A few Good Men: Sex and Prostitution in Gay Thailand

[TotallyOz]

HeyGay got it right when he said in one thread that there are some very sexy boys around in the bars. I am always on the look for hot guys and saw so many last night that I had to rest my tongue today from it wagging all night. I spent some time in about 8 GoGo bars last night and in every one of them, I found at least one hot sexy guy that I would love to spend more time with. I hope this trend keeps going and that more find their way to Pattaya.

[Gaybutton]

"The Marines are looking for a few good men. And YOU ain't it!"

 

- Clint Eastwood, 'Heartbreak Ridge'

[Guest HeyGay]

Yes your right, I fell for 2 nice ones, when I was there, last week, be back again soon, to find them again, so more Motor bikes you have to buy, you must have a standing order for them, Does Amazon deliver, as Asia Books do on line, then you pay at 7/11 : No idea why they call it low season, it is great to have little or No farangs and lots on offer better now its rainy season, cooling down, was much to Hot for most?

[Guest mauRICE]

HeyGay got it right when he said in one thread that there are some very sexy boys around in the bars. I am always on the look for hot guys and saw so many last night that I had to rest my tongue today from it wagging all night. I spent some time in about 8 GoGo bars last night and in every one of them, I found at least one hot sexy guy that I would love to spend more time with. I hope this trend keeps going and that more find their way to Pattaya.

 

I hope this trend stops and that fewer and fewer young Thai men and women, be they sexy, fat or ugly, find their way to Pattaya and other fleshpots. I do not pretend to be half as jaidii as the many self-proclaimed jaidii farang on these message boards, but I still have enough respect for my fellow human being to not want them to enter prostitution. I understand that for some of them it is their only choice, but I would certainly not wish it upon them or "hope" that they would. Hope is such a beautiful word, full of faith and promise and to use it in the above context is incredibly ugly and selfish, in my opinion.

 

I do hope that the current political situation will bring about some change for the poor in Thailand. If young people in Malaysia, Singapore and Vietnam can dream, get an education and be independent in their body and thought, I don't see why Thai youth should be denied the same dream; there must be a better way to a better life than being 'sexy' and in service to opportunists. Yes, it is idyllic but ideals are what one strives and hopes for.

[Guest]

I still have enough respect for my fellow human being to not want them to enter prostitution.

 

Agreed. They told me last night that I was so sexy that they want to go with me for free. I think that ends the prostitution worries.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ

[Bob]

They told me last night that I was so sexy that they want to go with me for free.

 

 

Hmmmm.....the only thing I can think of is the Thai phrase "mao maak!"

[Guest FanOfThailand]

I hope this trend stops and that fewer and fewer young Thai men and women, be they sexy, fat or ugly, find their way to Pattaya and other fleshpots. I do not pretend to be half as jaidii as the many self-proclaimed jaidii farang on these message boards, but I still have enough respect for my fellow human being to not want them to enter prostitution. I understand that for some of them it is their only choice, but I would certainly not wish it upon them or "hope" that they would. Hope is such a beautiful word, full of faith and promise and to use it in the above context is incredibly ugly and selfish, in my opinion.

 

"respect for my fellow human being to not want them to enter prostitution"

 

I would ask why is a sex job any worse then many other jobs in the world? Why is it when sex is involved it is terrible, evil or what ever. Is it any worse than the maids job that cleans the toilet and makes the bed of the farang.

Yes it would be nice if everyone in the world could work at a job they love and are well paid for doing it but it would also be nice if there was world peace, no crime and an end to world hunger.

[Guest mauRICE]

I would ask why is a sex job any worse then many other jobs in the world? Why is it when sex is involved it is terrible, evil or what ever. Is it any worse than the maids job that cleans the toilet and makes the bed of the farang.

Yes it would be nice if everyone in the world could work at a job they love and are well paid for doing it but it would also be nice if there was world peace, no crime and an end to world hunger.

