A few Good Men: Sex and Prostitution in Gay Thailand

[Guest Winai]

So going back to my original post, based on what I've experienced and learned over the years, I wouldn't wish or hope for any young Thai person to enter the sex industry. Not a serve, just a reply.

 

Thank you for that. Thoughtful and exquisitely written. It's great to see younger Asian men sharing their thoughts on the Thai scene although you don't have to be young or Asian to show the kind of empathy you have for the Thai boys. Empathy is empathy and is neither Eastern nor Western, Buddhist nor Christian. I'm sure you hit a few raw nerves with your candour judging from the reactionary and very personal replies that followed. Not surprising, given that prostitution in one form or another plays a significant part in the lives of many westerners retired in Thailand.

 

Would you hope for your "sexy" son or grandson to sell his arse in Pattaya to someone you might have gone to school with? As a "Fan of Thailand", do you hope for her young men and women to enter an industry that carries with it great health and emotional risks - an industry in a Third World country where those in the profession are afforded practically no rights and protection from the authorities? An industry which is still illegal the last time I checked?

 

The short answer is no. I'm not a destitute farmer from Isan. I'm well travelled, reasonably well off and as it so happens have a great nephew who's 20. He's turning out to be a stunning young man and the idea of seeing him or any of his "hot" friends on a go go stage with old men like me leering at him puts me off. I admit it. I have no problems leering at young Thai men in the shortest of white shorts. NO shorts even better. I convince myself it's OK because they are poor and have no other option: they are not family, they don't speak my language, they are DIFFERENT. Moreover, I'm putting food on their table. What moral, cultural or ethical basis leads me to that conclusion I don't know but I do know it makes me feel good. I'm just goin with the flow. If the other old fogies are gettin some why shouldn't I. I try not to dwell on it too much until a post like yours comes along once in a long while and prick me on the side.

 

And I agree about the health and emotional risks that come with having so many transient sexual partners. I was a social worker in two major Australian cities for 30 years and used to see many "victims" of the industry. I guess that makes me the biggest hypocrite around! I'd say the psychological damage far outweighs the physical damage but in Sydney I was attached to a unit that dealt with sex workers who were victims of sex crimes (yes it happens!) and it was very hard to go to work everyday. This was in Australia where we had the support systems to deal with this. I understand the problem is worse in Thailand where the rate of HIV infection among sex workers is the highest in the world. And we don't know about the degree of psychological damage because it is not even recognised in Thai culture as I understand it.

 

What I don't understand though is the desperate need of these "liberals" (I don't know what else to call them) to rationalise their good times in Thailand in terms of falling within Thai/Buddhist cultural norms. If they were truly liberal and free why do they crave acceptance so much. It's like an athiest forcing every Christian to give up their beliefs which shows that they still care very much about why/how a Christian thinks. Beware if you don't support their "liberal" views: you're too "western" (see the irony). Well fuck, the last time I checked I had a western name, a western passport, western skin with wrinkles, warts and all and western money to enjoy life in Thailand. I'm a westerner! Sure, I'm making efforts to understand THai culture and their way of doing things but I don't hate myself that much to deny everything about my heritage. Well ok I don't like what I see when I step out of the shower and look in the mirror in morning but there's nothing much I can do about that. I think the "liberals" are the ones with the heavy guilt on their shoulders as seen by this need to lash out at everyone who disagrees with their views on prostitution as a way of castigating their own "sins". Very soon they'll start scratching a big "W" (for Western) on anyone who has a less than flattering view of the sex industry.

[Guest Winai]

I confess to also being offended by your assumption that relationships established between a sex worker and a customer can not be based on mutual love, shared caring, and a mutual desire for security. My boyfriend of 11 years (duration, not age) seems to be most of what I could hope to find and I hope I am the same to him.

 

Offended? Over what was said on an anonymous posting board? If you need approval from Maurice or anyone else for your relationship then perhaps you're the one with self-esteem issues. If this offends you, how do you deal with the looks and whispers when you're out of Pattaya (yes people talk and snigger) or do you think they are all admiring the emperor and his wife's new clothese?

[Guest]

how do you deal with the looks and whispers when you're out of Pattaya

 

My Motto. "As long as they are talking about me."

 

Winai. Let me be the first to welcome you. You are a new poster who joined only today and your contributions to this thread have been very passionate. We welcome you with open arms and look forward to more comments from you on many topics.

[Guest RichLB]

Offended? Over what was said on an anonymous posting board? If you need approval from Maurice or anyone else for your relationship then perhaps you're the one with self-esteem issues. If this offends you, how do you deal with the looks and whispers when you're out of Pattaya (yes people talk and snigger) or do you think they are all admiring the emperor and his wife's new clothese?

