to Thailand assets if the expat dies in the US??

 

It doesn't matter where you die (i.e., your Thai assets will ultimately go to your beneficiary or heir-at-law provided somebody probates the stuff in Thai court). Of course, if nobody in the US knows you have assets in Thailand, they'll probably not go anywhere (and I suspect that ultimately the bank or Thai government will get your Thai bank account balance).

[Gaybutton]

I suspect that ultimately the bank or Thai government will get your Thai bank account balance.

I think I can answer that one, based on experience. Both Lvdkeyes and I had a mutual friend, an attorney from Florida who died far too young. He died in the USA, not Thailand, about 4 years ago.

 

Meanwhile, he had planned to buy a View Talay condo and had set up an account with Bangkok Bank. He wanted statements sent to him each month, but since he had no permanent address in Thailand he asked to use my address for mailing purposes. He kept 5000 baht in that account.

 

The statements arrive at my place each month. I would always scan them and send them to him via Email attachment. After his death, his family never did anything about closing out the account. It wasn't worth a trip to Thailand to deal with 5000 baht. His sister found his ATM card for that account and wanted to send the card to me, have me withdraw the money, and send it to her, which I was willing to do, but she couldn't find the PIN number anywhere, so that never took place. If there were other ways to get the money out of the account, she never pursued them.

 

The statements never stopped coming. For a very long time there were no changes. Only a few months ago they started charging a monthly service charge and they take it out of the account. It's a very nominal amount, but of course there is less and less money in the account every month now. I would imagine the service charge will eventually clean out the account.

 

I do know that Bangkok Bank's policy is if an existing account has a zero balance, if it remains dormant for a year, they will close out the account.

[Guest Hedda]

Generally speaking, lawyers who specialize in estate matters will tell you that it's a bad idea to start making originals and copies of your will, whether it's for the US Embassy, the bank, your executor, your boyfriend's mother, your best friend, your lawyer, your next-of-kin, and one for your Loy Kathrong float.

 

Why ? Because, if and when you need to make changes as you grow older, you have to go around collecting those old copies you gave away - or you could end up with different versions of your last Will circulating in different places. And if anyone raises any question about which Will came last and/or the validity of witness signatures on different copies, you could end up with a nightmare called a will contest - in a Thai court !

 

If you have substantial property in Thailand, make sure you have a will that conforms to Thai legal standards with one signed original in your safe or safety deposit box and one unsigned copy with your executor or lawyer. If you're not sure about anything, ask a Thai lawyer.

[Gaybutton]

you could end up with a nightmare called a will contest - in a Thai court !

I never thought of that. What you said makes sense.

[Guest fountainhall]

if and when you need to make changes as you grow older, you have to go around collecting those old copies you gave away - or you could end up with different versions of your last Will circulating in different places

Excellent point. This is why in my Thai will there is a declaration about the number of original copies and where they can be located.

[Guest RichLB]

I have an additional question. If I have previously made a will in the United States, but since changed my mind about how I wish my assets in the US distriuted and now wish to leave them to my Thai bf, will my Thai will supercede my US will if dated later? And does anybody have any suggestions on how to handle the distribution of US assets to a Thai beneficiary?

[Guest fountainhall]

If I have previously made a will in the United States, but since changed my mind about how I wish my assets in the US distriuted and now wish to leave them to my Thai bf, will my Thai will supercede my US will if dated later?

A will is not cast in stone. You can always change it. From the discussion I had with the lawyer, it will be risky relying on just one will in one legal jurisdiction, even if it is dated later than one in another jurisdiction. You are creating a situation where your executor - and hence your beneficiary - will have to engage and pay for lawyers, with the consequent delay in the beneficiary getting the balance of your US assets. Plus, your next of kin may go to court to claim that your Thai will has no validity in the US. Lawyers thrive on ambiguity and doubt. Far better to have a will in each country. Your US will can then name your Thai bf as the beneficiary.