Thailand falling behind

[PattayaMale]

Here is a good read from Newsweek:(saw on Thaivisa)

 

Destruction of Thai

[Gaybutton]

Among the points made in that article, one that had not occurred to me but makes plenty of sense, is that other Asian countries might start taking serious advantage of Thailand's situation to try to make themselves the new prime tourist destinations.

 

That can only make things even worse for Thailand's tourist industry. Despite "official" optimistic reports about tourism bouncing back and glowing predictions for the future, if you are in Thailand it doesn't take long to see for yourself what the true situation is, at least as it stands right now. In Pattaya, the 'boom town' aspect has dramatically tapered off. What I see is many of the construction projects being put on hold or simply abandoned. Where there has been new construction, many of the shophouses and apartments have been sitting vacant or only partially occupied ever since they were opened, and for many it has been months. Well known venues and restaurants have been closing, and a lot more have closed than opened. I see businesses that used to have customers every time I pass by now not having any customers at all when I pass by and the employees sitting there looking bored and forlorn. I don't know how long stores, restaurants, and businesses can survive when the only time they get customers is every once in awhile.

 

Of course, many of the boys are also complaining. Just a few days ago I was talking with one boy who told me it was unusual for him to go more than one or two days without being taken off. Now, he said, it has been 24 days since he was last taken off - and that was several days ago.

 

Even where I live, on "The Dark Side," a few favorite restaurants have closed, and "The Dark Side" is not heavily dependent on tourists at all. However, many people who live out here have jobs and businesses directly related to the tourist industry. Many who could previously afford luxuries are now struggling to survive. I see more 'For Sale' signs on homes and vehicles than I've ever noticed before.

 

I've heard talk before that Cambodia might be the next up-and-coming major Asian gay destination. I'm beginning to wonder if at some point we might be hearing less and less about Pattayland and start hearing about "PhnomPenhLand." If Cambodia plays its cards right and starts launching major tourism campaigns, Thailand's tourist industry could end up in a lot more trouble than it's already in.

 

When we start seeing Gay Cambodia message boards popping up out of nowhere, that's when we'll know gay Thailand is deep in the doo-doo.

[Guest]

The Thai tourist industry will be suffering from loss of business due to at least three factors:

1 Civil unrest in Thailand

2 Depreciation of some Western currencies

3 Global economic downturn

 

The depreciation of Western currencies will be partly linked to trade deficits. To get to the point, Thailand needs to attract Chinese tourists in the longer term, as wealth is being transferred from the west to China.

 

I'm not sure how well Pattaya does at attracting gay Chinese tourists. This may be a more difficult task, as wealthy middle class gay Chinese can probably get cute 20 year old Asians into bed back home without much difficulty. However, all the gogo bars should provide an attraction even for them.

 

I don't think it's anywhere near at the stage where you would choose the Phnom Penh night life ahead of that in Pattaya.

I do think Cambodia offers some more interesting tourist attractions, with enough night life to keep the gay tourist entertained. The guys you meet are likely to speak better English than their Thai counterparts too.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

It seems like most other Asians speak English better than the Thais.

[ChristianPFC]

Even in England, there are signs of decline of the tourism in Thailand. When I walk past a travel agency, I check if there are adverts for holidays in Thailand, which was rarely the case. At least, there were quotes for cheapest flights to Bangkok (and other towns all over the world), but now Bangkok isn't in the list any more. In the entire shopwindow, Thailand isn't even mentioned.

[Guest fountainhall]

Among the points made in that article, one that had not occurred to me but makes plenty of sense, is that other Asian countries might start taking serious advantage of Thailand's situation to try to make themselves the new prime tourist destinations.

Frankly, they don’t need to try very hard! I haven't yet read the article, but this is not really new. It has been going on for many years. For example, with the downturn following 1997 resulting in Hong Kong having its worst recession since World War II, the government and the Tourism Board went all out to add to its previous attractions of being -

 

1. the natural gateway to China

2. cuisine and restaurants

3. shopping

 

Disneyland, albeit a pale version of the others, was wooed and attracted, the floodgates opened for mass tourism from the mainland, and millions were spent to upgrade Ocean Park - now one of the most popular theme parks in the world. It worked. Hong Kong’s tourism industry has mushroomed.

 

Singapore has also spent vast amounts. It has a huge airline 'hub' business with a large number of flights stopping over on the Kiwi Route to/from Europe. The new Universal Studios Theme Park will not be fully open till the end of the year, but is already drawing in the crowds. Its other theme parks draw on nature's wonders and are especially attractive to kids and families. Shopping has always been one of its strengths, to which is now added gambling with 2 modern mega casinos - just one of which has 3,000 new hotel rooms. With 70% + majority of Singaporeans being Chinese and the country having many investments in China, it was one of the first to woo Chinese tourists who now flock there in their millions.

