Hope someone can to help me.

[Guest Raykrab]

Hello, I'm a Thai guy 36 years old.

I need someone can to help me. now I have a business about bar in Chiangmai 6 years ago and I still rent a buiding for my business.I need to buy this buiding but I can't to do it with a bank. So,I need to have someone that can to help me about buy the buiding. I will give-back about interest of it like with a bank for you.(or your offering) by use that buiding to be collateral. I must to use 4.5 millions baht and I will give back within 15 years.(private finance)

 

If have someone interesting with this or want to know mor information. please contact me by email chitipat_ch@hotmail.com

 

thank you for your kindnessly

[Guest Raykrab]

Hi All,

I know,many people thinking this posting look like scam's topic. I'm not scam's man or bad man that want to cheat someone.

 

I'm to be only a man that want to be the owner of business,to be someone can to be have 1'st home and to be some one can to build up a fortune by my self.

 

About this : I try to talk with the owner many time about selling until now he o.k. to sale it for me at 4.5 million baht. I go to the bank but I can't to do it with a bank. So about my classified, I need to have someone to buy this building for me and I will give money back within 10-15 years. By use a condition same with the bank (or your offerling) and I will give the title deed with him(to be collateral).I will sign contact of finance with him too.

 

I try to do it many ways for buy the building but it's not success. So,I try to use this way again.Because I don't know when the owner of building think to sell it with another.If to be that, my business may be finish at that time.

 

If you or someone understand and kindness me of helping,please help me.I will give money back like I'm promise. And I will thinking with you are my family. For thai people,"FAMILY" must to be come first and important. I will take care you or him and will be a best guy of you or hime forever.

 

This is my unmet need.

 

thanks a lot and best regards.........

 

[Gaybutton]

I don't think anyone is accusing you of attempting a scam, but the fact is that you were on this board posting messages looking for money a year ago.

 

http://www.gaythailand.com/forums/Gay-Thailand-Forums-f1/Gay-Thailand-f3/Gay-Bar-sale-Thailand-t4555.html&p=28551#entry28551

[Bob]

Regardless, even semi-intelligent people don't make private loans to individuals they don't know and trust. And I'd guess that nobody here knows you, Ray.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

A UK friend here told me he never loans money to anyone, even a friend. His reasoning is that if he doesn't get the money back he has lost the money and a friend.

[Guest fountainhall]

His reasoning is that if he doesn't get the money back he has lost the money and a friend.

I lost several friends this way - at least I thought they were friends. I had known all of them for many months (even years in a couple of cases) and the quite small amounts they requested were for seemingly genuine reasons. One I had known for 2 years even brought his sister when requesting the deposit for a bigger room he was moving to. For some months he kept in touch, but then totally disappeared - like the rest. Changed phone numbers and emails so no way of making contact. Perhaps I am just an easy 'touch', but then I have also lent small sums to friends in Hong Kong, China and Malaysia and was always paid back. Is this a Thai 'thing', I wonder?

 

Re Raykrab's request for help, it seems this bar actually exists and he wants cash to purchase the premises rather than rent. It would certainly help to know the bar's name. And given the downturn in gay businesses in general in Thailand, which I understand has hit Chiang Mai pretty hard, a prospective buyer would want to see a very realistic business plan before investing.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Question - If he has had the bar for 6 years, apparently doing well enough to want to buy the building instead of renting, why can't he get the money from the bank?

[KhorTose]

I don't think anyone is accusing you of attempting a scam, but the fact is that you were on this board posting messages looking for money a year ago.

 

http://www.gaythaila...8551#entry28551

 

I might think he is attempting a scam, but I would never accuse him of that.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

"Something's rotten in the state of Denmark"

[Guest]

Making private loans is a risky business.

[Guest gay_grampa]

...I need to buy this buiding but I can't to do it with a bank.

 

If a Thai bank (with billions of Baht in anonymous shareholder's assets) won't lend to a Thai businessman who has a financial record that they know ...

 

Why should an individual, who has never met you, be so reckless with his own hard earned money?

