A few Good Men: Sex and Prostitution in Gay Thailand

[Gaybutton]

that other favourite chestnut of yours

Another "chestnut"?

 

 

I still have a sense of humour

Nurse (taking care of Willy Clark after his heart attack): "I have a wonderful sense of humor!"

 

Willy Clark: "If you nurse like your sense of humor, I won't make it to Thursday."

 

- Walter Matthau, 'The Sunshine Boys'

[Guest]

Please girls, stop fighting!

Those are fighting words.

 

Finally, like it or not, GB is correct that prostitution does not have the terrible onus in Thailand that it does in the west. You may dismiss this, but I definitely think it is an important factor in many boys and girls willingly deciding to enter and stay in this profession.

I agree.

 

I agree fully with your comments, Khor Tose. Too often some of us analyze the Thai scene using the cultural and moral blinders we acquired in another culture.

 

He did put it very well and quite eloquently.

 

All I'm saying is that, instead of wishing or hoping that more young Thai men and women enter the sex industry, we should hope for the improvement of the socio-economic conditions of the poor. In my opinion, people who love Thailand should rejoice when fewer Thais enter the sex industry and find alternative employment elsewhere.

 

I can assure you that I have a great deal of experience in the sex trade and it is not just as a client. Having worked and consulted with thousands of escorts in the USA over the years, I have a very unique perspective on the sex industry. I don't think it is a bad thing. You may think that is for my own personal desires and pleasure but I am quite happy with the life I have with the BF and a few (very few) others I see on a trip here. Working with boys in the USA for so long I was able to see many that needed it for socio-economic reasons and many that did not. They all knew that being a high end escort in NYC would bring them the cash the needed to help their dreams come true. Some were horrible at the job and lasted only a call or two and some loved it with a passion and still do it some 15 years later. One boy I met was a cute Cuban guy who loved older men. I saw the kind of men he picked up in bars (me for one and it was not a hooker bar but just a gay bar). I suggested after several months of great sex that he try the business. He was a stock broker and very intelligent and he did. He loved it and he would call his pimp to ask for a call because he was so horny and for him he no longer had the need for the bars.

 

I will admin that he is an exception to the rule. But, the boys I met over the years (not as a client) all said that it was the best thing they did to advance their careers. Few of them regretted it. That was in NYC. I don't think many here are that different. I am sure the need for cash is much more in Thailand than in the USA. But, there are jobs out there for most of them. It is just not the kind of work they want to do or the hours they put would have to put in to come even close to making the kind of money they can make in a bar.

 

I don't think hoping that sexy boys will flock to the bars is a bad thing. I hope they all know what they are getting into and if they do, I have no problem with their chosen profession. What two consenting adults do is their own business and no one else's and I don't think anyone has a right to judge them because of it.

[Guest mauRICE]

I can assure you that I have a great deal of experience in the sex trade and it is not just as a client. Having worked and consulted with thousands of escorts in the USA over the years, I have a very unique perspective on the sex industry...I don't think hoping that sexy boys will flock to the bars is a bad thing...I have no problem with their chosen profession.

 

Fair enough. At least now we know where you're coming from.

[Guest RichLB]

Maurice, your inputs suggest you greatly exaggerate your understanding of Thais and Thai culture. From what I've been able to pick up, you are an occasional visitor (albeit for protracted periods of time) and come from a priveleged background as divorced from the rural Thai experience as the farang you castigate. I suspect you use your Asian heritage as some evidence of empathetic understanding, but it seems to me you are applying values more influenced by a privileged family position, religious morality, and a patina of superiority I find distasteful.

 

I would be interested to know what you define as prostitution. Is a woman who prefers dating a rich man to a poor man a hooker? Would you disuade your son from marrying someone with only a grade school education out of fear she was taking advantage of his position and therefore, a prostitute?

 

I also detect considerable anti sexism in your inputs. Sex is not the ugly, exploitive, activity you characterize it to be - even with a partner far from your ideal. Nor do most sex workers end up with AIDS, addicted to drugs, or street trollers. In my view, sex workers provide a valuable service and if you divorce puritan ethics from it, a not unpleasant way to earn easy money. Hell, I wish I could have been as assured of ready sex (with anybody!!) when I was their age. So my second question is, what do you find abhorrent about the sex trade? Please, refrain from giving me anecdotes out of the Christian (or Muslim) fundamentalist claptrap.