 

Thailand used to be the envy of all the region’s tourism authorities. Its amazing beach life mean that the average number of nights spent in the country by each visitor was well almost three times those spent in Singapore and Hong Kong. And it is those extra nights that all tourism authorities really covet. With visits to our cities more likely than in the past to coincide with some form of protest, it becomes far more likely that those tourists who continue to come will do so primarily for beaches far away from Bangkok and the main cities, with a resultant drop of several days in the average stay. That alone is desperate news for the tourism industry.

 

As z909 mentions, it is the Chinese tourists who should form the backbone of tourism in the future, especially many of the freer spending middle class gay tourists. Nothing can compare to the bar scene in Thailand, but Hong Kong and Singapore also have their own thriving gay nightlife - without the potential threat of being caught up in protests and violence. And surprisingly, individual Chinese do not need visas for Thailand, whereas they must wait months to get one for Hong Kong!

 

I feel sad for the Tourism Authority of Thailand and THAI. With the billions of extra Baht they are spending in trying to attract more visitors, what on earth can they do as long as the threat of mass protests and the potential for further violence continues? Overseas, the media all highlight the lack of stability in the country. Add to that the rise in the Baht’s value and one of the main tourism staples for visiting the cities - shopping - is no longer cheaper here than it is in Singapore and Hong Kong.

 

Thailand has always been resilient, and I suspect it will bounce back. My gut feel tells me it will be years, not months.

[macaroni21]

I'm not sure how well Pattaya does at attracting gay Chinese tourists. This may be a more difficult task, as wealthy middle class gay Chinese can probably get cute 20 year old Asians into bed back home without much difficulty. However, all the gogo bars should provide an attraction even for them.

 

From my occasional visits to China, I get the sense that while the callboy industry exists, it tends to be pricey and risky relative to other services. There are also a lot of closetted gay men who might not want to expose themselves to risk by buying sex in China, but would be all too eager to do so once outside their own country. Certainly there are no gogo bars in all of China, which is why they love the shows in the Soi Twilight bars when most of us have grown tired of them. In any case, among the first things people want to do when they reach middle class is to travel.

 

Gay Thailand can exploit these factors to its benefit. The problem is Thai (and farang) businessmen in Thailand are virtually clueless as to how to engage and sell to the Chinese market. If you think their command of English is laughable, their command of Chinese is non-existent!

 

As for farang owners, as mentioned before, in all likelihood most are not interested in a future where the market is not farang-oriented. If the farang is not the centre of the gay Thailand universe, then what's the use of it? Who cares then whether gay Thailand survives or dies? How many farang owners can see themselves serving Asians? The reversal of the unspoken race hierarchy would be intolerable.

 

So I may be barking up the wrong tree and everything I say about reorienting businesses to Asian markets may be irrelevant. Perhaps we should be clear: The discussion on this and similar online boards is not whether gay Thailand will survive, but where a farang-centred gay Thailand will survive.

[Guest fountainhall]

Gay Thailand can exploit these factors to its benefit. The problem is Thai (and farang) businessmen in Thailand are virtually clueless as to how to engage and sell to the Chinese market. If you think their command of English is laughable, their command of Chinese is non-existent!

I remember quite a few chats with bar boys saying they did not much like Japanese tourists because many did not understand the tipping business, because tipping is just not part of Japan culture. That is not true of China and so Chinese visiting the bars could, as macaroni21 points out, be a big bonanza. On gayromeo, there are 3,581 registered from China and only 1,319 from Japan. But there is a huge number of Chinese camfrog sites and, I am sure, other similar dating ones. The potential for inbound gay tourism to Thailand is almost unlimited. That is where the future is.

 

If I were a bar owner, I'd be starting to have menus, drinks lists and signage in simplified Chinese (because the written language in China is not identical to that in Hong Kong and Taiwan but whose visitors tend to speak better English). I'd also run a very short course for the boys in a few Chinese phrases. That would at least be a start. And with many gay Chinese preferring gwm to other Asians, it could also be a bonanza for us farang who live here

[macaroni21]

I remember quite a few chats with bar boys saying they did not much like Japanese tourists because many did not understand the tipping business, because tipping is just not part of Japan culture.

 

Oh, I didn't know this. This is interesting.

 

I would however add that tipping is not part of Singaporean culture either, but you can find hordes of Singaporeans in gogo bars and massage parlours. They do fine. I think it's got to do with someone in charge explaining clearly to the buyer. This is where my suggestion on Gay Ting Tong comes in: I said that if venue owners/managers can't speak Japanese/Chinese/Korean, they should at least provide an FAQ sheet in various Asian languages. Gently ask customers to read them so no misunderstanding will arise.

[Guest fountainhall]

I would however add that tipping is not part of Singaporean culture either, but you can find hordes of Singaporeans in gogo bars and massage parlours. They do fine. I think it's got to do with someone in charge explaining clearly to the buyer.

With respect, it is far more common now in Singapore than it used to be (and I am in Singapore as I write). I guess so many Singapore gays have been in Thailand that they have explained how things work to all their friends. To the Japanese, however, tipping is anathema! On my first visit to Tokyo almost 30 years ago, I wanted to give the bellboy a small tip. When he would not take it, I tried to press it into his hand. He virtually recoiled, looked down and walked backwards out of the room. I did not realise then that I had actually offended him by making the offer!