It's remarkable how your views and styles mirror those of Maurice. But I will lay that suspicion aside.

 

I don't believe I have asked, or even wanted Maurice's approval. He and I, and now you, hold very different world views and I suspect my approval of him would be desired as much as his would be by me. As to the "looks as whispers" about me when I am out of Pattaya, I assume they are complimentary. I have lived here for over a decade and am lucky enough to have a wide circle of friends - both Thai and farang; both rich and poor - and have no reason to believe they would say anything about me behind my back which they do not say to my face.

[Guest RichLB]

 

I admit it. I have no problems leering at young Thai men in the shortest of white shorts. NO shorts even better. I convince myself it's OK because they are poor and have no other option: they are not family, they don't speak my language, they are DIFFERENT. Moreover, I'm putting food on their table. What moral, cultural or ethical basis leads me to that conclusion I don't know but I do know it makes me feel good. I'm just goin with the flow. If the other old fogies are gettin some why shouldn't I. I try not to dwell on it too much until a post like yours comes along once in a long while and prick me on the side.

 

I appreciate the candor in your confessional, but that makes it no less elitist and hypocritical. Maybe your point of view would change if you were able to see that these Thai guys are, in fact, much the same as you.

 

And I agree about the health and emotional risks that come with having so many transient sexual partners. I was a social worker in two major Australian cities for 30 years and used to see many "victims" of the industry. I guess that makes me the biggest hypocrite around! I'd say the psychological damage far outweighs the physical damage

You are quite correct about the health risks inherent in the sex trade. But, when assessing the psychological damage you fear, remember this is not Australia. In the West we attach a moral component to sex. this does not seem to be the case in Thailand. The best analogy I've been able to come up with (and i apologize n advance) is that "prostitution" is analogous to farting - not a good thing, but not morally objectionable.

 

 

What I don't understand though is the desperate need of these "liberals" (I don't know what else to call them) to rationalise their good times in Thailand in terms of falling within Thai/Buddhist cultural norms.

Perhaps, they have a better understanding of Thai culture than you do and it isn't rationalization at all. Something for you to think about.

 

Well fuck, the last time I checked I had a western name, a western passport, western skin with wrinkles, warts and all and western money to enjoy life in Thailand. I'm a westerner!

Exactly. Although, you might want to be less hard on yourself about those wrinkles and warts.

 

 

I think the "liberals" are the ones with the heavy guilt on their shoulders as seen by this need to lash out at everyone who disagrees with their views on prostitution as a way of castigating their own "sins".

Got a little wound up on that one, heh? Do you think it's possible that those of us who see "prostitution" as a legitimate service merely hold different values from yours? Oddly, as I read this thread (and others on the same topic on other boards) it seems to be those who seek to condemn the sex trade who are the most likely to "lash out" and "castigate." Attributing motives (eg, rationalizing their own sins) seems self serving and an example of the very castigation you condemn.

[Guest BeingThai]

Not a serve, just a reply.

Touch

[PattayaMale]

While I respect the right of all of us to post our views, as interesting as this topic may be, this is one topic that, in my view, remains shrouded by religion whether expressed or not.

 

Reasons given like poverty, drugs, contracts, self esteem are used to justify different arguments. I have personally known people from wealthy families, college students who graduated and did very well in their careers, those that truly liked sex with much older people, and those that did it for survival.

 

So it is hard for me to see what the big deal or controversy is. And truthfully, I don't really care what others think. I just don't require or needs anyones' permission. Do what you want. I don't think you will have any affect on the world's "oldest profession".

[KhorTose]

I have read these reports and watched a documentary on TV recently. There is no evidence that Versace knew Cunanan.

 

Give me a break. I guess I, and all the newspapers, and the cops who interviewed Cunanan's friends got it all wrong. If anyone cares they can look it up and make there own decision. By the way Oswald did not kill Kennedy, and it is all a plot. (For the dense out there the last sentence is a joke.)

[kokopelli]

Maybe I missed something. All I see is that you disagree with me and that you wouldn't want your Thai boyfriend to sleep with a farang. Is that all you wanted to express?

 

Yes, that is all. I would think that any farang in a relationship with a Thai would not want their bf to continue "working" for money in the sex trade. I don't think that their reasons for not wanting their bf continue as a sex worker has anything to do with their "hang ups" regarding prostitution.

I

[Gaybutton]

Yes, that is all. I would think that any farang in a relationship with a Thai would not want their bf to continue "working" for money in the sex trade.

That's what I think too. Part of my post included, "once the prostitute becomes their boyfriend, they don't want other farang to touch them."