 

Good luck ... they say 'there's one born every minute' ... Are you cute?

[Guest lvdkeyes]

If he is drop dead gorgeous would you consider lending him the money?

[Guest Raykrab]

thank you for all comment, ... I'm only try to do it in many way.It may be unposible for this way, But I want evryone understand me and don't think I'm to be scams man,only that!.

 

 

Thank you so much for everybody and every comment.

[Guest alaan]

z909 wrote "making private loans is a risky business"

 

Sorry z909, it's not. It seems you would know very little about business with this comment. All my businesses were built up with 'private loans'. Had I not received my first private loan (from a family member) and then made subsequent private loans (to individuals with sound business ideas) rather than me and/or borrowers having to jump through all the banks hoops and rely on them, I would not have been able to retire as early as I have.

 

It is all about assessing the business potential as well as the individual you are lending to, with private loans the lenders are more strict about how money is to be used. Taking a percentage of the business as part pay-back for a private loan is by far a more assured way of business success. The lender (me) can have a hands-on input and the borrower has good support from his lender rather than the chasing-for-the-debt attitude of the lending Banks.

 

I speak from experience, all business dealings have a "risk element" to some degree, but in my opinion "private lending" is by far the most sucessful way of achieving a win(borrower)-win(lender)end result.

 

Would I lend to this individual? If i were still in the "private lending" business, which I am now not, I would be able to say once I had seen the business and met the individual.But I certainly would not write it off without finding out more, that is incredibly short-sighted. Those experienced in business quickly know bullshit from knowledge z909.

 

And to reply to all those like gay-grampa who obviously have never delt with a modern bank for business purposes, banks NEVER really take ANY risk, they lend based on your collateral, property, guarantors etc.. Banks and to some extent the Inland Revenue almost NEVER lose out when a company goes belly-up. It is the unsecured creditors who "pay the bill".

 

Just because a bank won't lend, does NOT mean a business it turns down has no potentional to be highly successful. That outlook is foolish to say the least. As you say gay-grampa "there is one born every minute"....i.e. one that doesn't have a clue whatthey are blabbering on about.

 

I am not advocating blind lending, what i am saying is that it does no harm whatsoever to check something out first, before just writing it off without any basis, as most here have done.

[Gaybutton]

I am not advocating blind lending, what i am saying is that it does no harm whatsoever to check something out first, before just writing it off without any basis, as most here have done.

I don't disagree with the gist of what you are saying, but my first question would be whether it is legal in Thailand for a foreigner to buy an entire building in his own name or establish a corporation in his own name and buy it that way. Is it? I really don't know. I know that Thailand has gotten quite strict about foreigners establishing corporations for the purpose of buying property. I also know that applies to housing. But I have no idea whether that also applies to commercial property.

[Guest gay_grampa]

 

And to reply to all those like gay-grampa who obviously have never delt with a modern bank for business purposes, .....

 

You seem to know a lot more about me than I do

 

ps. It's DEALT

[Bob]

z909 wrote "making private loans is a risky business"

 

Sorry z909, it's not. It seems you would know very little about business with this comment.

 

For 34 years, I represented a whole lot of those "private lenders" attempting to recoup what turned out to be unwise loans and, based on my experience, the only issue I take with z909's statement is he should have added "very" to the "risky business" description.

I'd be rich if I got a dollar every time I heard "I should have known better...."

 

Some private lending works out fine but it's a much riskier business because usually the borrowers seeking that private lending simply can't qualify for institutional lending (and, even though I'm no fan of banks and professional lenders, they do tend to set requirements that have proven over time to increase their odds of being paid back). Another critical problem of private lending for business transactions is that the business "assets" are often worthless if the borrower goes under.

 

In the instant case, we falang with few exceptions are not legally allowed to own real estate. Even presuming you could successfully lien the real estate to secure a loan (while you're at it, it might be wise to talk to a Thai lawyer about what the rules are for doing that and to determine if it's legal in the first place), I personally wouldn't gamble with commercial real estate anywhere in Thailand. My eyes - reading too many stories about how bad business is right now in Thailand and also seeing too many empty shops and buildings - are trying to tell me something there.