 

That's not the point. The point is you don't wish or hope that someone goes into prostitution. If you are a "Fan of Thailand" and the Thais or anyone for that matter, you wouldn't hope that they become prostitutes, or would you? Would you hope for your "sexy" son or grandson to sell his arse in Pattaya to someone you might have gone to school with? As a "Fan of Thailand", do you hope for her young men and women to enter an industry that carries with it great health and emotional risks - an industry in a Third World country where those in the profession are afforded practically no rights and protection from the authorities? An industry which is still illegal the last time I checked?

 

Most farang who have established relationships with sex workers have taken them out of the sex industry and then sought to give them a better life with educational opportunities as well as emotional and financial support. Why do they do that if prostitution is just another job? And yet there are quite a few farang whose Thai partners work in hospitality making beds and such - no one is in a hurry to make them quit their jobs. I'm not seeking to change world view here, but merely stating what is.

 

When I was just a little girl

I asked my mother, what will I be

Will I be pretty, will I be rich

Here's what she said to me.

 

Mai pen rai, mai pen rai

Whatever will be, will be

Just be a hoe on Beach Road

You're just a Thai

Don't you dare dream big

The future's not for us to see

A good hoe might bring world peace and end poverty

 

Doris Somchai Day, Fan of Thailand

[Gaybutton]

Why do they do that if prostitution is just another job?

Because they, as you are doing, look at it from the western point of view. You don't really need me to tell you that the Thai point of view is a different matter, do you?

 

While some farang may get their Thai boyfriends out of the so-called prostitution business for altruistic reasons, I believe the real reasons most get them out, if indeed most really do get them out, are because of their own hang-ups about prostitution and that once the prostitute becomes their boyfriend, they don't want other farang to touch them.

[Guest Kurt]

Agreed. They told me last night that I was so sexy that they want to go with me for free. I think that ends the prostitution worries.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ

Dear GayButton I like your answer and even more the video <Kurt

[Guest mauRICE]

While some farang may get their Thai boyfriends out of the so-called prostitution business for altruistic reasons, I believe the real reasons most get them out, if indeed most really do get them out, are because of their own hang-ups about prostitution and that once the prostitute becomes their boyfriend, they don't want other farang to touch them.

 

"So-called prostitution business"? What would you call it? So I gather you believe that GayThailand, Bob, yourself and many other farang that I know personally are doing it because of selfish, non-altruistic reasons?

[Guest mauRICE]

Because they, as you are doing, look at it from the western point of view. You don't really need me to tell you that the Thai point of view is a different matter, do you?

 

I love this old chestnut, a convenient feel-good self-protection shield frequently spouted by westerners, especially as regards exploitable situations in Thailand that benefit them. If they were so attuned to Thai thinking, why are so many of them against a better future that so many poor Thais are currently fighting for? What are they afraid of? God forbid these poor lads from Isaarn should start becoming independent and not be in servitude to them anymore. I think I shall start my own "I don't get it list" on the selective thinking of certain westerners.

[Guest]

"So-called prostitution business"? What would you call it? So I gather you believe that GayThailand, Bob, yourself and many other farang that I know personally are doing it because of selfish, non-altruistic reasons?

 

You don't know me personally. You may have met me. We may have even had drinks together. I may have even laughed at your jokes. You may think you know me. But, there are only 2 people in all of Thailand that actually know me. You my dear, are not one of them.

[Gaybutton]

I think I shall start my own "I don't get it list" on the selective thinking of certain westerners.

Yes, you should do just that - because it is perfectly obvious that you really don't get it. I'll give you due credit for an ability to twist people's words around to suit your own point of view, though.

 

Of course I call it prostitution. I have no reason to come up with a euphemism for it. The apparent major difference between you and me is that you see prostitution as something very negative. I see it as benign.

 

You call it an "old chestnut" when someone like me comes along and points out that the Thai way of thinking is different from the western point of view regarding prostitution. Call it what you want, but the Thai point of view really is different from the western point of view.