 

I confess to also being offended by your assumption that relationships established between a sex worker and a customer can not be based on mutual love, shared caring, and a mutual desire for security. My boyfriend of 11 years (duration, not age) seems to be most of what I could hope to find and I hope I am the same to him. We are not the only such relationship of long standing to develop out of an initial attraction found in a gogo bar. I, of course, don't know the kind of guys you gleaned your insights from, but I suspect they are not typical or, more likely, they fed you what they believed you wanted to hear. I find most Thai sex workers (with some exceptions) to be pretty good guys and surprisingly honest if you withhold a judgmental and don't "do took" them, I'd be curious about how you characterize your current relationship and where you encountered each other.

[Guest]

Fair enough. At least now we know where you're coming from.

 

An enlightened perspective? Thank you. That was sweet to notice.

[Guest mauRICE]

From what I've been able to pick up, you are an occasional visitor (albeit for protracted periods of time) and come from a priveleged background as divorced from the rural Thai experience as the farang you castigate. I suspect you use your Asian heritage as some evidence of empathetic understanding, but it seems to me you are applying values more influenced by a privileged family position, religious morality, and a patina of superiority I find distasteful.

 

 

So, what you're implying is that one should be poor and uneducated to have a point of view? Then what the hell are you doing here? Or is it only Asians who are educated and independent that you are resentful of? Would it fit better with your conscience and sensitivities if I were an ignorant and needy Asian? It sounds to me to me that I'm not the one with the superiority complex here. Try reading Edward Said's Orientalism while you're having your three o'clock tiffin.

 

I, of course, don't know the kind of guys you gleaned your insights from, but I suspect they are not typical or, more likely, they fed you what they believed you wanted to hear.

 

Oh please, you don't even know what constitutes Chonburi, where you live. And of course, what the guys tell you is gospel. Not what you want to hear. No siree.

[kokopelli]

 

While some farang may get their Thai boyfriends out of the so-called prostitution business for altruistic reasons, I believe the real reasons most get them out, if indeed most really do get them out, are because of their own hang-ups about prostitution and that once the prostitute becomes their boyfriend, they don't want other farang to touch them.

 

Just started reading this thread and came across the quote above.

 

I don't have any hangups about prostitution but surely would not want my Thai friend to be sleeping with other farang for money. Perhaps you speak from your own personal experience but you don't speak for me or "most" unless you can back up your generalization with facts.

[Guest FanOfThailand]

 

I would be interested to know what you define as prostitution. Is a woman who prefers dating a rich man to a poor man a hooker? Would you disuade your son from marrying someone with only a grade school education out of fear she was taking advantage of his position and therefore, a prostitute?

 

I also detect considerable anti sexism in your inputs. Sex is not the ugly, exploitive, activity you characterize it to be - even with a partner far from your ideal. Nor do most sex workers end up with AIDS, addicted to drugs, or street trollers. In my view, sex workers provide a valuable service and if you divorce puritan ethics from it, a not unpleasant way to earn easy money. Hell, I wish I could have been as assured of ready sex (with anybody!!) when I was their age. So my second question is, what do you find abhorrent about the sex trade? Please, refrain from giving me anecdotes out of the Christian (or Muslim) fundamentalist claptrap.

 

RichLB said it much better than I could but it is exactly my point that sex is not bad IMHO. Prostitution is not a career but a job. It is a job that can be used to end the cycle of poverty. A job is a job.

 

Would I want my son/daughter to take a job as a prostitute?

 

If I was a poor rice farmer barely able to feed my family with little or no prospect of a better life for my children/grandchildren the answer is yes. Sending money home (as most do) could be used to help the younger siblings get an education or learn a trade to get a higher paying career to end the cycle of poverty.

 

Prostitutes working in Pattaya/Bangkok or wherever are exposed to other cultures/languages they would not experience in their rural villages. Seeing others outside of the rice farming community might even give them the ambition to pursue goals beyond the rice fields, not that there is anything wrong with rice farming as a career IMHO.