[Guest]

Alaan, your business model sounds like more than just lending money to a business. As the deal means you get to own part of the business, there's a lot more upside potential. However, it's also crossing over the boundaries so that your loan effectively resembles a partial investment in the company.

 

A properly structured deal in Thailand may well achieve superior returns. However, it IS very risky until the investor understands his rights under Thai law and also understands the business model fully. Obviously the successful investor does all this, but even then the lack of diversification could be viewed as a risk.

 

I would rather invest in that other risky area known as global stock markets. This allows diversification across many economies and by adopting a value strategy, history says above average returns are achieved over the long term.

I plan to retire off the back of this strategy. This may or may not achieve lower returns than your methods, however I can sleep at night. It's going OK so far.

[Guest alaan]

I have no idea if a foreigner can buy a whole building in his own name or not either Gaybutton, but at this stage that doesn't really matter, because it would just be one of many things along with all the other relevant information-gathering which would be required in the first instance.

 

Even if it was a hurdle it still doesn't mean lending to this individual is a non-starter, there may be other ways, even more suitable ways to get agreement for a basis of lending.

 

My main point, which as you say you have the gist of, is not to IMMEDIATLY write off a potential opportunity through sheer ignorance,like some are here, whilst at the same time certainly putting off any potential suiter for this individuals business,via this forum.

 

So, Bob-of-34-years "representation", pray tell exactly what "unwise loans" have to do with private borrowing being any riskier than institutional borrowing, what a load of nonsense, "unwise loans" are simply UNWISE no matter if lent in private or not. They exist in just about every sphere of finance.

 

And if "business assets" are worthless in private borrowing they would be equally as worthless in institutional lending, so what is your point with regards that?

 

Its this half-assed stereo-typing and generalisations that unknowlegdeable members of the public believe when somebody like Bob gives us the benefit of his experience. A whole load of negative statements regarding just how "very risky" private borrowing is, and a small bland line thrown in as if irrelevant that "some private lending works out fine".

 

And what, so loans from financial institutions with their "set requirements to increase their odds of being paid back " dont go belly-up? Stuff and nonsense man.

 

Gay-grampa I dont need to know much about you, your post spoke for itself. so have you dealt with a modern bank for business purposes lately or not? And well done for managing to nit-pick a spelling error, you missed the rest.Cruicial to the arguement was it?

 

There is no more risk attached to whether a business is funded privately or from banking institutions, each case is individual and it is ALL simply down to the business which is requiring the borrowing and the ability of the lender (whoever that may be) to assess whether it is worth it or not.

 

Z909. The statement you made without any further explanation whatsoever, was that "making private loans is a risky business" my reply to you and Bob is that it is no more risky in private lending than anyother "type" of lending.

And in fact private lending is a cruicial way many excellent business ideas, written off by banks and financial institutions, can actually get up and running, and i can guarantee you would find that these types of enterprises have by far a more successful rate than institutionally funded equivalents.

 

Yes share capital in return for investment are indeed one of the most assured ways for success, but that was only one example, I have made loans based on having equity in the business and also have funded managers buy-outs linked to profit returns within a certain timescale, as well as other types whose details are much too complicated to explain here, my posts are way too long as it is.

 

I agree that a wide spread in the equity markets should give a better-than-cash-return over time, and that there is more hands-on required in private lending, but that is why private lending is so successful, precisely due to the support and close attention you give to a business when making the loan, there ARE strings but not in the same "one blueprint fits all" criteria that financial institutions enforce.

 

But again, that was not really my point, it was made in reply to the scepticism of the replies, and the way they were quick to write off the initial request for private funding. We can argue back and fore, but in my opinion and experience it is wrong to make a claim that private funding is in any way more risky compared to any other form of funding, especially if you have no actual experience in private lending to base that claim on.