 

Now, while you're busy trying to tell us all about how horrible prostitution is, I suppose you would have us believe no part of your purpose for being in Thailand, whether past or present, ever had anything to do with partaking in Thailand's sex industry. You can claim that if you wish, but that would be about as believable as Rekers hiring the Rentboy.com guy solely for the purpose of carrying his luggage. Have you been in Thailand all this time rescuing these poor exploited boys from the terrible horrors of prostitution?

 

Do I indulge because of selfish, non-altruistic reasons? Yes. So does just about every other farang, gay or straight, who comes to Thailand and makes use of prostitutes. Are we bad people because of it? And, by the way, I can carry my own luggage . . .

 

I also think you know as well as I do that anyone working in the bars who doesn't wish to be there can just walk out the door any time he pleases.

 

Ok, your serve.

[Guest]

I suppose you would have us believe no part of your purpose for being in Thailand, whether past or present, ever had anything to do with partaking in Thailand's sex industry.

 

Hey, he said he knew me. Unless he is my pool boy at the Marriott there is ONLY one place he would have met me. I'll let you guess. It starts with a gay and ends with a bar.

[Guest mauRICE]

You don't know me personally. You may have met me. We may have even had drinks together. I may have even laughed at your jokes. You may think you know me. But, there are only 2 people in all of Thailand that actually know me. You my dear, are not one of them.

 

No, I don't know you personally and if your posts are any example of what you are, then I don't think I would want to. The Thai and farang that I know personally do not post on this board, as far as I know. These are friendships established over years of getting to know one another, through good and bad times, and they number a lot more than two. I do not buy them and they do not buy me.

 

The examples I mentioned are based on the stories of some of the posters on gay Thailand forums on what they've been doing over the years to make a better life for them and their partners.

[PattayaMale]

Not meaning to change the subject, but has anyone eaten at the Mantra? They have a great Sunday Buffet. It has everything you could imagine. I even think I saw a prostitute there. Very delicious

[Gaybutton]

No, I don't know you personally and if your posts are any example of what you are, then I don't think I would want to.

Oh, come on mauRICE. I've seen enough posts from you to know that you are fully capable of debating an issue without put-downs. I hope we, and whoever else may want to join in, can debate this issue without put-downs or insults.

 

I also think you know that GT often posts with tongue-in-cheek. Of course, it's usually an ass cheek, but what the hell . . .

[Guest]

No, I don't know you personally and if your posts are any example of what you are, then I don't think I would want to. The Thai and farang that I know personally do not post on this board, as far as I know. These are friendships established over years of getting to know one another, through good and bad times, and they number a lot more than two. I do not buy them and they do not buy me.

 

The examples I mentioned are based on the stories of some of the posters on gay Thailand forums on what they've been doing over the years to make a better life for them and their partners.

 

I appreciate the clarification. You seem like a great guy and I understand not wanting to get to know me. If I met me, I wouldn't want to know me either. However, I would like to know you. I am hurt, saddened and shocked by your statements. Give me a chance. Please.

 

I don't buy friends either. Would that not mean they were prostitutes? Remember, I am the one trying to take the out of the business according to you.

 

While I do tease with my writing at times, you do genuinely seem like a great guy. I do regret not meeting you but as you don't hang out in the slums like I do, I doubt that would ever be possible.

 

Not meaning to change the subject, but has anyone eaten at the Mantra? They have a great Sunday Buffet. It has everything you could imagine. I even think I saw a prostitute there. Very delicious

 

Love Mantra. Love it. A prostitute there? In Pattaya? You are kidding? PattayaMale, I think you too need to get your eyes checked. Mantra is a fine upstanding establishment and would never hire a former working boy.

 

Between you and I: was it the one with the tattoo?

[Guest mauRICE]

Yes, you should do just that - because it is perfectly obvious that you really don't get it. I'll give you due credit for an ability to twist people's words around to suit your own point of view, though.

 

Of course I call it prostitution. I have no reason to come up with a euphemism for it. The apparent major difference between you and me is that you see prostitution as something very negative. I see it as benign.