[Gaybutton]

Perhaps you speak from your own personal experience but you don't speak for me or "most" unless you can back up your generalization with facts.

What makes you think I'm trying to speak for anyone other than myself? I wrote "I believe the real reasons most get them out . . ."

 

That means I'm expressing my own personal opinion, not facts. I'm sorry, I thought that would have been quite clear. Apparently, it wasn't.

[Guest RichLB]

So, what you're implying is that one should be poor and uneducated to have a point of view?

I implied no such thing. What I did say is that your bias seems to me to prevent you from understanding what you see. Viewing the world from your perceived position of superiority has blinded you to the feelings, thoughts, and realities of both Thais and farang alike.

 

Try reading Edward Said's Orientalism while you're having your three o'clock tiffin.

Oh please, Maurice. I really don't think you want to get into sharing reading lists. Your pedanticism actually illustrates the point I'm making about your perceptual limitations. try living life. not reading about it and usurping the opinions of others.

 

And, Maurice, I asked you three simple questions which I notice you have elected not to answer. I'm really not interested in annotated references in response. I'd like to know what YOU think.

[Gaybutton]

simple questions which I notice you have elected not to answer.

He didn't answer mine either, but that's just an old chestnut . . .

[Guest mauRICE]

And, Maurice, I asked you three simple questions which I notice you have elected not to answer. I'm really not interested in annotated references in response. I'd like to know what YOU think.

 

Why do you care about why I think? You've already pegged my views as borne out of my "perceived position of superiority" and "pedanticism" and whatever I have to say would be viewed through that jaundiced prism of yours. It's like that pop psych professor at a two-bit college asking you what YOU think - "hey, you're all college freshmen now and I want to hear YOUR views" - and promptly rattles off his repository of rehearsed anecdotes from years of babbling to himself and living in his own bubble. I'm not saying that you are, as I don't know you from Adam and wouldn't make any presumptions about your background, but that's just what you said sounds like.

 

But, as always, I will ignore comments of a personal/patronising nature as I've been doing over the last eleven years. I wouldn't go so far as to scream "personal attack" and demand censorship as some do, but neither am I going to dignify them. I do suggest, however, a re-education of sorts for people who seem to live their lives within the pineapple cocoon of Pattaya, and to resist, hard as it may be, to transpose their limited interactions (transactions?) with Thais there into some form of national character. Otherwise Thais who don't need you and therefore not under any pressure to tell you what you want to hear, might think of you as just another ugly farang with an open purse complex.

[Bob]

I do suggest, however, a re-education of sorts for people who seem to live their lives within the pineapple cocoon of Pattaya, and to resist, hard as it may be, to transpose their limited interactions (transactions?) with Thais there into some form of national character. Otherwise Thais who don't need you and therefore not under any pressure to tell you what you want to hear, might think of you as just another ugly farang with an open purse complex.

 

Why or how you think is fairly obvious. It's just puzzling why you seem reluctant to answer the questions legitimately posed. No problem,I guess, as that's your choice.

 

You imply you have substantial interactions with Thais outside of the bar scene and I'm wondering if that is truly accurate. If I may be so bold as to ask a question, how often are you in Thailand and where do you stay during those times?

 

I'm not within what you call the Pattaya cocoon (currently spend 6-8 months in Thailand and I've been to Pattaya for two days within the last 5 years) but I still do not share your rather western views of the sex industry. If by re-education you mean I should re-adopt the biblical claptrap that shackles (my view) most westerners, please count me out (been there, done that, don't buy it). I'm not in the game of rating the nobility of professions but I certainly don't consider those involved in prostitution by choice any more or less morally or culturally superior to any other profession. But, if I had to choose between hanging out with somebody from the country-club elite or a prostitute plying his or her trade, give me the whore any old day as I find them a bit more down to earth and genuine.

 

Oh, one more question (if you will). Given your views of prostitutes, I'm presuming then that you've elected not to participate in that scene?

[kokopelli]

What makes you think I'm trying to speak for anyone other than myself? I wrote "I believe the real reasons most get them out . . ."

 

That means I'm expressing my own personal opinion, not facts. I'm sorry, I thought that would have been quite clear. Apparently, it wasn't.