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

It seems like most other Asians speak English better than the Thais.

 

Actually, I think it's mainly only in the former British colonies in Asia that we speak English better than the Thais. Thanks to the efforts of the British colonialists (actually Queen Victoria didn't even want to add Malaya to the list of British possessions - Disraeli had to convince her otherwise), the Straits Settlements, especially, have a strong tradition of Asian English speakers, many of whom still send their children to Britain for further education.

[Gaybutton]

Thailand has always been resilient, and I suspect it will bounce back.

I think so too, but I can't help but bear in mind that luck also has a way of eventually running out.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Actually, I think it's mainly only in the former British colonies in Asia that we speak English better than the Thais.

That is why I said "most"

[Guest]

The population in the former French colony of Cambodia also speak better English than I normally find in Thailand.

 

As for the Chinese, well Bangkok has a large China town & it presumably it should not be difficult to find people who speak Mandarin to help market gogo bars to the Chinese?

 

China may have 3x as many Gay Romeo members as Japan, but China has 10x the population.

 

As for a demonstration of weakness of some foreign countries, well the pound bought 69.76 baht in November 2007 and it now buys 47.5 (Super Rich). Therefore, considering exchange rates alone, a Thai holiday is 47% more expensive in sterling terms.

That 1200 baht tip is costing £8 more than it did.

 

Of course this should not deter the visitor who can easily afford the holiday, but those who could only just afford it might be priced out of the market.

[macaroni21]

As for the Chinese, well Bangkok has a large China town & it presumably it should not be difficult to find people who speak Mandarin to help market gogo bars to the Chinese?

 

The ethnic Chinese population in Thailand is now into its third or fourth generation. Virtually everyone that I have met and asked do not speak any Chinese at all. The few that could say a couple of phrases said it in variant - I think they call it Tay-Cho - that is incomprehensible to Mandarin speakers (kind of like Minhua one finds in Taiwan) . I think the Chinese who migrated to Thailand came from a specific part of China carrying with them a local language, not Putonghua (Mandarin) that is now the lingua franca of China. I believe the Chinese minority in Thailand have never had a history of speaking Mandarin.

 

That said, all forms of Chinese, like Thai, are tonal, and it shouldn't be too difficult for Thais (not just Sino-Thais) to pick up Chinese, provided there is interest.

 

z909, do you have a historical comparison for the euro and US$ too?

[Guest xiandarkthorne]

It's only recently that the Chinese were allowed to learn Mandarin in Thailand, so I should be really surprised if there were a great number of Mandarin speakers in Bangkok, for example. Before that, many Chinese had to send their children to Malaysia (mostly to Penang) to learn Mandarin. The Chinese spoken in Thailand is mainly either Teochew or Hokkien. In the south in Hatyai, especially, there are more Mandarin speakers since so many Malaysian and Singaporean Chinese (many of whom speak Mandarin) have been going there to do their shopping for so many years, though the great majority of Chinese-Thai still speak the Teochew or Hokkien dialects more common to the northern states of Malaysia and Singapore.

[PattayaMale]

One of the reasons I enjoy Cambodia (there are many others) is that many guys speak very good English in Cambodia.

[Guest]

Shows how little I know about the Chinese population in Bangkok.

 

z909, do you have a historical comparison for the euro and US$ too?

The historical sterling v baht data is from my bank statement downloads, so there is no Euro or dollar data from that source.

 

Checking the website below, I get the following. Obviously there's some variation from my previous figures, due to a different data source & different dates picked for the exchange rates.

 

Now 1USD = 32.52 baht; Nov 2007 31.53 Cheaper !!

Now 1 euro = 39.17 ; Nov 2007 45.95 17% more expensive

Now 1

[Guest aot87]

As some one from the uk , I have cancelled my sept/oct holiday . this is because of the present exchange rate. its just too costly to visit , with beer at approx 120 bht for a small bottle in places such as the cafe royale (thats about

[Guest fountainhall]

As some one from the uk , I have cancelled my sept/oct holiday . this is because of the present exchange rate. its just too costly to visit , with beer at approx 120 bht for a small bottle in places such as the cafe royale (thats about £2.80 ).The trouble with most of the bars in pattays is that they dont lower the prices when times are bad, they just increase them due to fewer visitors,

The way bar owners react to a downturn in business by raising prices has been discussed on other threads, and it really is, in my view, both idiotic and self-defeating. Clearly it's a great pity for European-based travellers who now find Thailand a lot more expensive, but as z909 pointed out, Thailand is a lot cheaper now for those from the USA! Some currencies have been pretty stable recently - especially many of the Asian currencies - and others, like the Australian dollar, have not shown much decline in Baht terms. So, if the country can enjoy a degree of stability in the eyes of foreign governments, tourists from those countries should eventually be returning.

 

As for the medium-term future, it seems to be the general view that most European currencies are unlikely to recover soon due to the enormous debt burdens. The US$, too, seems destined eventually to fall. All of which is another reason for bar owners etc. to work a lot harder on attracting Asian clientele.