 

You call it an "old chestnut" when someone like me comes along and points out that the Thai way of thinking is different from the western point of view regarding prostitution. Call it what you want, but the Thai point of view really is different from the western point of view.

 

Now, while you're busy trying to tell us all about how horrible prostitution is, I suppose you would have us believe no part of your purpose for being in Thailand, whether past or present, ever had anything to do with partaking in Thailand's sex industry. You can claim that if you wish, but that would be about as believable as Rekers hiring the Rentboy.com guy solely for the purpose of carrying his luggage. Have you been in Thailand all this time rescuing these poor exploited boys from the terrible horrors of prostitution?

 

Do I indulge because of selfish, non-altruistic reasons? Yes. So does just about every other farang, gay or straight, who comes to Thailand and makes use of prostitutes. Are we bad people because of it? And, by the way, I can carry my own luggage . . .

 

I also think you know as well as I do that anyone working in the bars who doesn't wish to be there can just walk out the door any time he pleases.

 

Ok, your serve.

 

This is not a competition, even though you may read every post on these forums as a strike on the lawns of Wimbledon. And I don't need your credit or approval, as you are nobody to me, as I am to you. Had you been the target of the comments you made above, you would have no doubt raised that other favourite chestnut of yours, "it was a personal attack!" Thankfully, I still have a sense of humour and a healthy dose of self-confidence to not react in that way - it's all water off a duck's back to me. Otherwise, I'd end up being a pariah and despised in every forum I visit.

 

I was 25 when I first visited the gay bars. It wasn't my first visit to Thailand; I believe the first time was when I was four for a holiday at my grandmother's house in Songkhla. There have been many many visits and extended stays since then, including two year-long stays as a student of Thai anthropology in Bangkok and Chiang Mai. The point is, I got to know a bit about Thailand first before I was introduced to the bright and dizzying lights of the commercial sex industry.

 

I was only a couple of years older than the boys at the time - often the same age -

and had the same build and brown complexion as they did. It was fun initially but it also got old very quickly. The lack of age, language and cultural barrier meant the boys could speak freely to me and I didn't have the comfort of reality insulation that are available to farang. And what they told me, in addition to what I could see for myself, wasn't easy too stomach. Most didn't want to be there but felt that selling their bodies was probably the most lucrative option. "But you seem so happy," I told them. "Bpii, you look but you do not see," came the reply. "What twenty-year-old gay man dreams of an overweight, sixty-year-old, cigarette-stinking farang to sweep them off their feet?" Quite a few asked me to take them back with me. Some even resented me.

 

You know, it's funny how, over the years, I've been asked by Thai men in the business whether I have a farang sugar daddy supporting me. And I've never been offended by that because I know that they are so removed from the Thai mainstream that they have no concept of financial and intellectual independence through self-reliance and sheer hard work. Thai society is so rigidly stratified that these guys have no role models to follow. They think the only way out of Pattaya is through a one-way ticket purchased by a sugar daddy. As a sidebar, I used to remember Bangkok taxi drivers asking me whether my friends were farang or Japanese as they dropped me off at those grand one-acre-block houses in Thonglor and Onnut. Now they don't ask me that anymore because they know Thais live in those houses. They have awakened and are wearing red shirts.

 

Now, ten years later, many of those guys that I got to know from my flirtation with the bars have passed on from AIDS, alcohol or drug abuse. A tiny minority have managed to save some money and been able to pursue their goals. Others are still trolling the bars as freelancers, valiantly trying to mask their bulging waistlines and receding hairlines with a decade of delusion. The majority have returned home the same way they had been seduced by the neon lights of Pattaya - with nothing. It is a sad commentary on those who have taken this path and I am not yet old, desperate or cynical enough to be numbed by it or to callously call it 'benign'.

 

So going back to my original post, based on what I've experienced and learned over the years, I wouldn't wish or hope for any young Thai person to enter the sex industry. Not a serve, just a reply.

[Guest]

Not a serve, just a reply.