[Bob]

A foreigner cannot own land in his own name in Thailand (with a few exceptions - you can own a condo in certain areas if less than 50% of the units are owned by foreigners and there is an exception that a foreigner might qualify for if you invest something like 50 million baht or above). Some foreigners have gotten around this requirement by buying land in the name of a registered corporation where the foreigner owns less than 50% of the stock (Thai nationals own the balance and then the foreigner holds contracts with those nationals to attempt to control the property); however, while the Thai government hasn't (to my knowledge) actually gone after these owners, I've read various statements from various Thai governmental officials that they believe this set-up is not legal and they reserve the right to go after same. Oh, and you can also own land if you marry a Thai national and the title is held in your name and the Thai national (with some requirements as to unload it if there's a divorce).

 

Presuming one is not willing to risk acquiring the building with the corporation trick noted above, I suppose that would leave the bar assets (coolers, tables, etc.) as one's security. In other words, absent the ability to secure the real estate (and presuming you're saavy about real estate prices in LOS - there's a whole lot for sale these days), it's a non-starter.

[Guest gay_grampa]

 

Gay-grampa I dont need to know much about you, your post spoke for itself. so have you dealt with a modern bank for business purposes lately or not? And well done for managing to nit-pick a spelling error, you missed the rest.Cruicial to the arguement was it?

 

 

Judging by the manner of your replies, you don't need to know much about anyone or anything here to be able to jump to ill-considered conclusions.

 

Yes, I have had business dealings within the past 5 working days with one international bank (HSBC) and 2 Thai banks. I do not know if these institutions qualify by your standards as 'modern banks' but the outcome has been satisfactory.

 

As for the spelling error, yes it is pertinent, in so far as you have shown:

a. Your ignorance and/or

b. You don

[Gaybutton]

I have no idea if a foreigner can buy a whole building in his own name or not either Gaybutton, but at this stage that doesn't really matter

I don't understand your logic on this point. How can it not matter? If I cannot own the building, then in my opinion there is nothing to pursue.

 

If this person intends to collateralize the loan with the building itself, but if it turns out that you cannot own the building, then if he defaults on the loan, how can you protect yourself and recover your money? I would think even if you can own the building, but he defaults on the loan, now you would have to go through a major hassle involving attorneys, the land office, the courts, and Lord-knows-what, not to mention having to try to sell the building yourself.

 

I could be wrong, of course, but if I'm holding the paper on a building I cannot own, then if he defaults on the loan, I'm holding worthless paper.

 

I'm not saying it's a bad investment. Maybe it's an excellent investment. But as far as I'm concerned, if I cannot own the building, then include me out no matter how good the investment might be.

[Guest fountainhall]

We can argue back and fore, but in my opinion and experience it is wrong to make a claim that private funding is in any way more risky compared to any other form of funding, especially if you have no actual experience in private lending to base that claim on.

As one who expressed initial doubts, I can see the justification for alaan's view. I wish I had paid far more attention to different types of investment when I was younger. Having got badly 'burned' by one investment advisor who put too much of my modest savings into a less orthodox vehicle than pure stocks and bonds, I have since been exceedingly sceptical - scared? - about alternative types of investment. On the other hand, the seeming risks of any involvement on the scale required for the Chiang Mai bar at the present time would certainly scare me away.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Since the vast majority of us don't understand Thai law regarding ownership of property and what would happen if the borrower defaults on the loan, I will quote a well respected financial advisor, Suze Orman. "It is far better to do nothing than to do something that you do not understand."

[Gaybutton]

Since the vast majority of us don't understand Thai law regarding ownership of property

Not only that, but Thai law and enforcement thereof tends to change and they're not above grandfathering in certain things. That's what caused the scare a few years ago when Thailand was saying they are going to go after farang who had bought condos under corporate names. Fortunately, that didn't happen, but there is nothing to say that it can't happen at some point in the future. It could happen years from now. It might never happen. But it could also happen tomorrow.

 

That's part of the problem. I agree with the Suze Orman quote. And I take it even a step further in that even if you do understand it, who's to say it won't all change before the end of the term of the loan?