 

Where's the part where we disagree?

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Here are a few excerpts from various websites:

 

Q: Most importantly, do you know the connection between Gianni and the psycho?

 

A: Lots of theories abound. Cunanen had never been in the house, and they were not friends. He had never worked for the company. If by pure chance they had met at a party somewhere it was merely someone introducing him to Gianni who being an extremely polite and approachable man would have said hello. no more no less.....

 

MIAMI BEACH, Fla. Five months and hundreds of interviews after Gianni Versace was slain, the answer to why the fashion designer was gunned down remains buried with his killer, Andrew Cunanan.

 

Police here on Tuesday closed their investigation into the July 15 slaying, stating they had no idea why Cunanan shot Versace on the steps of the designer's mansion.

 

"The real answer to that went down with the ship, so to speak, when Andrew Cunanan committed suicide," Police Chief Richard Barreto said. Cunanan, 27, shot himself a week after Versace's death. Investigators believe

[Guest RichLB]

I don't have any hangups about prostitution but surely would not want my Thai friend to be sleeping with other farang for money.

Never having understood the practice of monogamy, you bring up a befuddling conundrum for me. I, too, would not want my boyfriend sleeping with other farangs. I have no problem with him having outside adventures with other Thais (although i don't want to hear about it), but I object to any with another farang. I can come up with rationaliztions to explain this inconsistancy, but none of them feel right. Does anyone else have the same reactions and an explanation for them?

[Guest mlomker]

I would ask why is a sex job any worse then many other jobs in the world?

 

It's not like you meet a lot of out-of-work guys with masters degrees working at the bar. What else does he think they are going to do? They are only qualified for 30 baht/hr jobs.

 

I have 'bar friends' that I help out. I sponsor a kid through PSKSP. If I lived there I'd undoubtedly end up with a boyfriend and educate or otherwise assist him and the people that he cares about.

 

I think we appreciate the idealism but many of us are pragmatists. Keep your little part of the world in good shape and somebody else will have to do the rest!

 

Does anyone else have the same reactions and an explanation for them?

 

Insecurity. The things that you think your boyfriend finds most attractive in you must be things that another farang could offer. None of us like competition. A Thai probably can't compete on those fronts so you aren't worried about them.

[Guest FanOfThailand]

Never having understood the practice of monogamy, you bring up a befuddling conundrum for me. I, too, would not want my boyfriend sleeping with other farangs. I have no problem with him having outside adventures with other Thais (although i don't want to hear about it), but I object to any with another farang. I can come up with rationaliztions to explain this inconsistancy, but none of them feel right. Does anyone else have the same reactions and an explanation for them?

 

I think the reason you wouldn't want your Thai BF sleeping with other farangs is the possibility of losing him to another farang. There is less of a chance of the BF leaving for another Thai.

[Smiles]

" ... I have no problem with him having outside adventures with other Thais (although i don't want to hear about it), but I object to any with another farang. I can come up with rationaliztions to explain this inconsistancy, but none of them feel right. Does anyone else have the same reactions and an explanation for them? ... "

Forget the rationalisations.

I think the answer is rather obvious: there are lots of farangs in the sea ... many of them (I'd speculate) more handsome, more pleasant, more wealthy, better in the sack, than you (or I, or any of us). Given that reality, he's a potential threat to what you have now.

 

A fling with another Thai on the other hand is much less of a threat (statistically wise) ~ except perhaps in the 'handsome' department

Given that reality, you can allow yourself the luxury of not being overly concerned that your guy will be swept away.

 

Somewhat of an elitist perspective you might say, but probably the cold hard truth nonetheless.

[Guest Winai]

Winai. Let me be the first to welcome you. We welcome you with open arms and look forward to more comments from you on many topics.

 

Thank you GayThailand. I've been lurking for sometime now and enjoy reading your posts. I used to post on the Sawatdee forum but I had to go to back to Australia for personal reasons and lost touch with Thailand for a while. Now I'm back, hopefully for good. It's always nice to receive a welcome hug from a handsome and RICH younger man. Luv ya in those sexy bicycle shorts.

[Guest Winai]

IHe and I, and now you, hold very different world views and I suspect my approval of him would be desired as much as his would be by me. As to the "looks as whispers" about me when I am out of Pattaya, I assume they are complimentary. I have lived here for over a decade and am lucky enough to have a wide circle of friends - both Thai and farang; both rich and poor - and have no reason to believe they would say anything about me behind my back which they do not say to my face.

 

That's the spirit Rich old boy! It's better for our hearts (in more ways than one ) As for our world views, I've always been entertained by yours as they always seem so out-of-wordly. Keep 'em coming!