 

A very well thought out and well-worded reply at that. Thank you for the insight.

[Jason1988]

Please girls, stop fighting!

 

I don't enjoy reading this board when people argue about

pros and cons of prostitution.

 

It's the world's oldest profession for a reason.

And it will always be there no matter how well off

a country becomes.

 

Deal with it!

[KhorTose]

First off, I think Jason1988"s reply is rude as this is an important subject and there has been some very well thought out answers. However, this reply is for Maurice.

 

Wow, a really great thoughtful answer, but I find myself in a strange position of basically agreeing with GB on this. I have always been in Thailand looking for a long term relationship with a younger man. Luckily, I have found one with a young man (28) who has never been a money boy and who has had only three other BFs, all of whom, where older men. He really does like older men, and I am very lucky to have found him. However, before I found him, I too played around in massage parlors and go-go bars, and I have to agree with you that prostitution is not benign at all, but PLEASEEE we are not the villains. The boys and girls who enter this profession (the worlds oldest by most estimations) willingly do so because they do not have the opportunities elsewhere in Thailand to make a decent living. If there is a villain in this picture it is conditions in Thailand, and not the farangs who admittedly take advantage of these conditions. Maybe the boys do not want to sleep with us old farangs, but my experience is that they like and need the money and often bargain hard for a decent tip. There are some real jerks among us, but most farangs treat the boys very well, and a minority does get taken out of the profession by farangs. Oddly, it has been my experience that many I have tried to have a relationship with, did not want to quit what they were doing, as many think they can do better as they expect some fabulously wealthy sugar daddy to come along, and they do not want to settle for the average Joe. Finally, like it or not, GB is correct that prostitution does not have the terrible onus in Thailand that it does in the west. You may dismiss this, but I definitely think it is an important factor in many boys and girls willingly deciding to enter and stay in this profession.

 

 

[Bob]

I agree fully with your comments, Khor Tose. Too often some of us analyze the Thai scene using the cultural and moral blinders we acquired in another culture.

[Guest mauRICE]

this reply is for Maurice. Wow, a really great thoughtful answer,...and I have to agree with you that prostitution is not benign at all, but PLEASEEE we are not the villains. The boys and girls who enter this profession (the worlds oldest by most estimations) willingly do so because they do not have the opportunities elsewhere in Thailand to make a decent living. If there is a villain in this picture it is conditions in Thailand,

 

I don't disagree. All I'm saying is that, instead of wishing or hoping that more young Thai men and women enter the sex industry, we should hope for the improvement of the socio-economic conditions of the poor. In my opinion, people who love Thailand should rejoice when fewer Thais enter the sex industry and find alternative employment. No, this is not being 'westernised' or blinded by another culture, but simply to emulate Thais who are doing well as industrialised farmers, teachers, nurses, tradesmen and business owners. The role models and beaten paths are within Thailand, not the west, and foreigners who can't see this are the ones who are blind. Frankly, I find it an insult to the Thais when the suggestion is, however remote, that they are culturally bound to be whores. Have people here even ventured out of Pattaya and Silom to see that the majority of Thais are not prostitutes? Do they think terms like 'puuying khai tua', 'puuchai khai tua', 'karii' are honorifics?

 

Oddly, it has been my experience that many I have tried to have a relationship with, did not want to quit what they were doing, as many think they can do better as they expect some fabulously wealthy sugar daddy to come along, and they do not want to settle for the average Joe.

 

This is true; some of them are always holding out for something better but I think some are simply incapable of relationships as a result of years of emotional corruption in the 'benign' industry.

 

Luckily, I have found one with a young man (28) who has never been a money boy and who has had only three other BFs, all of whom, where older men. He really does like older men, and I am very lucky to have found him.

 

I'm happy for you. At 28, he's a grown man and I'm sure he's working very hard to earn his keep and achieve his goals. I know some farang's boyfriends who are in their thirties and still haven't graduated after eight years at university! Perhaps their farang could give them some guidance instead of perpetually using the culture crutch as an excuse.