 

Fair enough. But I believe you are wrong, which is why I was expressing my personal opinion.

[Gaybutton]

Fair enough. But I believe you are wrong, which is why I was expressing my personal opinion.

Ok, but I don't see where your opinion is expressed. I'm still not clear on what your opinion is. What is your opinion?

[kokopelli]

Ok, but I don't see where your opinion is expressed. I'm still not clear on what your opinion is. What is your opinion?

 

I thought I made it quite clear in my post, but apparently not.

[Guest RichLB]

Why do you care about why I think? You've already pegged my views as borne out of my "perceived position of superiority" and "pedanticism" and whatever I have to say would be viewed through that jaundiced prism of yours.

A fair question and I will answer it in hopes that you will answer mine. Over the years you have been critical and judgmental about both farang and Thai sex workers. Your views, to me, seem little different from those of right wing fundamentalists. Since I have always avoided such bigotry in the past, I thought this might be an opportunity to understand the thinking of people who see the world as you do. Hence, my questions.

 

To refresh your memory and save you the trouble of going back to find them, they were:

1. How do you define prostitution and how is it differentiated from the marriage goals of putting the financial well being of a partner into the mix?

 

2. What do you find abhorrent about sex engaged in for fun or profit?

 

3. How did you find your current partner? I admit this is a baiting question. Firstly, I wondered if your attitudes had prevented you from finding a significant other. And, secondly, I wondered if you presented your family position, educational achievements, or financial condition as an inducement for commitment (ie, prostitution under the cloak of acceptability).

 

To characterize this curiosity as a personal attack seems overly defensive, to me. You have expressed strong views about both Thais and the farang who love them and being asked to share the source of your opinions should not be considered an invasion.

[Gaybutton]

I thought I made it quite clear in my post, but apparently not.

Maybe I missed something. All I see is that you disagree with me and that you wouldn't want your Thai boyfriend to sleep with a farang. Is that all you wanted to express?

[KhorTose]

I can assure you that I have a great deal of experience in the sex trade and it is not just as a client. Having worked and consulted with thousands of escorts in the USA over the years, I have a very unique perspective on the sex industry. I don't think it is a bad thing.

 

Really????? One reason I have always been for the legalization of prostitution is so it can be regulated like any other business. I am sure that the top end of the escort business works fairly well for both the client and the escort. Of course we will have to forget about Versache and the deaths that were spawned by that tete-a-tete, but what about the lower end of the business? Drugs, AIDS, venereal disease, and pimps who brutalize their girls (boys) and introduce them to drugs to keep them under their control? I really do not think you have had much experience with this kind of prostitute, or you would know had sad and how bad their lives are. In the USA today, because we do not legalize and regulate prostitution, I am talking about the majority of the female prostitutes. I do not want to end prostitution but make sure the people who are in it are safe and are in it willingly. In Thailand today we have some clubs that recruit the boys from the farms and make them sign contracts to work as bar boys. Their parents are paid up front and the boys cannot leave until the contract is paid up. I know everyone here has had experience with boys on YABA, and I have listened to many Farangs complain about how listlessly the boys dance on the stage, etc. Does anyone ask why? Could it be that some of the boys really do not want to be prostitute, but economics leaves them no choice? No, while I am all for prostitution of the willing, I want to make sure it is the willing. Until all the boys and girls who are into prostitution are there because they want to be prostitutes, I will never call prostitution benign. For those who are willing, and there are many, viva la willing.

[Guest tdperhs]

In terms of this thread, I have become a clich

[Guest lvdkeyes]

Of course we will have to forget about Versache and the deaths that were spawned by that tete-a-tete

Would you care to explain this comment?

[KhorTose]

Would you care to explain this comment?

 

Old news--google it--short answer is that one of the high end Hollywood escorts went on a killing rampage because he felt he had been made promises that were not kept. One of his last, and apparent main targets was Versache in Miami, Florida.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

You had better check out the facts about the murder of Versace.

[KhorTose]

You had better check out the facts about the murder of Versace.

 

I just did including the actual police reports on smoking gun dot com. What do you think is wrong?

Try murder versache or Versache murder on google.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I have read these reports and watched a documentary on TV recently. There is no evidence that Versace knew Cunanan.