[Guest cdnmatt]

Funny (ok, not really) story about prostitution...

 

Kim (BF) has a 19yo friend in KK who works at a coffee shop in town. The three of us have hung out a few times together. He decided he'd like a farang, the same as Kim has, and figured he'd head down to Pattaya in search of one. I made sure Kim explained things to him, but he was pretty persistent. Scrounged up the 2500 baht he had saved, and hopped onto a bus to Pattaya.

 

Turns out the person who was going to share a room with is a yabba addict, so it simply didn't work out. Now, he's completely stranded in Pattaya with no place to stay (this was two days ago, so maybe he has a place now), and can't afford the 600 baht for the bus ticket home. I told Kim to send him 1000 baht via Western Union, but Kim said no.

 

Actually, quite a few of Kim's friends now want to head to Pattaya, quickly grab a farang like me, and head back up to Khon Kaen. Kim now explains everything to them in detail, and also gives the story of his friend currently stranded in Pattaya, so everyone has decided not to go so far.

[Guest Winai]

Never having understood the practice of monogamy, you bring up a befuddling conundrum for me. I, too, would not want my boyfriend sleeping with other farangs. I have no problem with him having outside adventures with other Thais (although i don't want to hear about it), but I object to any with another farang. I can come up with rationaliztions to explain this inconsistancy, but none of them feel right. Does anyone else have the same reactions and an explanation for them?

 

Could it be Christian guilt? Thank Mother Earth that I haven't got the same problem but then my mother was a Pagan and my dad is an athiest so no hang ups about Thai boyfriends with farangs here. My boyfriend is 30 years younger than me and he does like young farang/Thais. I have no problem with that as we have an open relationship and adopt a don't-ask-don't-tell policy when we are apart. All I ask of him is to play safe and he expects the same of me. Anyway, why look for an explanation/rationalisation? If you find your answer, will you then stop having this problem and be OK with your bf fucking other farangs?

[kokopelli]

Never having understood the practice of monogamy, you bring up a befuddling conundrum for me. I, too, would not want my boyfriend sleeping with other farangs. I have no problem with him having outside adventures with other Thais (although i don't want to hear about it), but I object to any with another farang. I can come up with rationaliztions to explain this inconsistancy, but none of them feel right. Does anyone else have the same reactions and an explanation for them?

 

I am in agreement with you on this matter. Simply stated, I am supporting him so there is no need or reason for him to continue as a paid sex worker. I paid him to leave the trade so surely would not want him to continue. There is no inconsistency is that.

[Guest Winai]

I am in agreement with you on this matter. Simply stated, I am supporting him so there is no need or reason for him to continue as a paid sex worker. I paid him to leave the trade so surely would not want him to continue. There is no inconsistency is that.

 

No I think Rich is afraid that his boyfriend might sleep with other farang for free thereby adding insult to injury from his perspective.

[kokopelli]

That's what I think too. Part of my post included, "once the prostitute becomes their boyfriend, they don't want other farang to touch them."

 

Where's the part where we disagree?

 

Ah,I see! What I was disagreeing with was the "because of their own hang ups about prostitution". I don't think a farang has to have hang ups about prostitution as a reason for not wanting the boy friend remain as a sex worker. Neither altruistic nor selfish, just human nature and common sense. But maybe some others feel differently?

[Guest Winai]

Insecurity. The things that you think your boyfriend finds most attractive in you must be things that another farang could offer. None of us like competition. A Thai probably can't compete on those fronts so you aren't worried about them.

 

Except in the looks department as Smiles pointed out and there is always the "danger" that Rich's boyfriend might hook up with a farang with the looks and money like your handsome self, mlomker.

[kokopelli]

No I think Rich is afraid that his boyfriend might sleep with other farang for free thereby adding insult to injury from his perspective.

 

 

Funny, but I don't think Rich has anything to worry about. A Thai partner might well want to have a fling with another Thai in his age range or possibly some young hot farang, but not with the "run of the mill" farang that is often seen in Pattaya or other such areas in Thailand.

[Guest RichLB]

Ok, since we're still on the topic of prostitution, I have another question concerning preferences. Being in an open, long term, and loving relationship, if I off a guy from a bar I don't look for promises of enduring love, sweet mutterings of affection, or heart wrenching tales of personal problems. I'm merely seeking a short fulfilling sexual experience - hopefully for both of us. I know the guys much prefer snaring a long term farang, but making it clear I am not one of those has been difficult for me. So, a couple questions for you guys. Do you like the guys fawning affection and trying to convince you how sexy, attractive, and wonderful you are? If you don't how do you communicate that you only want a fun sexual experience and nothing more?